karanbac
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Post by karanbac on Jun 2, 2018 18:07:37 GMT -5
ALL TOTAL CHRISTIANITY THE TRUTH OF OSAS
John 10: 27-30
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish; neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one. Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
Romans 8:30
“And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.”
John 3:16 For God so loved the World, that He gave His only Begotten Son, That whosoever believeth in Him Shall not perish but hath everlasting life.
These are just a few verses that prove that once we are truly saved we are always saved forever. I could go on and on about posting scripture in this Article, but I won’t I will say this Even Paul believed in Once Saved Always Saved. He knew that he was saved by grace through faith alone.
Many People believe that one can choose not to believe and be lost again. I struggled with that issue for a long time. Just because someone does not believe in OSAS does not mean they are not saved. Just incorrect but still saved if they have truly believed.
They next question would be, “if that is the case why can’t we just get ourselves saved and then go on sinning? The answer to that is simple, we will never stop sinning until we are given a new body in the rapture or when Jesus comes back the second time.
As Paul pointed out this is not a license to sin. But sadly as long as the true believer is living in his old body his old body will sin. 1 John: 1:8 states that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But verse 9 is good news for the believer because it states. If we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I believe that verse is for an already born again believer. It is an encouragement to us true believers. Anyone that lives in sin and is not miserable i.e. convicted by the Holy Spirit is not saved.
This does not include past sins which we have already confessed. The Devil is the accuser of the brethren and will say, “How can you believe God will forgive you when you committed that horrible sin. In the true believer sin causes death of fellowship with God. In my humble opinion there is nothing worse than a believer that has gone astray. Even worse than unbelievers.
Now saying this we must love our enemies, forgive those who offend us. Forgiveness is for us, not just the target of our forgiveness.
In closing I will say I am not saying those who are true believers and yet do not believe in OSAS is not saved. That is so not true. I am saying they are wrong. I cannot believe after all the terrible things I have done as His child; He still loves me and forgives me. If I get angry with my sons and say you are not my son anymore that would not be true that man would still be my son. The same way if my sons would say; You are not my dad anymore. I would still be their dad.
This is the same as our relationship with God. Once we are saved truly saved, we are always saved. Jesus will never leave us or forsake us or let us go.
As Paul tells us, we are changed, with a new man put on, we are compelled NOT to sin although we may still sin it it no longer our focus in this fallen world. We are focused on Christ and His Righteousness to help us and guide us to live as best we can in this fallen world until He returns.
He is My Lord and My Savior, He has saved me from all my sins, past present and future. That is why He is my God.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 2, 2018 20:35:50 GMT -5
karanbac If you believe in Him, you are saved... There is no doubt.
The question is what would cause people to stop believing in Him: The love for sin, self, the world.
We must warn people of that, especially those who are new.
"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God..." - Hebrews 3:12
You are saved as long as you keep believing in Him.
"but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." - Romans 11:22
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Post by justinadams on Jun 3, 2018 3:02:29 GMT -5
Unfortunately, OSAS has been taken by so many to bolster their church business and keep the dollars flowing. It is far 'nicer' to preach this than the converse - the opposite. The scriptures say 'there will be a great falling away'. This is plain speaking. It is a warning. Thus it must have merit and accuracy for the believer to beware. I have seen a great deal in my fairly long life. One thing is for sure, the more I know, the less I think I know. If someone warns of a weir, do not swim there. If the pi-reps warn of icing, do not fly unless you are equipped. If the cave mouth says to beware falling rocks, do not complain if you get bashed on the head.
So, likewise, if you are warned of a great falling away you do well to heed it and examine the possible circumstances that might contribute to this. Don't just say 'Oh, you/they were never properly saved in the first place'. That is disingenuous - kinda like disowning somebody because they are not a flat-Earther. In other words, your criteria is unprovable and suspect. If you have to rely on what someone is theoretically doing or not doing to prove or unprove a scriptural truth, then your logic becomes circular and worthless.
Men have invented all kinds of doctrines to make themselves feel good and secure in a world that is largely untamed. My God is not a man that He should lie... if He says it is possible to fall away, I believe Him.
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karanbac
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Post by karanbac on Jun 3, 2018 12:26:07 GMT -5
Scripture says IF IT WERE possible, even the elect would be lead astray...
But its not possible as God has assured His chosen of their salvation forever once they are born again.
The emphasis is on how terrible the days will be when that time comes.....
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Post by justinadams on Jun 3, 2018 12:56:31 GMT -5
karanbac If you believe in Him, you are saved... There is no doubt.
The question is what would cause people to stop believing in Him: The love for sin, self, the world.
We must warn people of that, especially those who are new.
"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God..." - Hebrews 3:12
You are saved as long as you keep believing in Him.
"but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." - Romans 11:22 Yes. There is no more OSAS than there is Predestination. Both are major misunderstandings. All that are willing may be saved - this has nothing to do with predestination vis-a-vis the Calvanistic TULIP model. Neither is it helpful to promise believers OSAS. We should take care not to deceive, even by mistake or design. Yeshua came to save the whole world - His Creation, His Heathen Inheritance - everyone has equal chance at Salvation and everyone has equal right to fall away as well. We are made in the IMAGE of Yahweh. He is a Free Agent and gave us the ultimate freedom to choose. He bent over backwards to save us by Sacrificing Himself and that is a pure and worthy sacrifice for the WHOLE WORLD. He put to rights the dispersion at Babylon; Reversed the Fallen Angles' sin of corrupting humanity and animals; and He Saves everyone that will Look on Him and Believe. Just like the snake on the post in Moses day healed all that looked upon it. Yeshua said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men (mankind) unto me". Everybody without exception!!!
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 3, 2018 13:15:23 GMT -5
Yes. There is no more OSAS than there is Predestination. Both are major misunderstandings. All that are willing may be saved - this has nothing to do with predestination vis-a-vis the Calvanistic TULIP model. Neither is it helpful to promise believers OSAS. We should take care not to deceive, even by mistake or design. Yeshua came to save the whole world - His Creation, His Heathen Inheritance - everyone has equal chance at Salvation and everyone has equal right to fall away as well. We are made in the IMAGE of Yahweh. He is a Free Agent and gave us the ultimate freedom to choose. He bent over backwards to save us by Sacrificing Himself and that is a pure and worthy sacrifice for the WHOLE WORLD. He put to rights the dispersion at Babylon; Reversed the Fallen Angles' sin of corrupting humanity and animals; and He Saves everyone that will Look on Him and Believe. Just like the snake on the post in Moses day healed all that looked upon it. Yeshua said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men (mankind) unto me". Everybody without exception!!! I believe the reason why many will not be saved is this: "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." - John 3:19
"For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." - Matthew 13:15
"You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you." - Acts 7:51In other words, they loved the lie more than the truth; darkness rather than light."for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God." - John 12:43
How are our hearts?! That is the question we should make to ourselves. "Keep your heart with all diligence, For out of it spring the issues of life." - Proverbs 4:23 God bless you in Jesus' name!
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 3, 2018 16:12:58 GMT -5
karanbac If you believe in Him, you are saved... There is no doubt.
The question is what would cause people to stop believing in Him: The love for sin, self, the world.
We must warn people of that, especially those who are new.
"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God..." - Hebrews 3:12
You are saved as long as you keep believing in Him.
"but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." - Romans 11:22 Yes. There is no more OSAS than there is Predestination. Both are major misunderstandings. All that are willing may be saved - this has nothing to do with predestination vis-a-vis the Calvanistic TULIP model. Neither is it helpful to promise believers OSAS. We should take care not to deceive, even by mistake or design. Yeshua came to save the whole world - His Creation, His Heathen Inheritance - everyone has equal chance at Salvation and everyone has equal right to fall away as well. We are made in the IMAGE of Yahweh. He is a Free Agent and gave us the ultimate freedom to choose. He bent over backwards to save us by Sacrificing Himself and that is a pure and worthy sacrifice for the WHOLE WORLD. He put to rights the dispersion at Babylon; Reversed the Fallen Angles' sin of corrupting humanity and animals; and He Saves everyone that will Look on Him and Believe. Just like the snake on the post in Moses day healed all that looked upon it. Yeshua said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men (mankind) unto me". Everybody without exception!!! Election and predestination are actually Scriptural and true. Once-saved-always saved is not. Sheep always have been and always will be sheep and goats always have been and always will be goats. A sheep cannot become a goat and a goat cannot become a sheep. A sheep can DIE (spiritually, through unfaithfulness to Jesus Christ and the forfeiture of his or her eternal life) but a dead sheep does not become a goat (even though that dead sheep will wind up on the left side of the Throne on Judgment Day, with the goats). Children of the devil never become children of God. That matter has been decided from eternity, but only God knows who is what. Not all unsaved people are lost sheep; some are lost sheep and some are goats and tares. All the lost sheep will be found (that is, will receive eternal life), but goats never will because they do not belong to Jesus. They are of their father the devil and are not children of God at all. Only the elect of God are children of God, and only they will ever come to know Him. The others are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. (See Romans 9:6-24.) God's sovereign will governs man's free will, as it does everything in creation. No man can choose or do anything with his free will that God does not allow or enable him to choose or do. And unless He wills and enables a man to choose Himself, the man never will, even if he has a lifetime and every opportunity to do so. The only people who will ever choose God are those whom God has chosen from eternity to enable to choose Him by His grace. Anyway, that's all I have to say about this subject---this battle between Arminius and Calvin. Arminius was wrong about predestination, and Calvin took predestination too far. They were both wrong. And this is one of those subjects that, like the pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, "rapture" debate can only be settled for individuals by God giving them the correct understanding of it from His word by interpreting it to them and assuring them of what is correct---which He apparently did not do for either Jacobus Arminius or John Calvin regarding election and predestination. ...And as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48) And those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified. (Romans 8:29,30)
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 3, 2018 16:46:05 GMT -5
Election and predestination are actually Scriptural and true. Once-saved-always saved is not. Sheep always have been and always will be sheep and goats always have been and always will be goats. A sheep cannot become a goat and a goat cannot become a sheep. A sheep can DIE (spiritually, through unfaithfulness to Jesus Christ and the forfeiture of his or her eternal life) but a dead sheep does not become a goat (even though that dead sheep will wind up on the left side of the Throne on Judgment Day, with the goats). Children of the devil never become children of God. That matter has been decided from eternity, but only God knows who is what. Not all unsaved people are lost sheep; some are lost sheep and some are goats and tares. All the lost sheep will be found (that is, will receive eternal life), but goats never will because they do not belong to Jesus. They are of their father the devil and are not children of God at all. Only the elect of God are children of God, and only they will ever come to know Him. The others are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. (See Romans 9:6-24.) God's sovereign will governs man's free will, as it does everything in creation. No man can choose or do anything with his free will that God does not allow or enable him to choose or do. And unless He wills and enables a man to choose Himself, the man never will, even if he has a lifetime and every opportunity to do so. The only people who will ever choose God are those whom God has chosen from eternity to enable to choose Him by His grace. Anyway, that's all I have to say about this subject---this battle between Arminius and Calvin. Arminius was wrong about predestination, and Calvin took predestination too far. They were both wrong. And this is one of those subjects that, like the pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, "rapture" debate can only be settled for individuals by God giving them the correct understanding of it from His word by interpreting it to them and assuring them of what is correct---which He apparently did not do for either Jacobus Arminius or John Calvin regarding election and predestination. ...And as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48) And those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified. (Romans 8:29,30) I hope I am one of His sheep then...
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 3, 2018 17:00:55 GMT -5
Election and predestination are actually Scriptural and true. Once-saved-always saved is not. Sheep always have been and always will be sheep and goats always have been and always will be goats. A sheep cannot become a goat and a goat cannot become a sheep. A sheep can DIE (spiritually, through unfaithfulness to Jesus Christ and the forfeiture of his or her eternal life) but a dead sheep does not become a goat (even though that dead sheep will wind up on the left side of the Throne on Judgment Day, with the goats). Children of the devil never become children of God. That matter has been decided from eternity, but only God knows who is what. Not all unsaved people are lost sheep; some are lost sheep and some are goats and tares. All the lost sheep will be found (that is, will receive eternal life), but goats never will because they do not belong to Jesus. They are of their father the devil and are not children of God at all. Only the elect of God are children of God, and only they will ever come to know Him. The others are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. (See Romans 9:6-24.) God's sovereign will governs man's free will, as it does everything in creation. No man can choose or do anything with his free will that God does not allow or enable him to choose or do. And unless He wills and enables a man to choose Himself, the man never will, even if he has a lifetime and every opportunity to do so. The only people who will ever choose God are those whom God has chosen from eternity to enable to choose Him by His grace. Anyway, that's all I have to say about this subject---this battle between Arminius and Calvin. Arminius was wrong about predestination, and Calvin took predestination too far. They were both wrong. And this is one of those subjects that, like the pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, "rapture" debate can only be settled for individuals by God giving them the correct understanding of it from His word by interpreting it to them and assuring them of what is correct---which He apparently did not do for either Jacobus Arminius or John Calvin regarding election and predestination. ...And as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48) And those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified. (Romans 8:29,30) I hope I am one of His sheep then... If you're born again you definitely are. (Only you and God know that for sure; no person can assure you of this.) You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.
(Romans 8:9)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2018 19:01:58 GMT -5
It's not easy to fathom how the Lord rules and reigns and has "gone before" and ordained everything ahead of time as it were, according to His foreknowledge. The Lord is righteous and just....we know He has not created any soul on purpose that they would perish.....because the bible says He is willing that NONE perish. It's really by His foreknowledge that He knew who would accept or reject Him....and has "elected" and planned everything accordingly.
1Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 3, 2018 22:01:22 GMT -5
It's not easy to fathom how the Lord rules and reigns and has "gone before" and ordained everything ahead of time as it were, according to His foreknowledge. The Lord is righteous and just....we know He has not created any soul on purpose that they would perish.....because the bible says He is willing that NONE perish. It's really by His foreknowledge that He knew who would accept or reject Him....and has "elected" and planned everything accordingly. 1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Sister , I have by grace had the greatest peace in not concerning myself with matters that are too high for me . We should just keep it simple . Preach JESUS ONLY saves , and that we must remain in HIM to the end . That is all we need to know . Calvin killed folks and this osas has destroyed churches by and large . So why learn either . Just know this, JESUS IS the ONE who can KEEP us from falling , THUS LET US OBEY HIM . He gives us all WE NEED INHIM to overcome all evil . Just trust in HIM , read sound docrtrine , be made wise unto salvation , and worry not about meats which sure as heck aint helping those trapped in them . We got wars over this and that , AND YET all we need to KNOW IS JESUS saves , GET that gospel out , and follow HIM to the end . Simple .
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Post by frienduff on Jun 3, 2018 22:06:59 GMT -5
TO LEARN JESUS is all we need . Learn the pattern the early church taught , learn it well. the scrips make one wise unto salvation through faith in Christ . ITS simple . THE ONLY condmentation for mankind is THIS , MEN resist the SPIRIT , MEN refuse the light . Men love darkness and even when many are called they wont remain , cuase lust chokes the word right out . SO all we need to concern ourselves with , IS LEARNING JESUS . Feasting on sound bible doctrine by which we grow . Learn those letters well , that the apostels wrote, LEARN the gosples well, Feast on those words that truly edify the soul and build up those who do so. SO that they are no longer tossed to and fro by crafty deceitful men . Every word JESUS said ISFOR OUR good . He knows what can kill our walk . SO he has lots we can learn , by reading HIS OWN SAYINGS . Folks the walk is simple . FOLLOW , TRUST , OBEY the ONE WHO IS ABLE to keep us from falling , DO that and we shall NEVER FALL. NOW HOW easy was that . Man complicates everything . BUTTRUTH is so peaceful and easy to be understood IF we have CHRIST .
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Post by justinadams on Jun 4, 2018 4:30:26 GMT -5
Calvinism - Named after John Calvin The five points to Calvinism have the acronym "TULIP" which stands for the following: 1. T = TOTAL DEPRAVITY (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin. Man is completely touched by sin in all that he is but is not as bad as he could be. Furthermore, this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not, of their own free will, choose to receive Christ.) 2. U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (God elects a person based upon nothing in that person because there is nothing in him that would make him worthy of being chosen; rather, God's election is based on what is in God. God chose us because he decided to bestow his love and grace upon us--not because we are worthy in and of ourselves of being saved). 3. L = LIMITED ATONEMENT (also known as Particular Atonement. Christ bore the sin only of the elect - not everyone who ever lived.) 4. I = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE (The term unfortunately suggests a mechanical and coercive force upon an unwilling subject. This is not the case. Instead, it is the act of God making the person willing to receive him. It does not mean that a person cannot resist God's will. It means that when God moves to save/regenerate a person, the sinner cannot thwart God's movement; and he will be regenerated). 5. P = PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS (also known as Once Saved Always Saved. That we are so secure in Christ that we cannot fall away.)
Arminianism was is named after Jacobus Arminian The five points to Arminianism have the following acronym "HCURF" which stand for the following: 1. H = HUMAN FREE WILL (This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God. His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature). 2. C = CONDITIONAL ELECTION (God chose people for salvation based on his foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message). 3. U = UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT (The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived). 4. R = RESISTABLE GRACE (The teaching that the grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ). 5. F = FALL FROM GRACE (The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation).
I will posit that BOTH of these are flawed - most especially the Calvinistic model. They are formulated by mere men and do NOT reflect the True and Loving Father. They use scripture to support their various positions - they do not use scripture to understand the Lord.
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Post by justinadams on Jun 4, 2018 5:08:03 GMT -5
It's not easy to fathom how the Lord rules and reigns and has "gone before" and ordained everything ahead of time as it were, according to His foreknowledge. The Lord is righteous and just....we know He has not created any soul on purpose that they would perish.....because the bible says He is willing that NONE perish. It's really by His foreknowledge that He knew who would accept or reject Him....and has "elected" and planned everything accordingly. 1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. We are made in the Image of God. This means that we are Imagers of Him. We are like Him. Our thought processes and characters are like His. He made us free agents. We are not predetermined to do anything that would make our Lord less of a Person than He is, or that would make us less of the person He created us to be. And as the scripture say very clearly, He is no respecter of persons and does not wish that any would perish. What more could He do? He is Good all the time. It is a truism that he will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. It is His choice just as it is our choice to accept that mercy. His mercy extends to us all without any reservation. Yeshua (Yahweh is Salvation) came to show us the Way. He died for all of us and for His Creation. He loves His Creation and that is why He gave Himself as a Full and Sufficient Sacrifice for all of us for all time. Fischer was once asked, "How many moves ahead do you plan?" He replied that he did not do it this way, he said he just made the best possible move each time. Our Lord is very, very adaptable. He can determine stuff, but He has had to make many and varied changes throughout His dealings with mankind and His High Council of administering spirits. Read the Tanach thoroughly to understand this. It is a fascinating study of move and counter-move. Our God is an awesome God!!! Just because He can see what will happen does not mean it will happen. Take for instance David. He asked the Lord if he would be given away by the citizens of the city he was in. The Lords said YES, they will betray you. So David left, and was not captured by his enemies. The Lord 'foreknew' what would happen, but because David left, IT DID NOT HAPPEN. This is a pivotal point that we MUST come to terms with. We must understand the dynamic of the Lord's workings in the world. We humans are often not very kind about our Lord and suppose many flawed attributes that basically reflect our sorry mental state and not the character of our Loving Father. We do horrible things to each other and then claim that God made us do it or it was His Will. The Lord has allowed us many and varied acts that He does not condone, but because we have 'gotten away with it' we erroneously think He was OK with it. Sometimes even a donkey might be used to speak truth to us. We are fallen humans and therefore often have fallen and very mean notions about our God. We have maligned the Lord High God so much with our religious dogmas. In doing so, we tie millstones around the necks of His children. We expect believers to do and believe dogmas that the Lord never intended, but because we are free agents and the demons whisper so loudly in our ears, we often are deaf to the voice of our Lord. We should be very careful not to heap burdens on the backs of His loved ones. Rather we should walk circumspectly and humbly with our Lord, preferring one another in respectful grace.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2018 8:50:22 GMT -5
\o/ Amen justin.....we sometimes forget how the Lord is willing to change His mind at times. We just can't really fully fathom Him, but just endeavour to get to know Him better, and grow to be more like Him ourselves. Yes, it's so true how we often transfer our own 'sorry state' onto Him, that's an excellent point.....so it's helpful sometimes to know ourselves better in the light too and that helps in getting "self" out of the way to help us rightly divide the word truth.
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