Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Jan 31, 2020 19:28:05 GMT -5
i agree with the O.P. mostly. one tiny interjection. there are instances where a new born (in Spirit) does doubt if they are saved and might say, go down to altar call every Sunday to get prayer to get saved. Sunday after Sunday. and they may continue to do so until God asks them... what are you doing... I already saved you. We cant expect a babe in Christ to have the faith of a seasoned veteran. They have not even begun to walk and trust yet. I think its more beneficial for them to inquire about a specific moment where they had an encounter with God. if so point them in the direction of Him being Faithful and True. point them to deepening their relationship with God so that they may come to the faith that does not waiver... because they know. What i speak on is apart of each of our calling, regardless of if we be called to be a pastor or a prophet or a missionary. its edification of the body. its making disciples. its being a co-worker with God to build His kingdom. How awesome it is that He has given us such a privilege. eternity now. The Kingdom has truly come. Thank you for adding this part too . YES it is what we do . we comfort the feeble minded , by REMINDING THEM of all things Our LORD did say and teach , we do point them to TRUST in HIM . we are a co worker , fellow helper of the truth . Yep . Cletus is right . the reason i added it is because i see some churches so caught up in this is how it is... cut and dry... if you dont fit in this mold they basically run people off. not intentionally but it is abrasive, people who are unlearned yet and genuinely trying their best become discouraged and do not desire fellowship with that.
whats more important... getting it right and being totally perfect or giving grace? I think grace from us to our neighbor is a large slice of the getting it right pie.
I see churches so caught up in the whole this is how its done mold they end up loosing their joy and purpose. while doing it right is important look how much room for error there is from God to us.
If our labor is not in love we are missing the mark. what i speak on can be found in one of the seven letters to the churches in revelation. And dont get me wrong here, i do not say all this to point a finger at anyone... but i dont want to see wrong motives come because, well the flesh needs to be kept in check. we can even think we are doing things the right way but in Gods eyes it could be for the wrong reasons.
Neh 8:10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength. Neh 8:11 So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, Hold your peace, for the day is holy; neither be ye grieved. Neh 8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.
the joy of The LORD is our strength. THE JOY!
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Post by John on Jan 31, 2020 20:07:44 GMT -5
Thank you for adding this part too . YES it is what we do . we comfort the feeble minded , by REMINDING THEM of all things Our LORD did say and teach , we do point them to TRUST in HIM . we are a co worker , fellow helper of the truth . Yep . Cletus is right . the reason i added it is because i see some churches so caught up in this is how it is... cut and dry... if you dont fit in this mold they basically run people off. not intentionally but it is abrasive, people who are unlearned yet and genuinely trying their best become discouraged and do not desire fellowship with that.
whats more important... getting it right and being totally perfect or giving grace? I think grace from us to our neighbor is a large slice of the getting it right pie.
I see churches so caught up in the whole this is how its done mold they end up loosing their joy and purpose. while doing it right is important look how much room for error there is from God to us.
If our labor is not in love we are missing the mark. what i speak on can be found in one of the seven letters to the churches in revelation. And dont get me wrong here, i do not say all this to point a finger at anyone... but i dont want to see wrong motives come because, well the flesh needs to be kept in check. we can even think we are doing things the right way but in Gods eyes it could be for the wrong reasons.
Neh 8:10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength. Neh 8:11 So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, Hold your peace, for the day is holy; neither be ye grieved. Neh 8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them. the joy of The LORD is our strength. THE JOY!
I am not sure if I understand what kind of things you are talking about? Can you give any examples of what kind of things concern you, that they do harm to and run off potential new members?
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Post by frienduff on Jan 31, 2020 21:13:33 GMT -5
the reason i added it is because i see some churches so caught up in this is how it is... cut and dry... if you dont fit in this mold they basically run people off. not intentionally but it is abrasive, people who are unlearned yet and genuinely trying their best become discouraged and do not desire fellowship with that.
whats more important... getting it right and being totally perfect or giving grace? I think grace from us to our neighbor is a large slice of the getting it right pie.
I see churches so caught up in the whole this is how its done mold they end up loosing their joy and purpose. while doing it right is important look how much room for error there is from God to us.
If our labor is not in love we are missing the mark. what i speak on can be found in one of the seven letters to the churches in revelation. And dont get me wrong here, i do not say all this to point a finger at anyone... but i dont want to see wrong motives come because, well the flesh needs to be kept in check. we can even think we are doing things the right way but in Gods eyes it could be for the wrong reasons.
Neh 8:10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength. Neh 8:11 So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, Hold your peace, for the day is holy; neither be ye grieved. Neh 8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them. the joy of The LORD is our strength. THE JOY!
I am not sure if I understand what kind of things you are talking about? Can you give any examples of what kind of things concern you, that they do harm to and run off potential new members?
This may seem odd or sound strange . But whether people treated me bad or kind , was not what would run me off from a church . IT was doctrine . Lambs need it straight . We can do it very encouragingly and also through gravity . When I was first drawn, people could not run me off . No matter how grave and serious one was , AS LONG AS IT WAS TRUTH , I LOVED IT NO MATTER HOW kind it was said , or grave , IF it was truth I loved it . But if its anything less than the entire truth , I could not even begin to have peace or joy . I think folks worry to much over what to say and how to say it , Just speak the truth . Lambs will hear it , those who are not will not hear it . I think the reason , more and more fell prey to this seeker friendly or tone it down approach , is due to they forgot how they were even called in the first place . That and most just love that stuff . But I am talking about the ones who might love the Lord , and are from sincere hearts wanting to know how to evangelize or teach , but are getting caught up with this worry over what to say and how to approach . We should just speak truth . TRUTH will never run a lamb off . JESUS simply spoke truth . He was not worried about who he might offend HE just spoke truth , and whoever came , came . IN fact remember when There was a group following JESUS , HE did not worry over how to keep them following HIM . HE went right on with the talking of eating of his body and drinking of his blood , and folks found it hard saying and left him . The main thing is , just speak truth . I don't see anyone here as being mean . IF we truly desire folks saved and new ones built up , WORRY NOT WHAT TO SAY , JUST SPEAK TRUTH . When paul was writing to the church , he did not worry who he might offend and run off , NOW we know HE DID not Just want to run anyone off , but the point again is , JUST speak the truth . Sometimes even well meaning christains can start getting caught up and worried about , well if I say it like this it might offend or run them off , or if I don't show enough of this or that it might not encourage them enough . ME , I just speak as I am led , and I do have much joy in the Lord . All we need to do is just speak the truth . let the cards fall , and when we speak no matter how grave , let it be because our heart only desires what is best for them and others . Just speak truth . Worry not over how or what to say , just let the Spirit lead and speak as it gives the utterance . This was only a general reminder for all . So let us be encouraged and let us only keep learning and being refreshed in the bible .
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Jan 31, 2020 22:31:40 GMT -5
the reason i added it is because i see some churches so caught up in this is how it is... cut and dry... if you dont fit in this mold they basically run people off. not intentionally but it is abrasive, people who are unlearned yet and genuinely trying their best become discouraged and do not desire fellowship with that.
whats more important... getting it right and being totally perfect or giving grace? I think grace from us to our neighbor is a large slice of the getting it right pie.
I see churches so caught up in the whole this is how its done mold they end up loosing their joy and purpose. while doing it right is important look how much room for error there is from God to us.
If our labor is not in love we are missing the mark. what i speak on can be found in one of the seven letters to the churches in revelation. And dont get me wrong here, i do not say all this to point a finger at anyone... but i dont want to see wrong motives come because, well the flesh needs to be kept in check. we can even think we are doing things the right way but in Gods eyes it could be for the wrong reasons.
Neh 8:10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength. Neh 8:11 So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, Hold your peace, for the day is holy; neither be ye grieved. Neh 8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them. the joy of The LORD is our strength. THE JOY!
I am not sure if I understand what kind of things you are talking about? Can you give any examples of what kind of things concern you, that they do harm to and run off potential new members?
i have seen churches with cliques. its like the superstar christians. and the new believers dont fit in and they kinda get snubbed. I have also seen how some churches come across judgmental. they may have good intentions too. I know people who have gone to churches for years. they have very little interaction with their pastors or elders. and its not from lack of trying. i have experienced this. people get wrapped up in these kinds of things and it puts up walls.
this is just a few examples but i see in some of these instances the people in these little groups dont have that joy that helps us to navigate thru the stress and chaos in life and dealing with others in a way that they seem to be able to still do whats good for them. People end up getting offended.
When i read frienduffs post this kind of stuff came to mind. not to say i think thats whats going on here or with people here, and its not really what Frienduff was saying about people toning it down. what i am talking about is how the joy fades when people get stuck on something.
I know people who wont go back to any church because of them going and seeing some of these things. i was having lunch with my pastor today and he was ministering to someone he has working for him. this guy is messing up with money and not finishing the jobs. bouncing to the next job to rob peter to pay paul. he spoke into his life and in the convo he said he has spoken with him more than his own pastor in 9 months. i used to go to the church he goes to now. its very cliquey. and after so much time half the congregation leaves. some to other churches. others to no other church ever. then new people start to come. time passes and more people leave. its like you are a nobody there.
i think i can second what Frienduff said about not leaving a church for a reason other than false doctrine being preached. so i understand what he is speaking on. but this is more about how people interact with others. and somewhere in the mix there is a mold... and it leads to a decrease in joy, grace with others, etc. its kind of hard to explain this as I am i behind the scenes guy. i minister to one person at a time and i tend to notice things others miss. i sit back and watch more than center stage.
the part you asked about was realy a side shoot of my main thought... which was sometimes others need help and if we tell them wel if you dont know your saved you are not. i am not saying "tone it down" but in some instances they really may not know if they really are saved or not. when i got saved i had no idea for years what had happened or what i had. the value of it. the sureness of it.
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Post by John on Jan 31, 2020 22:40:09 GMT -5
I am not sure if I understand what kind of things you are talking about? Can you give any examples of what kind of things concern you, that they do harm to and run off potential new members?
i have seen churches with cliques. its like the superstar christians. and the new believers dont fit in and they kinda get snubbed. I have also seen how some churches come across judgmental. they may have good intentions too. I know people who have gone to churches for years. they have very little interaction with their pastors or elders. and its not from lack of trying. i have experienced this. people get wrapped up in these kinds of things and it puts up walls.
this is just a few examples but i see in some of these instances the people in these little groups dont have that joy that helps us to navigate thru the stress and chaos in life and dealing with others in a way that they seem to be able to still do whats good for them. People end up getting offended.
When i read frienduffs post this kind of stuff came to mind. not to say i think thats whats going on here or with people here, and its not really what Frienduff was saying about people toning it down. what i am talking about is how the joy fades when people get stuck on something.
I know people who wont go back to any church because of them going and seeing some of these things. i was having lunch with my pastor today and he was ministering to someone he has working for him. this guy is messing up with money and not finishing the jobs. bouncing to the next job to rob peter to pay paul. he spoke into his life and in the convo he said he has spoken with him more than his own pastor in 9 months. i used to go to the church he goes to now. its very cliquey. and after so much time half the congregation leaves. some to other churches. others to no other church ever. then new people start to come. time passes and more people leave. its like you are a nobody there.
i think i can second what Frienduff said about not leaving a church for a reason other than false doctrine being preached. so i understand what he is speaking on. but this is more about how people interact with others. and somewhere in the mix there is a mold... and it leads to a decrease in joy, grace with others, etc. its kind of hard to explain this as I am i behind the scenes guy. i minister to one person at a time and i tend to notice things others miss. i sit back and watch more than center stage.
the part you asked about was realy a side shoot of my main thought... which was sometimes others need help and if we tell them wel if you dont know your saved you are not. i am not saying "tone it down" but in some instances they really may not know if they really are saved or not. when i got saved i had no idea for years what had happened or what i had. the value of it. the sureness of it.
I was concerned about the comment saying that if we are not sure, we are not saved. Frienduff seemed to have cleared that up. If that was your biggest issue, I saw it too, but I think we just misunderstood what he meant. We certainly can know we are saved, but the devil will try to make us doubt, even if we are saved.
Thanks for explaining your thoughts. Cliques can certainly make new members feel unwelcome.
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Post by frienduff on Jan 31, 2020 23:06:43 GMT -5
I am not sure if I understand what kind of things you are talking about? Can you give any examples of what kind of things concern you, that they do harm to and run off potential new members?
i have seen churches with cliques. its like the superstar christians. and the new believers dont fit in and they kinda get snubbed. I have also seen how some churches come across judgmental. they may have good intentions too. I know people who have gone to churches for years. they have very little interaction with their pastors or elders. and its not from lack of trying. i have experienced this. people get wrapped up in these kinds of things and it puts up walls.
this is just a few examples but i see in some of these instances the people in these little groups dont have that joy that helps us to navigate thru the stress and chaos in life and dealing with others in a way that they seem to be able to still do whats good for them. People end up getting offended.
When i read frienduffs post this kind of stuff came to mind. not to say i think thats whats going on here or with people here, and its not really what Frienduff was saying about people toning it down. what i am talking about is how the joy fades when people get stuck on something.
I know people who wont go back to any church because of them going and seeing some of these things. i was having lunch with my pastor today and he was ministering to someone he has working for him. this guy is messing up with money and not finishing the jobs. bouncing to the next job to rob peter to pay paul. he spoke into his life and in the convo he said he has spoken with him more than his own pastor in 9 months. i used to go to the church he goes to now. its very cliquey. and after so much time half the congregation leaves. some to other churches. others to no other church ever. then new people start to come. time passes and more people leave. its like you are a nobody there.
i think i can second what Frienduff said about not leaving a church for a reason other than false doctrine being preached. so i understand what he is speaking on. but this is more about how people interact with others. and somewhere in the mix there is a mold... and it leads to a decrease in joy, grace with others, etc. its kind of hard to explain this as I am i behind the scenes guy. i minister to one person at a time and i tend to notice things others miss. i sit back and watch more than center stage.
the part you asked about was realy a side shoot of my main thought... which was sometimes others need help and if we tell them wel if you dont know your saved you are not. i am not saying "tone it down" but in some instances they really may not know if they really are saved or not. when i got saved i had no idea for years what had happened or what i had. the value of it. the sureness of it.
Praise the LORD my friend . You are loved Cletus . Let us rejoice in the LORD .
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Post by frienduff on Jan 31, 2020 23:08:04 GMT -5
There is something I really want to encourage us on , If anyone ever misunderstands what I am saying , FEEL FREE to always ask or correct etc , So we can always clear it up fast . And let us be only more encouraged in the great HOPE we have IN CHRIST . SO hands up , butero , Cletus and all .
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Feb 18, 2020 10:08:58 GMT -5
There is something I really want to encourage us on , If anyone ever misunderstands what I am saying , FEEL FREE to always ask or correct etc , So we can always clear it up fast . And let us be only more encouraged in the great HOPE we have IN CHRIST . SO hands up , butero , Cletus and all . I do think there is a lot of strife that could be avoided over misunderstandings. People jump to wrong conclusions instead of asking questions.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 18, 2020 10:30:13 GMT -5
There is something I really want to encourage us on , If anyone ever misunderstands what I am saying , FEEL FREE to always ask or correct etc , So we can always clear it up fast . And let us be only more encouraged in the great HOPE we have IN CHRIST . SO hands up , butero , Cletus and all . I do think there is a lot of strife that could be avoided over misunderstandings. People jump to wrong conclusions instead of asking questions. I know , i think we have all done that a time or two as well . This is why i want us to ask questions . I believe the lambs here do love the LORD and thus even if one is in error they will receive the correction . or if they are being misunderstood at least that can be cleared up . But we must continue to always test all things said . And be here to look out for one another . We gotta , and fast , put on the whole armour of GOD and arise and make our stand now . I have watched this false move grow and i have seen its men and women who do its bidding and i am telling us , THEY KNOW HOW TO DECIEVE AND HOW TO SPIN .
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Post by John on Feb 19, 2020 18:22:11 GMT -5
I do think there is a lot of strife that could be avoided over misunderstandings. People jump to wrong conclusions instead of asking questions. I know , i think we have all done that a time or two as well . This is why i want us to ask questions . I believe the lambs here do love the LORD and thus even if one is in error they will receive the correction . or if they are being misunderstood at least that can be cleared up . But we must continue to always test all things said . And be here to look out for one another . We gotta , and fast , put on the whole armour of GOD and arise and make our stand now . I have watched this false move grow and i have seen its men and women who do its bidding and i am telling us , THEY KNOW HOW TO DECIEVE AND HOW TO SPIN . The easiest thing in the world to do, is just hear someone say something, get offended by it, and go off mad and never mention it to the person who offended them. Sometimes, the comment was perfectly innocent. That is not always the case, but often times it was completely taken wrong. I can't tell you how many times someone misunderstood something I said, but they didn't ask me to clarify it. They just got offended. Early on in my marriage, me and my wife had many unnecessary fights over one of us taking the other person wrong. A perfectly innocent comment was taken as an insult. After 35 years of being married, we understand each other a whole lot better today, and that doesn't happen anymore, but I learned something from those incidents.
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Feb 20, 2020 9:25:23 GMT -5
I know , i think we have all done that a time or two as well . This is why i want us to ask questions . I believe the lambs here do love the LORD and thus even if one is in error they will receive the correction . or if they are being misunderstood at least that can be cleared up . But we must continue to always test all things said . And be here to look out for one another . We gotta , and fast , put on the whole armour of GOD and arise and make our stand now . I have watched this false move grow and i have seen its men and women who do its bidding and i am telling us , THEY KNOW HOW TO DECIEVE AND HOW TO SPIN . The easiest thing in the world to do, is just hear someone say something, get offended by it, and go off mad and never mention it to the person who offended them. Sometimes, the comment was perfectly innocent. That is not always the case, but often times it was completely taken wrong. I can't tell you how many times someone misunderstood something I said, but they didn't ask me to clarify it. They just got offended. Early on in my marriage, me and my wife had many unnecessary fights over one of us taking the other person wrong. A perfectly innocent comment was taken as an insult. After 35 years of being married, we understand each other a whole lot better today, and that doesn't happen anymore, but I learned something from those incidents.
I agree with everything you said, but I want to add one thing. There are times where it is an intentional misunderstanding. The person who goes off in a huff acting offended knows what the other person meant, but is trying to harm their reputation by accusing them of saying things they didn't. I see this happen a lot, especially at other message boards.
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Post by John on Feb 20, 2020 17:11:26 GMT -5
The easiest thing in the world to do, is just hear someone say something, get offended by it, and go off mad and never mention it to the person who offended them. Sometimes, the comment was perfectly innocent. That is not always the case, but often times it was completely taken wrong. I can't tell you how many times someone misunderstood something I said, but they didn't ask me to clarify it. They just got offended. Early on in my marriage, me and my wife had many unnecessary fights over one of us taking the other person wrong. A perfectly innocent comment was taken as an insult. After 35 years of being married, we understand each other a whole lot better today, and that doesn't happen anymore, but I learned something from those incidents.
I agree with everything you said, but I want to add one thing. There are times where it is an intentional misunderstanding. The person who goes off in a huff acting offended knows what the other person meant, but is trying to harm their reputation by accusing them of saying things they didn't. I see this happen a lot, especially at other message boards. I have seen and experienced this. I know that this happens a lot.
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Feb 22, 2020 21:31:12 GMT -5
I doubted my salvation.
I think it was good for me because I was reading the Word and it made me examine myself.
Then Father corrected me. He pointed out sin to get rid of. He pointed out people to cut out. He pointed out people to be closer to.
Then, THEN I just knew. I could feel the Spirit just welling up. The love, the joy, the fruit. I had it and that confirmed that I was saved. My doubts went away and I had the joy of salvation.
I don't think I was lost before, but the thing is, you can only know if your life starts to look like Jesus. If the promises start to work out in your life. If you crucify the flesh, surrender, repent, and then all the blessings start to show up everywhere.
But it was good for me to fear and tremble.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2020 8:07:41 GMT -5
I doubted my salvation. I think it was good for me because I was reading the Word and it made me examine myself. Then Father corrected me. He pointed out sin to get rid of. He pointed out people to cut out. He pointed out people to be closer to. Then, THEN I just knew. I could feel the Spirit just welling up. The love, the joy, the fruit. I had it and that confirmed that I was saved. My doubts went away and I had the joy of salvation. I don't think I was lost before, but the thing is, you can only know if your life starts to look like Jesus. If the promises start to work out in your life. If you crucify the flesh, surrender, repent, and then all the blessings start to show up everywhere. But it was good for me to fear and tremble. What a precious word and testimony, Naomi, like a nugget of pure gold. Jesus is the Shepherd of our souls....He "HAS saved" us, and it's as we follow and obey Him that He also "IS SAVING" us and leading us home. Without Him....His light and leading and word, nobody can know what to do, how to walk, what is the way......what are we but little sheeple who need the Shepherd to lead us....praise the Lord for His faithfulness and kindness! Reminds me of Jesus saying to His disciples, you know the way to get to where I am....because HE is the way...and the truth and the life.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 23, 2020 10:28:15 GMT -5
I doubted my salvation. I think it was good for me because I was reading the Word and it made me examine myself. Then Father corrected me. He pointed out sin to get rid of. He pointed out people to cut out. He pointed out people to be closer to. Then, THEN I just knew. I could feel the Spirit just welling up. The love, the joy, the fruit. I had it and that confirmed that I was saved. My doubts went away and I had the joy of salvation. I don't think I was lost before, but the thing is, you can only know if your life starts to look like Jesus. If the promises start to work out in your life. If you crucify the flesh, surrender, repent, and then all the blessings start to show up everywhere. But it was good for me to fear and tremble. What a precious word and testimony, Naomi, like a nugget of pure gold. Jesus is the Shepherd of our souls....He "HAS saved" us, and it's as we follow and obey Him that He also "IS SAVING" us and leading us home. Without Him....His light and leading and word, nobody can know what to do, how to walk, what is the way......what are we but little sheeple who need the Shepherd to lead us....praise the Lord for His faithfulness and kindness! Reminds me of Jesus saying to His disciples, you know the way to get to where I am....because HE is the way...and the truth and the life. Lets clear up one sentence , I know you know this , but lets clear it up so no doubt can arise . Never mind , I just reread the sentence , YOU SAID without HIS LIGHT and LEADING and WORD . SPOT ON RIGHT SISTER . I was going to add that to remind us , BUT when I reread your sentence , THERE IT WAS . SO LEAP UP and PRAISE THE LORD . ITS true that no one can know what to do , how to walk , what is the true way , they can have knowledge and a basic knowledge of what things are right and wrong , BUT never truly know the way , WHICH IS JESUS , on how to truly worship GOD , WHO IS SPIRIT and TRUTH . THE ONLY WAY anyone will KNOW HOW to WORSHIP GOD in SPIRIT and IN TRUTH is by having been born again by the SPIRIT . and no man or any will have that lest its by FAITH IN JESUS ALONE . THE WORK OF GOD is TO BELEIVE in the ONE WHOM HE DID SEND . And the HELPER has us , reminds us with unctions to STAY THE PATH , to flee the evil and all appearance of it , to be walking holy , righteously and godly in this world .
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