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Post by solid on Feb 24, 2020 9:44:20 GMT -5
I just got through watching the videos, and I have mixed feelings about the things they are saying. There is no question that the actual church is the congregation of people. At the same time, I think they are kind of being nit picky when they make such a big deal about calling the place where the church meets a church. The reason they do this is because it lets the people in the community know that this building is where the congregation meets at the appointed time. I really see no problem with this.
Altars. I have never read anywhere in scripture that Jesus himself is an altar. He is our great High Priest, but the High Priest is not the altar, so I do not get how that is Biblical. Having people come to an altar and to pray a prayer is done to make a public confession. That is completely Biblical. If it is just a matter of the name of the place where the people kneel being called an altar, again, to me this is being nit picky.
The scriptures that tell people not to be a respecter of persons are dealing with not treating someone as a lesser person because they are poor or from a different race or something like that. These scriptures are not dealing with positions, and calling one man Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Evangelist or Teacher, or anything else with a capital letter in front of the title of their position. I capitalize these titles all the time, as the titles are Biblical. I do that for other offices too, like Bishop, Deacon, Elder, or even things like Helps, Usher, anything. It has nothing to do with saying one man is better than another. It is just identifying their calling or the office they hold. I do not see anything wrong with that either. Notice what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 13:1-7
LET every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
If I take things the way the man lays it out in the videos, I am being a respetor of persons in doing this.
Next, there is the issue of traditions. There are traditions of men, that sometimes are in opposition to scripture, and Jesus did come against people using traditions to disobey God's ordinances, but not all traditions are bad and evil, and the Bible actually uplifts some traditions.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-7
We have had a long discussion in the past about tithes. Are New Testament Christians supposed to tithe to the church? We know that they paid tithes in the Old Testament. I do not know of any scripture that says we must or that the storehouse has become the local church. Most congregations that teach this assume that the church took the place of the Temple, and that the principal of tithing still applies. That is one of those things that I would say a man or woman needs to follow their conscience. If you feel like God would have you tithe, do it. If not, don't. I have no issue with ministers getting full time salaries. That is completely Biblical, and tithes do help pay salaries. Notice what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:7-14
Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should pow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap of your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about the holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
It is because of passages like this that many take the teachings about tithing to the temple, and say it now applies to the local church. I can see legitimate issues that the videos address. You can have a real church in someone's home, if that is where a congregation meets. You could have a real church meet in the park, at an harbor, a rented storefront, or even a message board. Still, if a church in a city owns a building where they meet, I am not sure what we should call the building other than a church. I do not see the harm in placing the name of the congregation that meets at this building on the building itself.
solid, I am not sure what it is about the videos that you found so offensive? If you do not see what is being said as correct, nobody says you have to accept it. There are some things that are legitimate, like the idea that repeating a prayer is guaranteed to save you eternally. If you pray a prayer asking Jesus to forgive your sins and come into your heart to save you and be your Lord and Savior, and you mean it, I believe He will do so, but many go to these altar calls and never really get saved. They just go through the motions. There is a lot to think about here, and more scriptures we can include that would add to this discussion. I think this is an important topic, and I thank Dezi for giving us these videos to look at, as they certainly have got me thinking about what is Biblical and what is not in the modern church.
I know people say a sinners prayer at times and aren't really saved. I know the church is the people and I am fine with house churches, but a lot of things the videos attack are not man made traditions. It was an unnecessary assault on the church.
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Post by solid on Feb 24, 2020 9:49:17 GMT -5
This message is false. The Apostles did refer to themselves as being Apostles. These videos are attacking men of God to defend their lawlessness. I don't receive any of it! LAWLESSNESS..........is not allowing Christ to be Head and not following His leading by the Holy Spirit, that's what lawlessness is brother. Doing things our own way, according to our own ideas, inventing our own methods and formulas and expecting the Lord to confine and conform Himself to our man-made methods and formalities is actually lawlessness and presumption. The mystery of lawlessness.......quenching the Holy Spirit!! Thank the Lord He is so longsuffering and merciful, He has borne with us......but I believe His longsuffering is coming to an end. It is promoting lawlessness, and it is because of these kind of attacks people are falling away from the faith. They leave the church and become self willed. They do what seems right in their own eyes and call that following God. Thank God for his mercy indeed!
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Feb 24, 2020 9:57:53 GMT -5
LAWLESSNESS..........is not allowing Christ to be Head and not following His leading by the Holy Spirit, that's what lawlessness is brother. Doing things our own way, according to our own ideas, inventing our own methods and formulas and expecting the Lord to confine and conform Himself to our man-made methods and formalities is actually lawlessness and presumption. The mystery of lawlessness.......quenching the Holy Spirit!! Thank the Lord He is so longsuffering and merciful, He has borne with us......but I believe His longsuffering is coming to an end. It is promoting lawlessness, and it is because of these kind of attacks people are falling away from the faith. They leave the church and become self willed. They do what seems right in their own eyes and call that following God. Thank God for his mercy indeed! If they are not real long, I'll look at them now.
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Post by solid on Feb 24, 2020 9:59:22 GMT -5
It is promoting lawlessness, and it is because of these kind of attacks people are falling away from the faith. They leave the church and become self willed. They do what seems right in their own eyes and call that following God. Thank God for his mercy indeed! If they are not real long, I'll look at them now. They are not that long.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 24, 2020 10:03:06 GMT -5
I will try to take time to watch these as soon as I can. It seems like there are mixed feelings about the content.
I have not watched them yet . My warnings were just from what I saw in times past . The truth is , lets say a man even preached the one and only , holy and true gospel , BUT THEN allows false systems such as rome to set up camp at their meetings . THAT ALONE would spell out total disaster . It would be like man telling truth , yet only leading ones right into darkness . And we can mix the holy with the unholy . we cant preach a good message and yet allow lambs to go in a BAD DIRECTION . That shows us what happens when a man gets yoked with any false leaders or leader . THEY will fall away and do its will . It got so bad near the end , billy was even preaching that inclusive ecumincal lie on the Robert schuler program . This is why not only is it our duty to preach wholesome truth at all times , but to never let leaven in , never let the lambs go into a wrong direction . I never found fault in the sinners prayer , Its like Dezi said , most stop RIGHT at that basically teaching the same faith even devils have , for devils even believe and tremble . But if we are not reminding the church about being hearers and doers , about LOVING which means OBEYING our LORD , if we are allowing lambs to FEEEL and the key word is FEEL saved and yet walk in willfull sin , WE are co helpers of that dark spirit . For even the devil believe and yet we know they aint saved . The prayer is but the beginning of our coming to Christ , but me thinks most have forgotten something , WHAT YE BEGIN , YA GOTTA REMAN IN FIATHFUL TO THE END , or preprare ye to be cast out . NOW is that trusting in men or in JESUS . DID what I just say show a lack of trust in JESUS . I TROW NOT , BECAUSE JESUS SAID IT FIRST . SO those who do take the warning serious ACTUALLY are the ones trusting in JESUS and not men . Folks forget that . I take every warning JESUS said and the apostels said SERIOUS . CAUSE IT ALL CAME FROM GOD . SO my question to us all is , WHO WE GONNA TRUST , GOD and the BIBLE , Or men and their precepts . Exactly .
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Post by frienduff on Feb 24, 2020 10:14:27 GMT -5
This message is false. The Apostles did refer to themselves as being Apostles. These videos are attacking men of God to defend their lawlessness. I don't receive any of it! LAWLESSNESS..........is not allowing Christ to be Head and not following His leading by the Holy Spirit, that's what lawlessness is brother. Doing things our own way, according to our own ideas, inventing our own methods and formulas and expecting the Lord to confine and conform Himself to our man-made methods and formalities is actually lawlessness and presumption. The mystery of lawlessness.......quenching the Holy Spirit!! Thank the Lord He is so longsuffering and merciful, He has borne with us......but I believe His longsuffering is coming to an end. Lets expound even more on this topic dear sister . cause I want this to sink real deep into all hearts . Exactly right sister . Most folks either have quenched the Spirit or in truth never had it . THEY do things their own way , and seeker friendly is a fat example of this so is hermeneutics So is many traditions , not all traditions but many . They go about to Find their own way , their own path to getting things done . THEY believe they have wisdom and they have found a better way of doing things , YET HOW COME the way they DO does not line up with the WAY JESUS DID or the apostels did Church and all things . JESUS never said tone down anything to try and make converts , JESUS never said hug them to GOD and don't focus on their errors . JESUS never said many things they do and have done for years . And when I say many things they do and have done for years , I AM talking about the many things they do that CONTRADICT JESUS , the SCRITPURES and the very pattern HE set up and the apostels set up . They preach what they think is a love that will save all and get all to gather as one , YET their religion and love has failed to save those who sit under them in fact ITS A DELSUION and a lie that leads folks away from TRUSTING IN JESUS , TRUSTING IN HIM as the ONLY MEANS of salvation , From trusting in the YE MUST CONFESS HIM BY MOUTH and Believe that GOD has raised him from the dead . Many things they do and much hermuenitcis and greek so called they use to justify their religion . But its all dead and its all bad news . EITHER we follow the lamb or we follow men . EITHER we HEED the SPIRIT or we heed worldwise flesh led men Either we flee the false tabernacle and serve the true one in heaven , or we serve the tabernacle of men . Either we love and obey JESUS or we love and obey men . BUT IT CANT be and wont be BOTH . CHOOSE YE THIS DAY WHOM YE SHALL SERVE and DO SO DAILY , for the lambs IT SHALL BE JESUS CHRIST ALONE . I shudder with great fear for the many who do this not .
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Post by frienduff on Feb 24, 2020 10:19:57 GMT -5
I have not watched the vidoes as of yet , but one thing I do want to remind us all about , is , its far better we stick only in those bibles , because in truth , its extremely tough these days to find anyone who preaches the truth and yet does not have some kinds of errors with it . I do say this without having watched these vidoes . But I see folks saying there are problems in some of those vidoes . Its far better we just exhort one another daily , read our bibles daily and get built up in that . THEN we will be able to discern much better everything in a vidoe . Sister Dezi you are loved , and I , like Cletus have enjoyed watching you grow dear sister . I will try and watch these vidoes some time . don't know when cause I have things to do , but I will try .
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Post by Giller on Feb 24, 2020 10:41:21 GMT -5
LAWLESSNESS..........is not allowing Christ to be Head and not following His leading by the Holy Spirit, that's what lawlessness is brother. Doing things our own way, according to our own ideas, inventing our own methods and formulas and expecting the Lord to confine and conform Himself to our man-made methods and formalities is actually lawlessness and presumption. The mystery of lawlessness.......quenching the Holy Spirit!! Thank the Lord He is so longsuffering and merciful, He has borne with us......but I believe His longsuffering is coming to an end. It is promoting lawlessness, and it is because of these kind of attacks people are falling away from the faith. They leave the church and become self willed. They do what seems right in their own eyes and call that following God. Thank God for his mercy indeed! Well I would be careful, in saying this too quickly, because in some things, you cannot really know in what way the person meant certain things. I do not know if the ones that made the video, if they are against meeting in buildings or not, because they did not define that area clearly, that I find. In the bible we see evidence of them going from house to house, and them even going in the temple: Act 2:46 (46) And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, So the place is not the important part of course. There are some who have no desire to gather, now that is not good, but at the same time, we need to seek God's face in were to gather and with whom, because most places are not a safe place. And numbers is not important either, you can be 2 or 3, or 100 an so on. I think there is too much emphasis in you have to gather at a building, rather than seeking the Holy Spirit, in fact I see a lot of people backsliding who gather at a building, so it is not about gathering at a building or not, but seeking the Lord's face.
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Post by Giller on Feb 24, 2020 10:48:33 GMT -5
I just got through watching the videos, and I have mixed feelings about the things they are saying. There is no question that the actual church is the congregation of people. At the same time, I think they are kind of being nit picky when they make such a big deal about calling the place where the church meets a church. The reason they do this is because it lets the people in the community know that this building is where the congregation meets at the appointed time. I really see no problem with this.
Altars. I have never read anywhere in scripture that Jesus himself is an altar. He is our great High Priest, but the High Priest is not the altar, so I do not get how that is Biblical. Having people come to an altar and to pray a prayer is done to make a public confession. That is completely Biblical. If it is just a matter of the name of the place where the people kneel being called an altar, again, to me this is being nit picky.
The scriptures that tell people not to be a respecter of persons are dealing with not treating someone as a lesser person because they are poor or from a different race or something like that. These scriptures are not dealing with positions, and calling one man Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Evangelist or Teacher, or anything else with a capital letter in front of the title of their position. I capitalize these titles all the time, as the titles are Biblical. I do that for other offices too, like Bishop, Deacon, Elder, or even things like Helps, Usher, anything. It has nothing to do with saying one man is better than another. It is just identifying their calling or the office they hold. I do not see anything wrong with that either. Notice what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 13:1-7
LET every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
If I take things the way the man lays it out in the videos, I am being a respetor of persons in doing this.
Next, there is the issue of traditions. There are traditions of men, that sometimes are in opposition to scripture, and Jesus did come against people using traditions to disobey God's ordinances, but not all traditions are bad and evil, and the Bible actually uplifts some traditions.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-7
We have had a long discussion in the past about tithes. Are New Testament Christians supposed to tithe to the church? We know that they paid tithes in the Old Testament. I do not know of any scripture that says we must or that the storehouse has become the local church. Most congregations that teach this assume that the church took the place of the Temple, and that the principal of tithing still applies. That is one of those things that I would say a man or woman needs to follow their conscience. If you feel like God would have you tithe, do it. If not, don't. I have no issue with ministers getting full time salaries. That is completely Biblical, and tithes do help pay salaries. Notice what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:7-14
Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should pow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap of your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about the holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
It is because of passages like this that many take the teachings about tithing to the temple, and say it now applies to the local church. I can see legitimate issues that the videos address. You can have a real church in someone's home, if that is where a congregation meets. You could have a real church meet in the park, at an harbor, a rented storefront, or even a message board. Still, if a church in a city owns a building where they meet, I am not sure what we should call the building other than a church. I do not see the harm in placing the name of the congregation that meets at this building on the building itself.
solid , I am not sure what it is about the videos that you found so offensive? If you do not see what is being said as correct, nobody says you have to accept it. There are some things that are legitimate, like the idea that repeating a prayer is guaranteed to save you eternally. If you pray a prayer asking Jesus to forgive your sins and come into your heart to save you and be your Lord and Savior, and you mean it, I believe He will do so, but many go to these altar calls and never really get saved. They just go through the motions. There is a lot to think about here, and more scriptures we can include that would add to this discussion. I think this is an important topic, and I thank Dezi for giving us these videos to look at, as they certainly have got me thinking about what is Biblical and what is not in the modern church.
You say some thought provoking things here. I see things such as apostles, pastors and son on, as offices of the church as well. Rom 11:13 (13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: But concerning the videos, do you think that they are against the titles of apostles, prophets and so on, as being offices of the church? Or do you think they were just referring this upper case/capital, stuff, because some pastors really do exalt themselves above everyone else, that spirit is truly in what we call the church? Some may put the title of Pastors in capitals, because they think they are better than others? Now I do not say that you do so for that reason John, no not at all, but some may. And it is true bible wise in what they say that when it mentions say Jesus is this or that, it often times is in capital letters, and when it mentions things as men being pastors and so on, it is usually in non capital letters, now I do not know how much of an issue that in and of itself would be, but I think the greater issue is with how one takes these positions. I do know that some think that pastors, teachers and so on, are not offices of the church, and they say it is just a gift, yet Paul said that he magnifies his office. I know that some are against church authority, which that is not good, but at the same time, some exalt these offices to a place they were never meant to go, and being a pastor , teacher and so on, does not make one better than the other, they are just fellow servants.
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Feb 24, 2020 11:00:33 GMT -5
I watched the videos, and was not offended by them, but my church has a building they call the church, as well as an altar, where they have altar calls and lead people in a sinner's prayer. I see nothing wrong with it, and I don't see this as meaning they copied the RCC in following man-made traditions. But I saw nothing in the videos worth getting upset over. Those with house churches have had to deal with attacks from those in traditional buildings, and that is not right.
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Post by solid on Feb 24, 2020 11:59:50 GMT -5
It is promoting lawlessness, and it is because of these kind of attacks people are falling away from the faith. They leave the church and become self willed. They do what seems right in their own eyes and call that following God. Thank God for his mercy indeed! Well I would be careful, in saying this too quickly, because in some things, you cannot really know in what way the person meant certain things. I do not know if the ones that made the video, if they are against meeting in buildings or not, because they did not define that area clearly, that I find. In the bible we see evidence of them going from house to house, and them even going in the temple: Act 2:46 (46) And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, So the place is not the important part of course. There are some who have no desire to gather, now that is not good, but at the same time, we need to seek God's face in were to gather and with whom, because most places are not a safe place. And numbers is not important either, you can be 2 or 3, or 100 an so on. I think there is too much emphasis in you have to gather at a building, rather than seeking the Holy Spirit, in fact I see a lot of people backsliding who gather at a building, so it is not about gathering at a building or not, but seeking the Lord's face. I guess that's true, and I can't ask them questions about what they mean.
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Post by solid on Feb 24, 2020 12:06:46 GMT -5
And just to mention that the term altar is used in Catholicism because their doctrine is that the bread and wine actually transubstantiates into the actual body and blood of Jesus and that they are therefore at the altar of His sacrifice. Yikes, that should make us think twice....He is not being sacrificed again and again, God forbid...and I even think it's possible that might have something to do with why the Lord was so severe when Moses struck the Rock twice. Jesus said to "GO and make disciples", the idea of an altar in the protestant churches is at least partly because they have replaced "going out" to make disciples to "bringing them in" to make disciples. There is no altar or "altar" calls out in the highways and biways or in the workplace or in people's homes. The altar is just what we call the place we meet with God.
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Post by Giller on Feb 24, 2020 12:11:01 GMT -5
I just got through watching the videos, and I have mixed feelings about the things they are saying. There is no question that the actual church is the congregation of people. At the same time, I think they are kind of being nit picky when they make such a big deal about calling the place where the church meets a church. The reason they do this is because it lets the people in the community know that this building is where the congregation meets at the appointed time. I really see no problem with this.
Altars. I have never read anywhere in scripture that Jesus himself is an altar. He is our great High Priest, but the High Priest is not the altar, so I do not get how that is Biblical. Having people come to an altar and to pray a prayer is done to make a public confession. That is completely Biblical. If it is just a matter of the name of the place where the people kneel being called an altar, again, to me this is being nit picky.
The scriptures that tell people not to be a respecter of persons are dealing with not treating someone as a lesser person because they are poor or from a different race or something like that. These scriptures are not dealing with positions, and calling one man Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Evangelist or Teacher, or anything else with a capital letter in front of the title of their position. I capitalize these titles all the time, as the titles are Biblical. I do that for other offices too, like Bishop, Deacon, Elder, or even things like Helps, Usher, anything. It has nothing to do with saying one man is better than another. It is just identifying their calling or the office they hold. I do not see anything wrong with that either. Notice what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 13:1-7
LET every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
If I take things the way the man lays it out in the videos, I am being a respetor of persons in doing this.
Next, there is the issue of traditions. There are traditions of men, that sometimes are in opposition to scripture, and Jesus did come against people using traditions to disobey God's ordinances, but not all traditions are bad and evil, and the Bible actually uplifts some traditions.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-7
We have had a long discussion in the past about tithes. Are New Testament Christians supposed to tithe to the church? We know that they paid tithes in the Old Testament. I do not know of any scripture that says we must or that the storehouse has become the local church. Most congregations that teach this assume that the church took the place of the Temple, and that the principal of tithing still applies. That is one of those things that I would say a man or woman needs to follow their conscience. If you feel like God would have you tithe, do it. If not, don't. I have no issue with ministers getting full time salaries. That is completely Biblical, and tithes do help pay salaries. Notice what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:7-14
Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should pow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap of your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about the holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
It is because of passages like this that many take the teachings about tithing to the temple, and say it now applies to the local church. I can see legitimate issues that the videos address. You can have a real church in someone's home, if that is where a congregation meets. You could have a real church meet in the park, at an harbor, a rented storefront, or even a message board. Still, if a church in a city owns a building where they meet, I am not sure what we should call the building other than a church. I do not see the harm in placing the name of the congregation that meets at this building on the building itself.
solid , I am not sure what it is about the videos that you found so offensive? If you do not see what is being said as correct, nobody says you have to accept it. There are some things that are legitimate, like the idea that repeating a prayer is guaranteed to save you eternally. If you pray a prayer asking Jesus to forgive your sins and come into your heart to save you and be your Lord and Savior, and you mean it, I believe He will do so, but many go to these altar calls and never really get saved. They just go through the motions. There is a lot to think about here, and more scriptures we can include that would add to this discussion. I think this is an important topic, and I thank Dezi for giving us these videos to look at, as they certainly have got me thinking about what is Biblical and what is not in the modern church.
Now about altar calls, are we using the word altar in a way that God would approve of. I really do not care about what I think, or what anyone thinks, I really want to see the way God sees things. And I think in this area, we sometimes can be very flippant of how we use the words of God. There seems to be more a focus of not offending someone, rather than seeking the meaning God put to it. Now God is very patient with us, and I thank God he is, and he knows our hearts. But how much are we concerned about offending God? Just using his word, putting our approval to it, yet not caring in a big way to how God sees it, or if even it is an offence to him? Let us get to this word altar. Jas 2:21 (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? The word altar means this: (Strong's concordance, word altar)
(G2379 θυσιαστήριον thusiastērion thoo-see-as-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of G2378; a place of sacrifice, that is, an altar (specifically or generally, literally or figuratively): - altar. Total KJV occurrences: 23)The altar is a place of sacrifice. In essence the cross was the place of Jesus' sacrifice. Now I am 100% for people being called up front for prayer, but often times they make the front of the building the altar, they say come to the altar. What I would say, instead of come to the altar, I would say, just say come up front for prayer, rather than risk offending God, or adding my own meaning to the word altar. So the altar is a place of sacrifice, but how would that apply to us as a church? Remember what the sacrifice was, it was Jesus himself. Now the altar was not Jesus, but the sacrifice sure was. Rev 6:9 (9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Now we can see that there is an heavenly altar, and also the bible mentions somewhere about shaking the horns at the altar, well when we seek God in prayer, we are coming before his heavenly altar. So church wise, we do not come before the altar by going somewhere in a building, whether it be up front, in the back or in the middle of the building, but rather we come before the altar, when we seek him in prayer, whether your are seated in the back, the front, in the middle, or outside. Why make a specific place in a building the altar, when what God wants is for us to come before what truly is the altar, which is in heaven? So does that mean that if I did not come up front, even though I prayed while being in the back, that I did not come before the altar? Some might say this is nit picking, but we have to go by what the word says, why are we more concerned about offending men rather than offending God?
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Feb 24, 2020 12:11:36 GMT -5
And just to mention that the term altar is used in Catholicism because their doctrine is that the bread and wine actually transubstantiates into the actual body and blood of Jesus and that they are therefore at the altar of His sacrifice. Yikes, that should make us think twice....He is not being sacrificed again and again, God forbid...and I even think it's possible that might have something to do with why the Lord was so severe when Moses struck the Rock twice. Jesus said to "GO and make disciples", the idea of an altar in the protestant churches is at least partly because they have replaced "going out" to make disciples to "bringing them in" to make disciples. There is no altar or "altar" calls out in the highways and biways or in the workplace or in people's homes. The altar is just what we call the place we meet with God. That is how I look at it. Your bed or sofa or a bench could potentially be your altar, if that is where you kneel in prayer. In the church, you can make your pew your altar.
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Post by Giller on Feb 24, 2020 12:19:57 GMT -5
The altar today is the heavenly altar, and when we pray we come before this altar.
In fact he sprinkled his blood before the heavenly altar.
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