Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2020 16:49:51 GMT -5
Are church closings an appropriate response to a pandemic?
Churches around the world have chosen to respond in various ways to the COVID-19 pandemic. Some are complying with the government mandates; many are live streaming their sermons; others are finding a different work-around, such as hosting drive-in services in a parking lot; others are meeting outside in undisclosed locations and changing the meeting place every week; still others are openly defiant and holding services as usual. Should we be shutting down the church, or keeping it open? Here are some things to consider:
1. The church is not a building; the church is the people of God, redeemed by Jesus Christ. So, in an important sense, no one can shut down the church. A building may sit empty, but the church can still be “filled to the measure of all the fullness of God” (Ephesians 3:19).
2. Followers of Christ should always seek to obey civil authority unless that authority requires that we do something sinful. We see this principle played out in the lives of Daniel (Daniel 6:10–28) and the apostles (Acts 5:25–42) and in the response of Joseph and Mary to go to Bethlehem to register for taxation (Luke 2:1–5). Paul states that we are to obey those who rule over us, for they were placed there by God Himself for our good (Romans 13:1–7; cf. 1 Peter 2:13). So, it’s always wise to obey governmental authority unless compelled by Scripture not to obey.
Those churches who defy the mandates of civil authorities, claiming that “we must obey God rather than human beings!” (Acts 5:29), may be overlooking the fact that the orders are not designed to stop us from worshiping and ministering. In the early days of the church, when Peter and John defied the Sanhedrin, at issue was a direct order to stop preaching in the name of Jesus Christ (verse 28). Similar restraints are in place in many nations around the world where the church is persecuted. But neither parallels the current situation involving COVID-19; the stated motivation of federal, state, and local governments for the personal distancing rules is the protection of the general public, including our own congregations. No one is trying to keep us from preaching the gospel.
3. Churches have their good testimony in their communities to consider. We do not want to be seen as rebellious and reckless. Rather, we want to follow the biblical command to “be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone” (Romans 12:17–18). The church’s response to the COVID-19 crisis should be to show the love of Christ, finding ways to minister to our hurting, fearful neighbors.
4. There’s wisdom in staying out of harm’s way. For instance, we wouldn’t allow our children to be in a cage with a wild animal, even if we have “faith” that God will protect them. It’s not an issue of having faith vs. lacking faith—it’s an issue of wisdom vs. foolishness. We should always choose the path of wisdom.
5. Given that the COVID-19 virus is very contagious and potentially deadly, the church is right to take steps to ensure the physical well-being of God’s family. Temporary social distancing and the cancellation of larger public gatherings (such as church meetings) may be necessary for the protection of people. Pastors are right to be lovingly concerned for their congregations. Churches sometimes close their doors due to harsh weather conditions: ice storms or snowstorms can make travel dangerous. Churches who call off services because of weather emergencies are not disobeying God; they are showing appropriate concern for people’s safety.
6. The situation churches face due to the COVID-19 outbreak is unique and temporary. Once the threat has passed, we will be free to return to our meetings and ministries as before. Pastors should not feel they are disobeying God by obeying the governing authorities during these unique times.
The days of COVID-19 are difficult, to be sure. Yet churches are still finding ways to minister: through the internet, email, texting, and good, old-fashioned letters and phone calls, pastors are staying up with God’s people in the churches they serve. The uncertainty and hardship surrounding the pandemic will not last indefinitely. This time will conclude, and things will get back to relative normalcy. In the meantime, we are patient. We stay faithful. We obey the law to the degree that we are able.
We may be isolated, quarantined, or forced into a temporary separation, “but God’s word is not chained” (2 Timothy 2:9).
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Post by John on Apr 21, 2020 18:41:16 GMT -5
I am not convinced that this situation is as unique as the governments of the world are telling us. When you look at the number of deaths from Covid 19, it is less than the number of deaths we have from other viruses in the past, including severe flu epidemics, and we did not go to these kind of measures. If it was up to me, we would not close anything, and we would go on as normal, taking the same kind of reasonable precautions we do to prevent getting the flu.
Having said that, I am not the one making the decisions. The governments are placing these restrictions on us. We are supposed to obey the authorities. At the same time, in America, we have this thing called the Constitution, and that guarantees us the right to practice our religion. The government officials, including the President and Congress cannot pass laws or make proclamations that overrule the Constitution. The Constitution is our supreme law, so I feel like the churches are within their legal rights to assemble, even if they violate local laws, and if this was challenged to the Supreme Court, I believe they would be vindicated. Perhaps it is time for court challenges? See where we stand.
Now we come to another issue, and that is appearance. What happens if we violate these orders? Even though I believe we are within our rights based on the Constitution to meet anyway, if we do, when people are infected, they will blame the church. Is that in our best interest? For that reason, when this first started, I took the position that closing for a time and meeting online was the wisest thing to do. Even though that would have been my choice starting out, we are commanded in scripture not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, especially as we see the day approaching, and some believe that must be done in person. I respect their right to assemble, and I do believe that is a case of obeying God rather than men. I defend their meeting as normal if they feel that way. I am also getting to the place where I feel this has gotten out of hand, and it is getting to the place where we need to get back to normal, regardless of the risk. To me, if they are continuing to tell churches they cannot meet much longer, I would fully support them if they refused to obey and said enough is enough. In my opinion, the churches should be allowed to return to normal by the first Sunday in May, and any churches that wish to do that have my fully support and blessing.
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Post by John on Apr 21, 2020 18:59:14 GMT -5
I have a chance to travel around, since I drive a tractor-trailer, and we are considered essential workers. I have seen churches doing everything from closing the doors, having services online, doing outdoor drive-inn meetings, having open air services with lawn chairs, and even defying the orders and having church like normal. I respect the decision of every one of them. They need to be led of God in what they feel is right.
I have been watching a church service online on Sunday mornings, and they are having services with what they call a "Quarantine Choir." They stay within the legal number allowed in church, and have a small choir singing and then a sermon, and this is online. Last Sunday, I saw the praise and worship with a packed house and the normal choir, and thought they had started back to normal. I was not upset, but rejoicing that they said enough is enough and opened the church doors again. It turned out it was a tape of a worship service from the past, and a current sermon. That was fine, but personally, I want to see the churches open again, and people getting on with their normal lives.
Because I work in an essential service, I was not effected like others. I have been working right on through, and have been doing the regular shopping and things like that. I see the nonsense with all the people wearing masks, scared to talk to each other, placing things on the floor to tell us where 6 feet is, and a host of other things too numerous to mention, but compared to many, I have not been effected that much, but I despise what they are doing to our people. I feel like it is a bunch of fear mongering, and destruction to people's livelihoods. When the dust settles, I have no idea how many jobs will be lost for good, and it makes me sick to see it. I feel like it is completely unjustified.
All that being said, when it comes to the churches, I respect each and every one in how they choose to handle things. If they choose to follow every rule to the letter, I respect that. If they choose to ignore it completely, I respect that. I would not feel bad about attending a church service today. I honestly do not think the government in this country has the Constitutional authority to tell any church they cannot meet, even under these circumstances. The only way to know for sure is to test it in court, and perhaps that will happen with one of the Pastors that has been arrested and charged. I wish them all God's speed in the courts, because this will have wide reaching effects down the road. In other nations, with different laws, and no such protections, they have to do things as they feel is right in their country.
In saying all of this, I mean no disrespect to the OP. I understand fully why someone would feel that way. I am just sharing how I feel about the whole thing. From the start, I have opposed the way this is being handled. I have been respectful of others, and have practiced "social distancing," but only for the sake of others feelings, not because I believe in what is taking place. I had a driver practically get in my face needing someone to talk to about a difficult day he was having. That was about 3 weeks ago, and I let him get it all out. I did not treat him like a leper and tell him to get back 6 feet or put on a mask. I treated him like I normally would have, like a human being. Beside that instance, I have been going with the flow, and treating everyone as distant as they seem to want to treat me. I barely speak to anyone, and keep to myself. I do that for them.
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Post by frienduff on Apr 21, 2020 19:49:18 GMT -5
I have a chance to travel around, since I drive a tractor-trailer, and we are considered essential workers. I have seen churches doing everything from closing the doors, having services online, doing outdoor drive-inn meetings, having open air services with lawn chairs, and even defying the orders and having church like normal. I respect the decision of every one of them. They need to be led of God in what they feel is right.
I have been watching a church service online on Sunday mornings, and they are having services with what they call a "Quarantine Choir." They stay within the legal number allowed in church, and have a small choir singing and then a sermon, and this is online. Last Sunday, I saw the praise and worship with a packed house and the normal choir, and thought they had started back to normal. I was not upset, but rejoicing that they said enough is enough and opened the church doors again. It turned out it was a tape of a worship service from the past, and a current sermon. That was fine, but personally, I want to see the churches open again, and people getting on with their normal lives.
Because I work in an essential service, I was not effected like others. I have been working right on through, and have been doing the regular shopping and things like that. I see the nonsense with all the people wearing masks, scared to talk to each other, placing things on the floor to tell us where 6 feet is, and a host of other things too numerous to mention, but compared to many, I have not been effected that much, but I despise what they are doing to our people. I feel like it is a bunch of fear mongering, and destruction to people's livelihoods. When the dust settles, I have no idea how many jobs will be lost for good, and it makes me sick to see it. I feel like it is completely unjustified.
All that being said, when it comes to the churches, I respect each and every one in how they choose to handle things. If they choose to follow every rule to the letter, I respect that. If they choose to ignore it completely, I respect that. I would not feel bad about attending a church service today. I honestly do not think the government in this country has the Constitutional authority to tell any church they cannot meet, even under these circumstances. The only way to know for sure is to test it in court, and perhaps that will happen with one of the Pastors that has been arrested and charged. I wish them all God's speed in the courts, because this will have wide reaching effects down the road. In other nations, with different laws, and no such protections, they have to do things as they feel is right in their country.
In saying all of this, I mean no disrespect to the OP. I understand fully why someone would feel that way. I am just sharing how I feel about the whole thing. From the start, I have opposed the way this is being handled. I have been respectful of others, and have practiced "social distancing," but only for the sake of others feelings, not because I believe in what is taking place. I had a driver practically get in my face needing someone to talk to about a difficult day he was having. That was about 3 weeks ago, and I let him get it all out. I did not treat him like a leper and tell him to get back 6 feet or put on a mask. I treated him like I normally would have, like a human being. Beside that instance, I have been going with the flow, and treating everyone as distant as they seem to want to treat me. I barely speak to anyone, and keep to myself. I do that for them.
Some folks are scared . but i am talking to everyone i see in the stores . HANDS Up and praising the KING . THE LORD is with the lambs .
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Post by John on Apr 21, 2020 19:52:14 GMT -5
I have a chance to travel around, since I drive a tractor-trailer, and we are considered essential workers. I have seen churches doing everything from closing the doors, having services online, doing outdoor drive-inn meetings, having open air services with lawn chairs, and even defying the orders and having church like normal. I respect the decision of every one of them. They need to be led of God in what they feel is right.
I have been watching a church service online on Sunday mornings, and they are having services with what they call a "Quarantine Choir." They stay within the legal number allowed in church, and have a small choir singing and then a sermon, and this is online. Last Sunday, I saw the praise and worship with a packed house and the normal choir, and thought they had started back to normal. I was not upset, but rejoicing that they said enough is enough and opened the church doors again. It turned out it was a tape of a worship service from the past, and a current sermon. That was fine, but personally, I want to see the churches open again, and people getting on with their normal lives.
Because I work in an essential service, I was not effected like others. I have been working right on through, and have been doing the regular shopping and things like that. I see the nonsense with all the people wearing masks, scared to talk to each other, placing things on the floor to tell us where 6 feet is, and a host of other things too numerous to mention, but compared to many, I have not been effected that much, but I despise what they are doing to our people. I feel like it is a bunch of fear mongering, and destruction to people's livelihoods. When the dust settles, I have no idea how many jobs will be lost for good, and it makes me sick to see it. I feel like it is completely unjustified.
All that being said, when it comes to the churches, I respect each and every one in how they choose to handle things. If they choose to follow every rule to the letter, I respect that. If they choose to ignore it completely, I respect that. I would not feel bad about attending a church service today. I honestly do not think the government in this country has the Constitutional authority to tell any church they cannot meet, even under these circumstances. The only way to know for sure is to test it in court, and perhaps that will happen with one of the Pastors that has been arrested and charged. I wish them all God's speed in the courts, because this will have wide reaching effects down the road. In other nations, with different laws, and no such protections, they have to do things as they feel is right in their country.
In saying all of this, I mean no disrespect to the OP. I understand fully why someone would feel that way. I am just sharing how I feel about the whole thing. From the start, I have opposed the way this is being handled. I have been respectful of others, and have practiced "social distancing," but only for the sake of others feelings, not because I believe in what is taking place. I had a driver practically get in my face needing someone to talk to about a difficult day he was having. That was about 3 weeks ago, and I let him get it all out. I did not treat him like a leper and tell him to get back 6 feet or put on a mask. I treated him like I normally would have, like a human being. Beside that instance, I have been going with the flow, and treating everyone as distant as they seem to want to treat me. I barely speak to anyone, and keep to myself. I do that for them.
Some folks are scared . but i am talking to everyone i see in the stores . HANDS Up and praising the KING . THE LORD is with the lambs . Do you know that in some places, city governments are using drones to spy on people to see if they are congregating rather than using social distancing? If someone comes up to me and wants to talk, even shake hands, I will not push them away or rebuke them, but if I see people are stand offish out of fear, I am respectful of them. I am attempting to do right by everyone as best I can. One thing I am not doing is walking around wearing a mask.
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Post by frienduff on Apr 21, 2020 20:22:09 GMT -5
Some folks are scared . but i am talking to everyone i see in the stores . HANDS Up and praising the KING . THE LORD is with the lambs . Do you know that in some places, city governments are using drones to spy on people to see if they are congregating rather than using social distancing? If someone comes up to me and wants to talk, even shake hands, I will not push them away or rebuke them, but if I see people are stand offish out of fear, I am respectful of them. I am attempting to do right by everyone as best I can. One thing I am not doing is walking around wearing a mask.
That is true butero . and yet , yet , they do nothing about the homeless that are gathered and sleeping on the sub ways . THEY PICKING and CHOOSING . i see an ANGENDA behind it all . And that is NO CONSPIRACY . they using this my friend .
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Post by John on Apr 21, 2020 20:27:32 GMT -5
Do you know that in some places, city governments are using drones to spy on people to see if they are congregating rather than using social distancing? If someone comes up to me and wants to talk, even shake hands, I will not push them away or rebuke them, but if I see people are stand offish out of fear, I am respectful of them. I am attempting to do right by everyone as best I can. One thing I am not doing is walking around wearing a mask.
That is true butero . and yet , yet , they do nothing about the homeless that are gathered and sleeping on the sub ways . THEY PICKING and CHOOSING . i see an ANGENDA behind it all . And that is NO CONSPIRACY . they using this my friend . I never thought about that side of the drone issue. That is a good point.
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Post by frienduff on Apr 21, 2020 20:29:32 GMT -5
I got only TWO WORDS and i will leave us with them as i head out for the night .
Ponder on these next two words . BATTLE TIME .
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Post by frienduff on Apr 21, 2020 20:30:05 GMT -5
TIME for the saints to proclaim only more and more the good news and do many exploits .
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Apr 21, 2020 23:10:29 GMT -5
Are church closings an appropriate response to a pandemic?...
... not when mosques are still open.
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Apr 22, 2020 0:35:43 GMT -5
TIME for the saints to proclaim only more and more the good news and do many exploits . 19 = exploits of faith.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Apr 22, 2020 10:21:30 GMT -5
I see the nonsense with all the people wearing masks, scared to talk to each other, placing things on the floor to tell us where 6 feet is, and a host of other things too numerous to mention, but compared to many, I have not been effected that much, but I despise what they are doing to our people. I feel like it is a bunch of fear mongering, and destruction to people's livelihoods.
This is to show how humanity as whole is powerless without God.
But they still refuse to acknowledge that and tries to show God that they do not need Him and find a solution in science.
What they do not know is:
The God they now despise and ignore is the same God that will give them knowledge to find a solution through science.
“...He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.” - Matthew 5:45
“For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.” - Romans 11:36
Knowledge (science) is becoming an idol to many people in this world.
“Thus says the Lord:
“Cursed is the man who trusts in man
And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the Lord.” - Jeremiah 17:5But they do not know that in the eyes of God they are just like children who have just learned something new and thinks they have learned everything until they try something and they will discover it is not possible with what they have learned.
And many refuse to accept that they cannot do all things through science, and they become proud and refuse to ask help from God.
Just like a child cannot learn new things without a book, teacher, father, mother, whatever... We also cannot learn new things without God.
“...although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God,
nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible
God into an image made like corruptible man...” - Romans 1:21-23
It doesn't matter your effort, it is always God who makes you learn. “I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.” - 1 Corinthians 3:6
“For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.” - Romans 11:36...I did not treat him like a leper and tell him to get back 6 feet or put on a mask. I treated him like I normally would have, like a human being...
To me, this is a good testimony. But some may label you as offender and accuse you of tempting God.
“Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.” - Matthew 5:11
Obviously, we need to be careful.
“Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God.
Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.” - Romans 14:22
But I believe Christians should not judge each other regarding this.
“But why do you judge your brother?
Or why do you show contempt for your brother?...” - Romans 14:10
I have lost the count of how many times I heard things like: You are tempting God, you're not wise, and things like that.
Of course, I believe we must seek to agree for the sake of peace.
“Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, leading to edification.” - Romans 15:2
It is not about having or not having faith. And this I say to all.
If you have faith keep it to yourself, specially if you know your brother/sister will be offended unnecessarily.
“Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil...” - Romans 14:16
I mean, it is not a faith competition... Let us support one another, it is what really matters.
“Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, leading to edification.” - Romans 15:2
“For even Christ did not please Himself...” - Romans 15:3
Blessings!
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Apr 22, 2020 12:08:49 GMT -5
I just know
There's no such thing as life without risk.
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Post by frienduff on Apr 22, 2020 12:59:45 GMT -5
I just know There's no such thing as life without risk. SOUND IT OUT SISTER . While i condemn none who have fear , I HEAR NOT A WORD from those who accuse me and say false things because i have no fear . I pray for those who have fear , but their words against my faith , I HEED NOT . Look the simple solution is this . IF ANYONE has fear , INSTEAD of attacking those who DONT and falsey accusing us of tempting GOD . WHY NOT JUST PRAY like paul did . THAT UTTERNACE may be given and that we may walk and talk AS WE OUGHT TOO . cause lets face it . Some fear and yet have a weak faith , and JUST NEED to be encouraged . SOME fear , or most , and have no faith in GOD , are lost and trust in men . I see some who have zero fear , and yet KNOW NOT GOD and are totally lost . but one tiny group . THEY have zero fear , they remind others NOT to fear , they tempt not GOD , they just do as they led . GET OUT , fearing not the virus and thus they heed not the false solutoins of men . THEY know an agenda is behind this , they know the virus is real , OH BUT THEY KNOW an agenda is being pushed . BUT MAN , MEN and NONE can lead them astray . CAUSE THEY FOLLOW THE LAMB . And no virus is gonna have them , KEEP THE LIGHT HID FROM THE WORLD .
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Post by frienduff on Apr 22, 2020 13:26:36 GMT -5
The time is coming when no man can work . BUT NOT YET IT AINT . GET THE GOSPLE OUT to all , AS LONG as breath be in those lungs . FOR the time for us to work , aka , preach the REAL JESUS and ALL , i mean ALL , OF HIS SAYINGS , IS NOW MORE THAN EVER IN DIRE NEED . NOW ARMOUR UP . BATTLE TIME .
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