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Post by John on Mar 11, 2020 7:18:27 GMT -5
Has anyone heard of Torah Observant Christians? They try to keep the Sabbath, the dietary laws and everything from the Torah, but they say they believe in Jesus or Yeshua. Not good, I've concluded. I have known Christians that do that, but I never heard that name given to them.
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Post by John on Mar 11, 2020 7:26:27 GMT -5
Never heard of this group . At first, I thought it might be cool because, oh they're trying to be obedient. They want to be Holy! But they are doing it in a way that rejects the blessing of Walking by the Spirit instead of by the letter. It is not a requirement from God. I see no issue with someone doing those things, but they are taking on unnecessary burdens. It might be interesting to do that for a year as a learning experience.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 7:56:55 GMT -5
I'm not trying to be an apostle or even a preacher or any such....just sharing and discussing this issue is all. But I think some clarification might be needed. Look at the title of this thread... Christians Living as Under the Law. I know where you live the biggest problem is licentiousness and sinful believers, so that is what you are always fighting. But what I have observed a lot of is the opposite....it is that most believers make an effort to live righteously but by their own strength, as if they were under Law....that is just the reality of how it is with most believers in most churches that I have seen, and I just have not come across many that are truly walking in the Spirit in all my 34 years of knowing the Lord. Most in churches and religious circles are still walking as children....under the tutelage of law and serving in the old way of the letter. That to me is another way of saying that they aren't growing to learn how to walk in the Spirit, their love isn't being matured/perfected. Paul was trying to instruct and help believers to understand that in Christ they needed to not walk after the letter of the law, but walk in the spirit and put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit. Recently the Lord helped me to understand what "perfect love casts out fear" means...I had wondered about it for a long time, wondering what fear was cast out...thinking it couldn't mean to cast out the fear/worship of the Lord. The Lord was gracious to finally help me understand that it is talking about the bondage to fear that comes from being under the Law...that is the fear that gets cast out when our love is perfected...which means matured. I posted on this recently but don't know how many agreed or whether any even saw it. Rom 8:14-15 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 1Jo 4:17-19 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect (mature) love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment (punishment). He that feareth is not made perfect (matured) in love. We love him, because he first loved us. Gal 4:1-3 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant (slave) though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: Gal 3:24-25 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a [fn]tutor. When we first come to faith most of us don't even initially know what sin is, until we are taught out of the word of God, His laws. We are infants and children in the beginning and need to be trained and disciplined, tutored, by the Law. But we need to grow beyond all that to learn the ways of the Spirit and how to walk after the Spirit and no longer serving out of our flesh and self effort. I don't really have any unction for "explaining" things in writing, and this is not my best time of day....hope this doesn't just make things more confusing, but I thought I should at least try to make it more clear what I'm talking about. Most believers are living as though under the Law....as children/slaves, that's just the reality (for those not in the licentious camp)....and I believe that's okay for a little while, but that people need to grow and mature past that stage. Where I have mentioned growing past being a child/slave in bondage to fear, to being a matured bride serving out of free will and love, not fear. Many don't though, although I believe and hope that more will as we get closer to the return of the Lord. I am going to have to go back through this thread, because a lot has been posted since I wrote the OP. The point I was making is that people are living as under the law because they have not learned to trust Jesus to give them the ability to cease from sin. Under the law, it was a constant struggle, but under the New Covenant, Jesus has set us free from the bondage of sin to serve him. We do not have to continue to battle in bondage to those chains. We can simply choose to get up and walk in the Spirit. I do not know that I disagree with anything you said.
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Galatians 5:16-18
Under the law, they did not have the Spirit living on the inside like Holy Ghost baptized believers do today. It was just about following the law as best they could in their own strength and ability. Today, we have the Spirit of God on the inside helping us. If we are led of the Spirit, we are not under the law. Then again, if we are not led by the Spirit, the law still shows us right from wrong. How do we know if we are led of the Spirit? By our lifestyle. Notice what it says in the following verses. Galatians 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Once you understand what Paul is really trying to convey in Romans, you can more easily understand what he is saying here in Galatians and in his other epistles about the Spirit-led life as opposed to walking after the flesh.
It seems to be a paradoxical thing....we both have it but also need to apprehend and grow in it....growing in the spirit and in understanding, increasing in holiness. I believe what Paul was talking about in Romans 7/8 is sanctification, but it doesn't nullify that it is also ours to have now. A few find it quite quickly, like Joshua and Caleb had faith to enter) but the reality is that it doesn't happen automatically or quickly for most of us but we are growing into it as we die to our flesh and overcome all the same kinds of faults and weakness of our flesh that the Israelites exhibited. Yesterday I was looking again at the types/shadows in the Old Testament, and please test these things.........but it seems that Crossing the Red Sea represents initial salvation, baptism and Holy Spirit...........and crossing the Jordan River into the land of promise/rest represents sanctification. Walking in the Spirit is resting from our own works, so that God is doing His work through us as empty vessels (having died to our flesh nature) containing only His Spirit. No longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. (Yes, there is that we already do have a measure of it by promise and by faith...but at the same time we also need to take more ground as we grow.) Here I'll highlight some scriptures from Joshua that stood out to me: Josh 3:3-4 And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it...... ......that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore. (meaning they had not been sanctified yet before this) Josh 3:5 And Joshua said unto the people, Sanctify yourselves: for tomorrow the Lord will do wonders among you. (speaks for itself, that this IS a picture of sanctification) Josh 3:8 And thou shalt command the priests that bear the ark of the covenant, saying, "When ye are come to the bring of the water of Jordan, ye shall stand still in Jordan. (mirroring for a second time the Red Sea crossing, when God said to Moses to 'stand still and see the salvation of the Lord'....His work, not ours) Josh 3:16 That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam that is beside Zaretan.... (God backing up and cutting off the floodwaters of the Jordan all the way back to Adam...cutting off the flow of our Adamic flesh nature going all the way back to Adam....and my how that makes me want to dance!!) Josh 5:2 At that time the Lord said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. (sanctification is a second thing that needs to happen after salvation) Josh 5:9 And the Lord said unto Joshua, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. (slavery, defeat, labouring in the flesh and law....but victory through sanctification and walking in the Spirit)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 8:08:27 GMT -5
Yes, I'm just talking about growing and reaching for that more excellent way.....which is based on love rather than duty and being slaves to fear....perfect love casting out that fear. How do you reconcile what you just said to Philippians 2:12?
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
You are saying we should not fear, and this verse is saying to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Yes, exactly.....I used to wonder the same thing......thinking that it couldn't mean to cast out the fear/worship of the Lord. And it doesn't, as the Lord thankfully helped me to understand. The whole thing that I'm pointing out, is that that verse is talking about casting out being a "slave again to fear" which comes from Law...Romans 8.
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Post by John on Mar 11, 2020 9:02:20 GMT -5
How do you reconcile what you just said to Philippians 2:12?
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
You are saying we should not fear, and this verse is saying to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Yes, exactly.....I used to wonder the same thing......thinking that it couldn't mean to cast out the fear/worship of the Lord. And it doesn't, as the Lord thankfully helped me to understand. The whole thing that I'm pointing out, is that that verse is talking about casting out being a "slave again to fear" which comes from Law...Romans 8. Okay, so we should not have fear that comes from the law and being a slave. What is the proper role of fear and trembling in our Christian walk. Fear and tremble at what?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 9:31:15 GMT -5
Yes, exactly.....I used to wonder the same thing......thinking that it couldn't mean to cast out the fear/worship of the Lord. And it doesn't, as the Lord thankfully helped me to understand. The whole thing that I'm pointing out, is that that verse is talking about casting out being a "slave again to fear" which comes from Law...Romans 8. Okay, so we should not have fear that comes from the law and being a slave. What is the proper role of fear and trembling in our Christian walk. Fear and tremble at what?
I don't know if you are arguing or not, or what you are arguing with. This is God's word, quoted word for word, not mine, so trust you are not arguing with it: 1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
I assume we accept this as being truth....so all that remains is to rightly divide it. And God (not me) also says in Romans 8 (it belongs in this discussion) that we are not to be slaves to fear: Rom 8:14-15 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
There are a lot of things in scripture that are "hard to be understood" so of course we need to ask and seek the Lord for understanding.
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Post by John on Mar 11, 2020 9:39:36 GMT -5
Okay, so we should not have fear that comes from the law and being a slave. What is the proper role of fear and trembling in our Christian walk. Fear and tremble at what?
I don't know if you are arguing or not, or what you are arguing with. This is God's word, quoted word for word, not mine, so trust you are not arguing with it: 1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
I assume we accept this as being truth....so all that remains is to rightly divide it. And God (not me) also says in Romans 8 (it belongs in this discussion) that we are not to be slaves to fear: Rom 8:14-15 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
There are a lot of things in scripture that are "hard to be understood" so of course we need to ask and seek the Lord for understanding. It was a question, also based on scripture word for word. What you posted does not nullify what I posted from the Bible. Is your answer you do not know?
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Post by John on Mar 11, 2020 10:56:48 GMT -5
Yes, exactly.....I used to wonder the same thing......thinking that it couldn't mean to cast out the fear/worship of the Lord. And it doesn't, as the Lord thankfully helped me to understand. The whole thing that I'm pointing out, is that that verse is talking about casting out being a "slave again to fear" which comes from Law...Romans 8. Okay, so we should not have fear that comes from the law and being a slave. What is the proper role of fear and trembling in our Christian walk. Fear and tremble at what?
watchful , my question to you was just that, a question. Here is that verse again. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12My question to you is, what is the proper role of fear and trembling in our Christian walk? Fear and trembling at what? If you really do not know watchful , or are not sure, that is fine. None of us know the answer to everything, but you did give scriptures to support your position that we should not be "slave again to fear which comes from the Law," so what are we to be in fear and trembling over? There is clearly a role for a Christian being in fear and trembling at something.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 11:03:57 GMT -5
I don't know if you are arguing or not, or what you are arguing with. This is God's word, quoted word for word, not mine, so trust you are not arguing with it: 1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
I assume we accept this as being truth....so all that remains is to rightly divide it. And God (not me) also says in Romans 8 (it belongs in this discussion) that we are not to be slaves to fear: Rom 8:14-15 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
There are a lot of things in scripture that are "hard to be understood" so of course we need to ask and seek the Lord for understanding. It was a question, also based on scripture word for word. What you posted does not nullify what I posted from the Bible. Is your answer you do not know?
Forums can be frustrating sometimes..... yes i agree with you and do not believe those scriptures nullify the fear of the Lord....I have said that two or three times at least, even BEFORE you challenged me on it...as i said it was my whole point. The only thing He has revealed on this so far is what kind of fear mature/perfect love DOES cast out, so amen to that, and praise the Lord....for me that is enough to digest for now and I won't take another step without the Lord leading. Do you agree with that so far?
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Post by frienduff on Mar 11, 2020 11:05:04 GMT -5
Heres another one . Be not high-minded BUT FEAR , for IS GOD spared not the natural branches , you better take heed lest he also spare not you .
It simply means we need to behold BOTH the goodness and SEVRITY OF GOD . aka , dont think GOD WONT DO something . Its the repent or else mindset we need to understand . That while GOD desires NONE of us to perish , IF WE dont HEED HIM , WE WILL . We have to understand , THAT GOD will not DENY HIMSELF or HIS RIGHTEOUS JUDMGNET . But that HE does desire us to be saved and HE does desire GOOD FOR US , but , DO HEED the warnings , every last one of them and DONT change the iMAGE of GOD . That is what it means to fear the LORD . TO DEPART FROM EVIL . And lambs need to be constantly exhorting one another . WE have to KEEP that pattern IDENTICAL to HOW JESUS INSTRUCTED and the APOSTELS INSTRUCTED . DO NOT CHANGE IT . a man who changes things and paints antoher iamge of GOD , truly has no fear of GOD . NOT THE RIGHT KIND offear . We should stand in awe of GOD and never change a word HE SAID . Folks who can do that , have zero fear of GOD .
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Post by John on Mar 11, 2020 11:14:34 GMT -5
It was a question, also based on scripture word for word. What you posted does not nullify what I posted from the Bible. Is your answer you do not know?
Forums can be frustrating sometimes..... yes i agree with you and do not believe those scriptures nullify the fear of the Lord....I have said that two or three times at least, even BEFORE you challenged me on it...as i said it was my whole point. The only thing He has revealed on this so far is what kind of fear mature/perfect love DOES cast out, so amen to that, and praise the Lord....for me that is enough to digest for now and I won't take another step without the Lord leading. Do you agree with that so far? I do not expect you to answer something you are not sure about. Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 12:16:24 GMT -5
Forums can be frustrating sometimes..... yes i agree with you and do not believe those scriptures nullify the fear of the Lord....I have said that two or three times at least, even BEFORE you challenged me on it...as i said it was my whole point. The only thing He has revealed on this so far is what kind of fear mature/perfect love DOES cast out, so amen to that, and praise the Lord....for me that is enough to digest for now and I won't take another step without the Lord leading. Do you agree with that so far? I do not expect you to answer something you are not sure about. Thanks.
Well all I can say is that I learned the fear of the Lord very early on, and have always been a huge defender of it and been in many battles about that over the years. Esther is a wonderful example of someone approaching the throne of grace boldly, but in reverent fear, and for that reason she didn't lose her life and also saved many others. Oh my! Dig deep in that brother. Prior to that she wouldn't dare go near without being summoned. Ponder it. Praise the Lord, I do thank Him for His light!
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Mar 11, 2020 12:23:55 GMT -5
watchful You said Walking in the Spirit is resting from our own works, so that God is doing His work through us as empty vessels (having died to our flesh nature) containing only His Spirit. No longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. Yes!!!
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Post by John on Mar 11, 2020 12:24:30 GMT -5
I do not expect you to answer something you are not sure about. Thanks.
Well all I can say is that I learned the fear of the Lord very early on, and have always been a huge defender of it and been in many battles about that over the years. Esther is a wonderful example of someone approaching the throne of grace boldly, but in reverent fear, and for that reason she didn't lose her life and also saved many others. Oh my! Dig deep in that brother. Prior to that she wouldn't dare go near without being summoned. Ponder it. Praise the Lord, I do thank Him for His light! It was an extreme situation where she would suffer certain death with her people if she did not go before the King, or risk death, but have a hope of being saved to go before him. She really had nothing to lose. It is like the starving lepers that went into the enemy camp to beg for food. What was the worst that could happen, death? It was certain death to do nothing. I know the story well. It did still require her to overcome fear of instant death.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 13:07:52 GMT -5
Well all I can say is that I learned the fear of the Lord very early on, and have always been a huge defender of it and been in many battles about that over the years. Esther is a wonderful example of someone approaching the throne of grace boldly, but in reverent fear, and for that reason she didn't lose her life and also saved many others. Oh my! Dig deep in that brother. Prior to that she wouldn't dare go near without being summoned. Ponder it. Praise the Lord, I do thank Him for His light! It was an extreme situation where she would suffer certain death with her people if she did not go before the King, or risk death, but have a hope of being saved to go before him. She really had nothing to lose. It is like the starving lepers that went into the enemy camp to beg for food. What was the worst that could happen, death? It was certain death to do nothing. I know the story well. It did still require her to overcome fear of instant death.
Yes, but it's more than just a recitation of facts and a history lesson.....these are similitudes/parables of spiritual things. Same with the Israelites and Joshua. I'm not sure why some have a problem with growing...it's a very scriptural concept. If Esther hadn't grown up into her role to be able to be an intercessor for her people, God would have rejected her and chosen others for the job. But the king giving her up to half of his kingdom comes to mind, oh my! Inheritance of the kingdom! Fear not little flock, it is the father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom....now why did he say that? Thank you Jesus, it just keeps getting better and better. Well, let's keep digging brother, praise the Lord.
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