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Post by Giller on Feb 4, 2020 11:01:19 GMT -5
Under the old testament there are a lot more verses on the second coming, than there is on his first coming, and concerning the whole entirety of the bible (new testament, old testament) there are a lot more verses on the second coming of Christ than there is on the rapture of the church.
But just because it is so, does not make those other doctrines invalid.
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Post by Giller on Feb 4, 2020 11:11:02 GMT -5
And concerning the rapture issue, I can totally see how someone can come to a pre trib conclusion even in not hearing it before hand, for they can be looking at scriptures that talk about the church being caught up in a twinkling of an eye, and their bodies changing and them going to heaven with Jesus, yet at the second coming it talks of not people going to heaven with Jesus, but rather people coming down from heaven with Jesus, so this can get people to think upon, hmmm maybe there are 2 comings.
And then there is the escape verse and so on.
And even then our trust should not be in whether or not someone never heard of a doctrine and come up with a certain doctrine, because whether men heard of it or not, and they come up with this doctrine or not, it hardly matters, because in either situation you can still come up with false doctrine.
What we should be concerned about is to make sure that what we stand on is sound and biblical, always seeking his face and learning his word, and letting God make his word alive in our hearts.
We need to learn it, but it has to bring in a change, a transformation, we have to give ourselves over to it.
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Dezi
Junior Member
Posts: 431
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Post by Dezi on Feb 4, 2020 12:08:16 GMT -5
Although I do thank God that if you are post, mid or pre trib that at least you believe that the rapture will take place. There are some who do not believe in a rapture of the church which is also called the resurrection. But it makes me think of this, in Christ's time many were looking for Christ to come as a reigning king on this earth, yet many failed to see the prophecy of the suffering servant, how Christ was to first come to suffer for us, on the cross of course. They failed to see his first coming as a man, yet still being God. They failed to see the prophecies of his first coming. Well even today, there is a doctrine being pushed of bringing down the coming, to earth, the kingdom now doctrine. And there are many who are looking towards the second coming of Christ, but how many are truly looking for the rapture of the church, because the doctrine of the rapture, bit by bit, is gradually dwindling. Many missed his first coming, how many will miss the rapture? I used to think that the Pharisees just didn't recognize who he was but now I think they did and chose to serve Satan... they were of the house of Satan. What are your thoughts on that?
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Post by frienduff on Feb 4, 2020 13:42:22 GMT -5
Under the old testament there are a lot more verses on the second coming, than there is on his first coming, and concerning the whole entirety of the bible (new testament, old testament) there are a lot more verses on the second coming of Christ than there is on the rapture of the church. But just because it is so, does not make those other doctrines invalid. The second coming of JESUS is the rapture of the church . One day , one moment . The thing we need to know is this , be ready for His coming . To be watching and ready . AND that so long as we are on this earth , don't expect to escape persecution and even death by persecution . So long as lambs understand that , they are in a good mindset .
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Post by Giller on Feb 4, 2020 13:51:48 GMT -5
There is no doubt that there will be persecution either way.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 4, 2020 13:52:00 GMT -5
The wrath of GOD is what we escape . That very wrath that shall come against the beast , and the children of His kingdom . But the wrath of the beast , that cometh against saints . Very clear this is . Be ready and be watching . But so long as we remain on this earth , we better both know , understand , that we are appointed unto tribulation . That tribulation and persecution is not just an event for christains in the middle east , NOPE its appointed unto all who do believe and live godly in Christ . America and the west are not exempt from a great time of persecution . We are not better than our brethren who have through all ages and today , face even death . ITS COMING . I warn us all , its coming for us all . We will be betrayed , this delusion has about run its course . I want no man , woman or child to fear what is coming . Be prepared to lose everything . be prepared to be seen as a monster and all out demon hater of all humanity . ITS COMING and its what they will believe . When we are being rounded up , betrayed and killed , they will think they do the all inclusive gods will , for world peace , safety . And cant a thing stop what is coming . First the delusion will abound big time . The pope and others are already began to push the idea the evangelizing the gospel is dangerous . History is repeating on a global scale now . And the new jew aer those who wont conform to the all inclusive mindset , and the new hitler will be the one who through this delusion will rise to power and the world as one and all her religions will unite , as they are already uniting under this dark inclusive anti Christ spirit , SO TOO they unite under who it leads them tooo. ANd he will seem to have the answer and solutions and the kings will do his will . And his cry will be , TO RID THE EARTH of all who conformed not to the iamge of the all inclusive god . MARK THOSE WORDS . stamp them in your heads , cause its about to rise and the world will see it as a savoir , ONLY the true lambs will see it for what it is .
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Post by Giller on Feb 4, 2020 14:22:41 GMT -5
Mal 3:1-2 (1) Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. (2) But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Now there is no doubt that verse 2 is referring to the second coming.
But verse one seems to me to be a double prophecy, which the words "I" and "me" refer to the Lord, which it is John the baptist who prepared the way before him (me), and when did and when will Christ suddenly come to his temple?
And remember the key word suddenly, well we know that at the second coming Christ will suddenly come to the earth, but what about the day of Pentecost?
Act 2:1-2 (1) And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. (2) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
This is when Christ through the Holy Spirit in some way, suddenly came to his spiritual temple.
And who is the temple of the Holy Ghost?
1Co 6:19 (19) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
And notice that Malachi calls this coming to his temple a "coming".
And it says behold, he shall "come".
There is no doubt that this scripture is referring to both the second coming of Christ and Christ coming into believers at the day of Pentecost.
Yet both are referred to as a "coming", yet both are different days.
So I do not believe that it is always wise to merge every time that the word of God mentions Chris'st coming, that it always has to refer to the second coming and has to always refer to the same day, yet it does not always.
The context determines what it is talking about.
When he came to his temple on the day of Pentecost, that refers to the coming of the Lord, and when he comes on the earth to reign for a thousand years, that is referred to his coming, yet they are different days.
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Post by Giller on Feb 4, 2020 14:40:26 GMT -5
Luk 21:36 (36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
So it is mentioning that we can be watching and praying and as a result we can be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass.
Now God would not ask us to watch and pray, so that we may be accounted worthy to escape all these things, if it could not be so.
Now what are these things that shall come to pass that we can escape?
Instead of giving our ideals, how about we let scripture speak for itself.
It says that all these things that shall come to pass may be escaped.
Well the things that may be escaped are mentioned before this verse.
Luk 21:10-19 (10) Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: (11) And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. (12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. (13) And it shall turn to you for a testimony. (14) Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: (15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. (16) And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. (17) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. (18) But there shall not an hair of your head perish. (19) In your patience possess ye your souls.
It mentions a certain time period of these specific great earthquakes, famines, pestilences, being persecuted for his name's sake, even being put to death for Christ, these are all in this list of what shall come to pass, nothing added or taken away.
We should just leave the word say what it says.
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Post by Giller on Feb 4, 2020 14:48:03 GMT -5
Another thing to check out is verses on the "day of the Lord", and not all things correspond to the same thing, although most may refer to the second coming, there is one specific one that does not refer to the second coming, but rather refers to the time of the great white throne of judgment, which does not happen on the same day as the second coming.
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Post by John on Feb 4, 2020 17:47:27 GMT -5
Although I do thank God that if you are post, mid or pre trib that at least you believe that the rapture will take place. There are some who do not believe in a rapture of the church which is also called the resurrection. But it makes me think of this, in Christ's time many were looking for Christ to come as a reigning king on this earth, yet many failed to see the prophecy of the suffering servant, how Christ was to first come to suffer for us, on the cross of course. They failed to see his first coming as a man, yet still being God. They failed to see the prophecies of his first coming. Well even today, there is a doctrine being pushed of bringing down the coming, to earth, the kingdom now doctrine. And there are many who are looking towards the second coming of Christ, but how many are truly looking for the rapture of the church, because the doctrine of the rapture, bit by bit, is gradually dwindling. Many missed his first coming, how many will miss the rapture? I used to think that the Pharisees just didn't recognize who he was but now I think they did and chose to serve Satan... they were of the house of Satan. What are your thoughts on that? I think a lot of them saw Jesus as a threat to their positions, and that is why they opposed him. Remember how Herod tried to kill the infant Jesus after the wise men came to him with news of his birth? That was because he felt his position was threatened, not because of unbelief. He was so determined to kill the Christ child, he had all children 2 years old and under slaughtered. I think a lot of the Pharisees did recognize him. Not all, but a lot of them.
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Post by John on Feb 4, 2020 17:54:04 GMT -5
Luk 21:36 (36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. So it is mentioning that we can be watching and praying and as a result we can be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass. Now God would not ask us to watch and pray, so that we may be accounted worthy to escape all these things, if it could not be so. Now what are these things that shall come to pass that we can escape? Instead of giving our ideals, how about we let scripture speak for itself. It says that all these things that shall come to pass may be escaped. Well the things that may be escaped are mentioned before this verse. Luk 21:10-19 (10) Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: (11) And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. (12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. (13) And it shall turn to you for a testimony. (14) Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: (15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. (16) And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. (17) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. (18) But there shall not an hair of your head perish. (19) In your patience possess ye your souls. It mentions a certain time period of these specific great earthquakes, famines, pestilences, being persecuted for his name's sake, even being put to death for Christ, these are all in this list of what shall come to pass, nothing added or taken away. We should just leave the word say what it says. To me, this is one of the strongest arguments for a pre-tribulation rapture. The only alternatives one can come up with for the meaning of this would be that God would take you on before the tribulation through death, or God would spare you from His wrath during the tribulation period, but you still would have to go through it. I do believe this is saying that some will be accounted worthy to be taken ahead of the tribulation.
One major difference between those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and those who hold to only the second coming is that those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture believe the Lord could return now. Those who don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are not looking for Jesus' to return till after a series of events takes place. That doesn't mean one group lives more holy than the other. It just means we have a different mind set about the timing of the Lord's return.
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Post by John on Feb 4, 2020 18:08:05 GMT -5
There is no doubt that there will be persecution either way. That is a good reminder. We don't have to be in the midst of the great tribulation to come under persecutions. Look at all the things the Christian Church has suffered in the past, and continues to endure in many parts of the world today. There is a time period referred to as the beginning of sorrows, and things may get very bad during the time leading up to the tribulation. We should all be prepared for hard times.
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Post by Giller on Feb 5, 2020 12:00:35 GMT -5
Proof that the word day of the Lord can refer to not just one day. Second comingZec 14:1-4 (1) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. (2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. This is no doubt referring to the second coming which is when Jesus' feet shall stand upon the mount of olives. And it is called the " day of the Lord". RaptureWe always have to remember to let the word interpret itself. Here are verses on the rapture: 1Th 4:13-18 (13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words. So this is what it says in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, which we covered verses 13 unto the end of this chapter, but then the same discussion continues in chapter 5, which says: 1Th 5:1-2 (1) But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. (2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. This day of the Lord is referring to what it was talking about in chapter 4 which is the rapture of the church. It is just continuing the conversation. And it is called " the day of the Lord". The time of the great white throne judgmentNow remember to let the word interpret the word. 2Pe 3:7 (7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. See here it speaks of judgment, were the heavens and the earth are reserved unto fire, and the judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But then we get to verse 9 which mentions a promise: 2Pe 3:9 (9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But then we get to these verses: 2Pe 3:10-13 (10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, (12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. So what is his promise, in verse 9? Well let us go to verse 4. 2Pe 3:4 (4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. It refers to the promise of his coming. But what about the promise mentioned in verse 13? 2Pe 3:13 (13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Well it mentions looking for a new heavens and a new earth, and one commentator mentions the verse in Isaiah 65:17. God will fulfill his promise of his coming and the promise of new heavens and a new earth. But now what about the day of the Lord, in this chapter of 2 Peter, is it in reference to one of his promises? Or in reference to his judgment? 2Pe 3:7 (7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2Pe 3:10-13 (10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, (12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. It is in reference to one of his judgments. It mentions the heavens and the earth being dissolved, it mentions the heavens passing away, elements melting with fervent heat, and in verse 7 it mentions that he earth and heavens that are now are reserved unto fire, and it also mentions the judgment and perdition of ungodly men. None of this elements melting and so on happens at the second coming. And how about we just compare verses side by side, and let the bible speak for itself: 2Pe 3:7 (7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
| Rev 20:11-14 (11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
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2Pe 3:10-13 (10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, (12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat (13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. | Rev 21:1 (1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
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Post by Giller on Feb 5, 2020 12:16:37 GMT -5
Often times when God pours out his judgment, a blessing also comes in place, such as at the great white throne of judgment, at this time, the heaven and the earth shall pass away, but as a result, a blessing will come about, which is a new heaven and new earth.
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Post by Giller on Feb 5, 2020 12:42:41 GMT -5
2Pe 3:10-13 (10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, (12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Now we have covered a certain scripture in Zechariah that calls the coming of the Lord (second coming), the day of the Lord.
But in this verse in 2 Peter, it is in conjunction with a judgment of God, and not a certain coming down to earth.
I know many associate it with the second coming, but there are no verses in the whole entire bible that shows that the heavens and the earth being dissolved or passed away at the second coming, but it does show this at the end of the millennial reign, which begins the great white throne of judgment.
Things have to be according to sound doctrine and not unsound doctrine.
When things match up they match up, and when things do not match up they do not match up.
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