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Post by John on Mar 9, 2020 5:04:00 GMT -5
There is a serious misunderstanding in the church world today over sin, and it goes something like this. Many believers think that we are all forever in bondage to commit sin. They believe we cannot go an hour without committing sin. Some will go so far as to say that the only time they do not sin is when they are sleeping, and they will falsely accuse anyone who disagrees with this erroneous teaching of being full of pride. Much of this is because of a misunderstanding of what Paul was teaching in Romans.
Paul was not teaching that a Christian is forever in bondage to sin. Paul was not even teaching sanctification as a second definite work of grace as Wesley taught, but Wesley was closer to the truth than most, because he recognized a change taking place from Romans chapter 7 to Romans chapter 8. He saw this as sanctification. I saw that something had changed too from Romans 7 to Romans 8, and I give Wesley credit for pointing that out, but what he was seeing was not sanctification, but the new birth. Paul was speaking of the difference between the two covenants, the first one where all were under the law of Moses, and tried to serve God in the flesh, but failed, and the second one, where we are born again, and made free to truly serve God.
Romans chapter 7 is not speaking of the "Christian struggle" with sin. It is speaking of the struggle for men to keep the law of Moses. What confuses people is the way Paul says things in chapter 7. It appears that he is saying that he is struggling with sin in the present tense, but he is speaking about himself when he was still trying to work things out while under the law of Moses. That is what the whole conversation was about, not those living under the New Covenant. Lets go back to Romans 7:12 and begin there.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Paul is not speaking about himself after being born again. He is speaking of his life under the law of Moses. He is not speaking of a "Christian struggle" with the flesh. He is speaking of how that under the law, he desired to follow God and obey the law, but could not do it. He would do the things he hates.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Paul is not speaking of life in Christ as a constant bondage to sin and the flesh. He is speaking of what life is like under the law of Moses. He tried as hard as he could to live right under the law. He loved the law, and wanted to obey it, but his performance lacked. "That which is good I find not." He says that under the law, every time he tried to do good, evil was present with him. He does not say that he delights in serving Christ. He says he delights "in the law of God." That is what he was speaking of. He is making a comparison between the two covenants. He is speaking of trying to serve God after the flesh as opposed to after the Spirit.
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Now we come to chapter 8, and where victory comes in, not through a second, definite work of grace called sanctification, but through being born again, and being under the New Covenant.
THERE is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
What we often experience is the children of the flesh persecuting the children of the promise. The children of promise walk in the Spirit, and according to the new man, but the children of the flesh continue to live as Paul did before he was born again. They claim to put their trust in Christ, but they live like the old man did who was under the law, unable to do anything but live after the flesh and sin all the time. That is the battle that is being waged today. Those who are persecuting us are people that have no understanding that through Christ Jesus, we are no longer servants to sin. They are content to live as under the law. They are content to say that the only time they do not sin is while they are sleeping. That may be true for them, but it means they are walking after the flesh and not after the Spirit, and that will lead to death.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 7:03:56 GMT -5
Lately I have been wondering if there is an aspect that we all get trained/tutored by the Law after coming to faith, just based on observation of my own life as well as other believers.....I think many sin after coming to faith in Christ because of not knowing yet what sin is, until they learn and are tutored from the word of God. Since Israel is the church's ensample.......and the Law was added because of transgression (sin)...they had come out of Egypt and been baptized (Red Sea) but hadn't yet learned what sin is so as to avoid committing sin/transgression.
For this reason I've been wondering if it might actually be more accurate to think in terms of coming to faith in Christ as being conception rather than being the new birth yet. Mary is also an example and type of the church.....and "what was conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" until Jesus was "born". Just an observation that all or most who are new to the faith seem to serve out of flesh and self-effort at first that I have seen, and many don't grow beyond that. At this point I'm more inclined to agree tentatively with Wesley that what Paul was speaking about was sanctification....I think a few may be sanctified more quickly and for the majority they take longer. I know this isn't a conventional way of looking at salvation and the new birth etc, but I wanted to put this forward for discussion. And if this is true, it seems like something that would be very important for our growth, and understanding what we are reaching for.
Hos 13:13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children (alluding to womb and birth canal).
This point of view would agree with what Jesus said about counting the cost and having enough to finish the building of the tower. Possibly all this also has to do with the wise and unwise virgins, though I 'm not sure, just considering it....that extra oil is for sure the Holy Spirit....having enough of the Holy Spirit to finish what was begun (conceived?) in us.
Also considering that Paul spoke of it being no longer I who sin, but sin living in me...so this has to be talking about someone under grace who's sins are not being imputed to them... a child of God.....so someone conceived of the Holy Spirit (what is conventionally thought of as being born again).
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Mar 9, 2020 7:24:45 GMT -5
Lately I have been wondering if there is an aspect that we all get trained/tutored by the Law after coming to faith, just based on observation of my own life as well as other believers.....I think many sin after coming to faith in Christ because of not knowing yet what sin is, until they learn and are tutored from the word of God. Since Israel is the church's ensample.......and the Law was added because of transgression (sin)...they had come out of Egypt and been baptized (Red Sea) but hadn't yet learned what sin is so as to avoid committing sin/transgression. For this reason I've been wondering if it might actually be more accurate to think in terms of coming to faith in Christ as being conception rather than being the new birth yet. Mary is also an example and type of the church.....and "what was conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" until Jesus was "born". Just an observation that all or most who are new to the faith seem to serve out of flesh and self-effort at first that I have seen, and many don't grow beyond that. At this point I'm more inclined to agree tentatively with Wesley that what Paul was speaking about was sanctification....I think a few may be sanctified more quickly and for the majority they take longer. I know this isn't a conventional way of looking at salvation and the new birth etc, but I wanted to put this forward for discussion. And if this is true, it seems like something that would be very important for our growth, and understanding what we are reaching for. Hos 13:13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children (alluding to womb and birth canal). This point of view would agree with what Jesus said about counting the cost and having enough to finish the building of the tower. Possibly all this also has to do with the wise and unwise virgins, though I 'm not sure, just considering it....that extra oil is for sure the Holy Spirit....having enough of the Holy Spirit to finish what was begun (conceived?) in us. Also considering that Paul spoke of it being no longer I who sin, but sin living in me...so this has to be talking about someone under grace who's sins are not being imputed to them... a child of God.....so someone conceived of the Holy Spirit (what is conventionally thought of as being born again). I think I understand. In my efforts to get closer to God this year, I gave up all secular music. But in the process of writing Christian songs, the Holy Spirit encouraged me to go back and listen to certain select ones to clean from the measures that really spoke to me the most. I gave up all romance stories, movies, etc even Christian ones. But the Bible pictures Christ as a Bridegroom and the Church as a Bride. The Lord encouraged me to think about it. My conscience is still kind of weak. But is that what you mean? At first, maybe it's natural to cling to blanket rules and boundaries. But when you get used to being led by the Spirit, it's easier to recognize when you're given permission to do something or not.
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777
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Post by 777 on Mar 9, 2020 7:56:38 GMT -5
The Bible says that sin is the transgression of the law, and 1 John 3 makes it clear that a Christian doesn't continue in sin. I don't think that walking in the Spirit means God allows us to sin at times, but the things you mentioned Naomi, were not actual sins. I can believe the Lord could teach you things, even through secular music and stories.
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777
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Post by 777 on Mar 9, 2020 8:09:40 GMT -5
It is nice seeing people think outside the box. Where I attend church, they hold to sanctification as Wesley teaches it. What John said does make sense regarding Paul's meaning. I would add one thing.. Even if John is right, and I am thinking he is, we still have to choose to walk in the Spirit each day. A born again Christian could still choose to sin, but they are without excuse, because Jesus broke the chains of bondage to sin, and empowers us to live right. There still remains a choice. I can choose to walk according to the flesh, but that will lead to forfeiting my inheritance in God's Kingdom.
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Mar 9, 2020 8:16:26 GMT -5
The Bible says that sin is the transgression of the law, and 1 John 3 makes it clear that a Christian doesn't continue in sin. I don't think that walking in the Spirit means God allows us to sin at times, but the things you mentioned Naomi, were not actual sins. I can believe the Lord could teach you things, even through secular music and stories. I think it was good for me to obey my conscience from faith. But being led by the Spirit is not the same as clinging to arbitrary rules. Like the church where some of the people didn't eat meat. Let them follow their conscience. But it's a weak conscience. Because meat is not a sin. But it would've been a sin to them if they believed that it was. In my case, I didn't want any distractions. No no no no stumbling blocks. I put them all in the altar to burn up in smoke. But I understimated God. He usually either replaces what you give up with something better, or gives it back once He sees it's not an idol anymore.
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Post by frienduff on Mar 9, 2020 8:27:39 GMT -5
We have the simple pattern JESUS gave and then the apostels taught it too . number one , IF one truly has the SPIRIT , then they have all they need to overcome evil . POINT to the POWER . Number two , if any does err , confess and forsake and pray one for another that ye may be healed . The problem is men are not teaching the whole counsel of truth . Our approach towards sin , should sound identical to HOW JESUS approached it . VERY SERIOUS and the apostels were the same way . Let it not once be named among you . even saying if others err and wont repent , get them out from amongst you . How bout another one of pauls warnings . Where he says , IF he comes he will not spare , talking about those who had sinned and NOT REPENTED . SO you see the problem is , TODAY this kind of stuff is not being done at all . Instead we keep hearing , OH GOD knows ya sin , OH etc and etc . The problem is , with this kind of doctrine , it only opens the door to leaven coming in and getting worse . And it did too . Seeker friendly was a bomb of a disaster . Not only that , but we should be using the same approach in all things that the original ones did . Talking and reminding about HOW one must endure faithful TO THE END . focusing on the END reward and the heeding of the SPIRIT which gives us both the unction and ability to fight the fight . Look at the examples of the apostels to the children . DID they not warn about error and did they not say , Ye must endure faithful TO THE END . DID JESUS not say the same thing on earth . And how about we look at the message to the seven churches . HOW come it was repent or else . but today its, OH no need to be a naysayer , ya cant lose salvation . According to peter and paul me sees an entirely different approach . It was die daily , fight the fight , warnings about what happened to those who left their first estate and warning all NOT to do that either . LOOK at the over all reminders to the churches . Look at the warning even paul gave about those who left off the first faith and now followed satan . Look at the message to the church of Ephesus concering the first love . aka , That means THEY HAD IT . THEY ACTUALLY had it and were losing it . and it was REPENT OR ELSE . SEE the whole mindset of the early church was , ONLY JESUS saves , but if one continues not IN HIM , if one continues not to heed the Spirit , THEY SURE CAN BE and WILL BE CAST OUT . SO many no longer even know the severity of GOD , and preach a false goodness too . WE must learn that pattern , we must heed that pattern , and the truth is , IF ONE HAS the SPIRIT then why would they hate the original pattern . MAKES No sense . Lambs love truth , and lambs should know that every warning to every promise from GOD and those men who knew HIM , are just FOR OUR OWN GOOD . that we take heed to do the good and flee the evil . Folks were lulled into a sleep under doctrines of men , and now those doctrines grow far more worse as well . Because let a little leaven in , AND ITS GONNA ONLY GET WORSE . Either we teach the whole truth , or prepare to fall . all reminders are for our good .
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Post by Giller on Mar 9, 2020 8:51:00 GMT -5
I also believe that we do not have to sin 24 hours a day, otherwise there would not be victory in Christ.
The bible says this:
Rom 6:11-12 (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
We are able to not let sin reign in our mortal bodies, for it says so.
Heb 4:15 (15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
And even though we do not have to sin, and have victory in Christ, that does not mean that there aren't Christians who struggle at times with sin.
And these Christians do not want to sin, for they do not seek to go after the way of sin, just have a harder time with getting victory over this one or that one.
Now we do have victory in Christ Jesus, but also we are continuously growing in Christ Jesus, and there are some who are genuinely Christian which have a hard time walking in victory in certain areas.
And even though we do not have to sin, we know as Christians that it happens from time to time.
And in those times we need to confess them before God, and yes we are being continuously sanctified, that is truth, and if not, it is because you are not growing, and that is not a good sign.
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Post by Giller on Mar 9, 2020 8:52:11 GMT -5
At times even Christians try to get victory through the flesh, and then God has to bring them back on track to faith in Christ.
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777
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Post by 777 on Mar 9, 2020 9:00:46 GMT -5
At times even Christians try to get victory through the flesh, and then God has to bring them back on track to faith in Christ. How does one do that?
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Post by frienduff on Mar 9, 2020 9:01:51 GMT -5
IN JESUS we have the victory , now let all continue IN HIM . SOUND THOSE PRAISES OUT TO THE LORD . POINT to HIM and all HIS SAYINGS and to all the apostels would later write as well .
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777
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Post by 777 on Mar 9, 2020 9:06:13 GMT -5
IN JESUS we have the victory , now let all continue IN HIM . SOUND THOSE PRAISES OUT TO THE LORD . POINT to HIM and all HIS SAYINGS and to all the apostels would later write as well . Amen, but still, we are told we must resist the devil, and he will flee. We have victory in Jesus, but we must walk in that victory.
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Post by frienduff on Mar 9, 2020 9:08:57 GMT -5
IN JESUS we have the victory , now let all continue IN HIM . SOUND THOSE PRAISES OUT TO THE LORD . POINT to HIM and all HIS SAYINGS and to all the apostels would later write as well . Amen, but still, we are told we must resist the devil, and he will flee. We have victory in Jesus, but we must walk in that victory. That's right . BRING ALL REMINDERS . ALL REMINDERS . YES , oh yes we must do this too . Lambs love all reminders , for those reminders in that bible , they are for our own good . SO post many of them my friend . bring an aresnal of reminders .
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Post by frienduff on Mar 9, 2020 9:10:41 GMT -5
Here is a good reminder . Goodness towards thee , IF you continue IN HIS GOODNESS , otherwise ye shall but cut off . YES all reminders , all warnings and all promises are for the good of our soul . Bring many reminders my friends . lambs love truth .
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 9:13:59 GMT -5
Lately I have been wondering if there is an aspect that we all get trained/tutored by the Law after coming to faith, just based on observation of my own life as well as other believers.....I think many sin after coming to faith in Christ because of not knowing yet what sin is, until they learn and are tutored from the word of God. Since Israel is the church's ensample.......and the Law was added because of transgression (sin)...they had come out of Egypt and been baptized (Red Sea) but hadn't yet learned what sin is so as to avoid committing sin/transgression. For this reason I've been wondering if it might actually be more accurate to think in terms of coming to faith in Christ as being conception rather than being the new birth yet. Mary is also an example and type of the church.....and "what was conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" until Jesus was "born". Just an observation that all or most who are new to the faith seem to serve out of flesh and self-effort at first that I have seen, and many don't grow beyond that. At this point I'm more inclined to agree tentatively with Wesley that what Paul was speaking about was sanctification....I think a few may be sanctified more quickly and for the majority they take longer. I know this isn't a conventional way of looking at salvation and the new birth etc, but I wanted to put this forward for discussion. And if this is true, it seems like something that would be very important for our growth, and understanding what we are reaching for. Hos 13:13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children (alluding to womb and birth canal). This point of view would agree with what Jesus said about counting the cost and having enough to finish the building of the tower. Possibly all this also has to do with the wise and unwise virgins, though I 'm not sure, just considering it....that extra oil is for sure the Holy Spirit....having enough of the Holy Spirit to finish what was begun (conceived?) in us. Also considering that Paul spoke of it being no longer I who sin, but sin living in me...so this has to be talking about someone under grace who's sins are not being imputed to them... a child of God.....so someone conceived of the Holy Spirit (what is conventionally thought of as being born again). I think I understand. In my efforts to get closer to God this year, I gave up all secular music. But in the process of writing Christian songs, the Holy Spirit encouraged me to go back and listen to certain select ones to clean from the measures that really spoke to me the most. I gave up all romance stories, movies, etc even Christian ones. But the Bible pictures Christ as a Bridegroom and the Church as a Bride. The Lord encouraged me to think about it. My conscience is still kind of weak. But is that what you mean? At first, maybe it's natural to cling to blanket rules and boundaries. But when you get used to being led by the Spirit, it's easier to recognize when you're given permission to do something or not. Yes.....and of course we never do wrong to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, the word of God and our consciences. Following Jesus, carrying our cross is even how we grow and buy more oil for our lamps, counting the cost. Just that it does seem to be a matter of growing in the Lord, going on to perfection and building on the foundation (conception) until the building is complete (born of the Spirit), is kind of how I'm seeing it. Crossing not only the Red Sea but the Jordan as well, to enter into His rest. The sabbath rest that remains for the people of God which we are labouring to enter. Growing from slaves/children tutored by the 'law' (not under it though, as believers) to friends and being a freewill bondslave, and bride (from which union sonship is birthed)....something along those lines.
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