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Post by John on May 11, 2020 19:55:31 GMT -5
I have been involved in my fair share of OSAS debates over the years. They become filled with emotions, scare tactics, claims that hermeneutics don't support this or that view, catch phrases repeated at nauseum, accusations against others for being prideful or not believing God. It goes on and on. What I am not seeing is real substance and simply discussing scripture. It is not a valid argument to claim my view must be wrong because it contradicts a scripture you hold to. It may just as easily be said that your scripture must not mean what you say because it contradicts my scripture.
Here is what I am willing to do. The official position of Narrow Way Forums is that OSAS is a false doctrine. Anyone promoting it is in opposition to our Statement of Faith, and their posts may be removed. That goes for all areas including the Visitor's Forum. Here is what I am willing to try. Anyone can post in this section, including visitors. If you can have a civil discussion that avoids the tactics I mentioned, I will discuss this with you. Keep in mind that the KJV Bible is what we go by, not Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. You may use other translations, but if it contradicts the KJV Bible, we revert back to that as the final authority. Endorsements of preachers who support one view or the other are not allowed and will be removed, as will video links or links to other web-sites.
One other thing. Continually repeating the same scriptures over and over wont be allowed. If you want to discuss a scripture, do it and move on. Make it count, but leave out emotional appeals or personal attacks. Posts will be edited or removed at our discretion if these guidelines aren't followed. If your view has substance, you should welcome this opportunity.
This is 05/11/20. I am going to once again make this offer. If anyone wants to take me up on it, here is what I suggest they do. Post a passage of scripture that you think proves unconditional eternal security, and explain what you think it means. Then those who do not agree will be free to explain what it means to them, and give a passage of scripture that proves unconditional eternal security is untrue. Afterward, those who believe in unconditional security may explain what it means to them, and have what I hope can be a fruitful discussion. Posts that violate the conditions laid out will be edited or removed. Can any of our OSAS believers do this under these conditions?
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Post by John on May 11, 2020 20:49:55 GMT -5
To our guests who have come here to promote unconditional eternal security, here is your chance. This thread is open for that discussion, so long as the ground rules are followed.
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Post by Seeker of Truth on May 12, 2020 7:40:17 GMT -5
To our guests who have come here to promote unconditional eternal security, here is your chance. This thread is open for that discussion, so long as the ground rules are followed.
Pardon me, but I have a question. When some call salvation unconditional, do they mean in the most literal way? Do they mean that if I believe in Jesus, I can commit adultery, murder innocent people, even renounce my faith and serve the devil and still go to heaven? I've never heard anyone teach that before! If that's in the Bible, I have to see it to believe it.
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on May 12, 2020 8:08:00 GMT -5
To our guests who have come here to promote unconditional eternal security, here is your chance. This thread is open for that discussion, so long as the ground rules are followed.
Pardon me, but I have a question. When some call salvation unconditional, do they mean in the most literal way? Do they mean that if I believe in Jesus, I can commit adultery, murder innocent people, even renounce my faith and serve the devil and still go to heaven? I've never heard anyone teach that before! If that's in the Bible, I have to see it to believe it. That is what they are teaching. Welcome Seeker of Truth.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2020 12:23:56 GMT -5
This "once saved, always saved" doctrine is widespread in what's called Christianity today. I've yet to encounter an argument in favor of this teaching based upon the entirety of the scriptures or what some might refer to as the "balance" of God's word. I look forward to reading any argument which adheres to the rules you set forth, John.
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Post by John on May 12, 2020 12:52:14 GMT -5
This "once saved, always saved" doctrine is widespread in what's called Christianity today. I've yet to encounter an argument in favor of this teaching based upon the entirety of the scriptures or what some might refer to as the "balance" of God's word. I look forward to reading any argument which adheres to the rules you set forth, John. I have tried this several times, with only a couple of feeble attempts to do it. Their doctrine is not Bible based.
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on May 12, 2020 18:49:24 GMT -5
osas is hypergrace. not biblical grace. osas purports that you can get saved and then no matter what or how much sin you do you are still saved. this is disrespect to the King. this is going back in time, climbing up on the cross and jumping up and down on Jesus' shoulders while HeIs nailed to the cross. its damnable heresy.
decades ago they taught... osas, BUT you can fall from grace. today that message does not tickle the ear enough to get the masses throwing their money in the collection plate.
today the heretics hate the word BUT. they cant stand it so much they ignore it in scripture.
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Post by John on Jun 7, 2020 16:11:16 GMT -5
This topic continues to come up, but none want to try to show OSAS is true based on the Bible alone, with the ground rules I set forth. They just claim it is true. Once again, the challenge stands. If there is anyone, member or guest, that wants to try to prove unconditional security of the believer within my ground rules, here is your opportunity.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 7, 2020 17:30:12 GMT -5
This topic continues to come up, but none want to try to show OSAS is true based on the Bible alone, with the ground rules I set forth. They just claim it is true. Once again, the challenge stands. If there is anyone, member or guest, that wants to try to prove unconditional security of the believer within my ground rules, here is your opportunity. becometh not as the BB , his heart has become fixated on his doctrine . We need not even entertain it . all it does is gender strife upon strife , strife upon strife . Let us instead BUILD THIS PLACE UP . Be encouraged my friend . I got zero desire to debate this . I will only debate it , IF they come in with it . but never invite it , they are many and we would be spending our waking hours in this same old debate . But here is an encouraging word . YOU KNOW WHY they DONT JOHN . Because by the BIBLE , THEY cant prove it , they have to use a lot of emotions and some cherry picked verses which STILL NEVER PROVES OSAS . so why even open it up for debate . We got a house to defend . there will be plenty of evil to contend with now and in the days ahead . They will come , they always do . When any comes bringing twisted false doctrine , THEN we will flood up with ALL BIBLE REMINDERS . AND PUMP IT SO FULLL , folks better KNOW HOW TO SWIM is all i can say .
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Post by John on Jun 7, 2020 20:12:02 GMT -5
I have told this before, but for those who did not see it, I want to repeat it. I spent more than a dozen years debating with people that promoted OSAS at WCF. It was not until after I was forced out of there that I went back and closely examined the debates in closed or abandoned threads. They generally have 12 to 20 threads minimum open on that single subject under different titles. They will often times have 20, 30, or 40 or more pages of back and forth between those who believe in OSAS and those who reject OSAS. It was not until after I went back and examined the threads after leaving that I saw how little scripture the OSAS crowd uses. They argue so fiercely, and the debates go on so long and they are so heated, you assume that both sides are equally valid. That is, until you carefully examine the arguments being used.
Those who reject OSAS use a lot of scripture. They are happy to stick with the Bible. Those who support OSAS claim they use a lot of scripture, but they really do not. They have perhaps 6 or 8 verses they repeat over and over again, and they claim they prove OSAS. The rest of their arguments are not Bible based at all. They are using human logic and reasoning. Let me give you some examples. These are typical arguments for OSAS.
"It is like a Father and his children. Even if the children do wrong, he is always their Father."
There are problems with this. First of all, before we were saved, we were children of the devil, yet when we got saved, we became children of God, which shows that spiritually, you can change Fathers. Also, even in the natural, children can go to court and become divorced from their parents and parents can disown their children. It does happen.
"You cannot become un-adopted."
Yes you can. It has happened in the natural. There were children adopted from Russia that were returned because their behavior was so bad. It led to a type of international incident where they were threatening to end foreign adoption to the United States.
"You cannot become un-born."
In the natural, you cannot be born again. This is a spiritual birth, not something done in the natural, so nobody can say that it is impossible to become un-born. If you can be born a second time, why would that be impossible?
They love to go on using arguments where they talk about things like the "essence of God" or the "nature of God." Again, not scriptural arguments. When these things are rejected, they love to turn to accusations.
"You are full of pride, and thinking you can save yourself." "You are putting Christ back on the cross all over again." "You are promoting a work's based salvation." "You have fallen from grace." "You are a legalist."
Again, not scriptural arguments. When that does not work, the next argument is that OSAS is the only doctrine that works. We all sin all the time. We cannot live right, so to them, that equates to unconditional eternal security. Clearly it does not, but they claim that it does. Here is how this argument goes.
"Do you ever sin?" "Do you ever have a sinful thought?" "Do you ever drive one mile over the speed limit?" "If you ever do anything wrong, then it proves OSAS is true, because without believing in that, you could not be saved."
Of course, all of that is nonsense, and none of those arguments prove unconditional eternal security is a Biblical doctrine, but that is something they like to use. When that fails, they turn to man-made catch phrases they brainwash people with. They are not based on scripture. They are completely made up, but people often times do not realize that.
"You cannot out sin God's grace." "Faith plus nothing." Did you know that neither of those quotes are found in the Bible? It does not matter. They repeat them over and over and hope they stick. It is a brainwashing technique. When this fails, they will paraphrase verses to say things they do not. Recently, it was pointed out to me that someone added things to verses to make them appear to prove OSAS. Those who did not read the Bible get fooled by such things.
They make up things that are completely false, like claiming there are 400 verses proving OSAS and 200 verses out of context that go against it. In reality, the promoters of OSAS have perhaps 6 to 8 recycled verses they use out of context to promote their doctrine. I have even seen one of them do a post where he said that if OSAS is not true, God lied about 5 or 6 things, and gave scripture references. The problem is, the scriptures did not say what the person claimed, but he knew most would never read them.
If you doubt me, do the research. Go back and read those long threads. Look at the arguments. Also, look how many scriptures people like Cletus used to show OSAS is false that were completely ignored. OSAS is a man-made doctrine, and is not Biblical. Nobody would come to that belief just reading through the New Testament without someone leading them to believe it. Am I wrong about what I am saying? Here is your chance to prove me wrong.
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Cletus
Senior Member
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Post by Cletus on Jun 7, 2020 22:59:51 GMT -5
if osas is true why did this happen:
1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
and this:
Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, Act 5:2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. Act 5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. Act 5:7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. Act 5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Act 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Act 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. Act 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 8, 2020 7:52:32 GMT -5
if osas is true why did this happen: 1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. and this: Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, Act 5:2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. Act 5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. Act 5:7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. Act 5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Act 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Act 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. Act 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. Dig even deeper cletus . for they will say they were never born again to begin with . Dig into romans first . paul was speaking of the tree that unbelieving jews were cast out of . Now , no tree means ONE has zero hope . they are NOT in Christ . so paul was explaining why many of the jews had been cast out of their own tree . HE then goes on to remind the BELEIVERS who had come to Christ . He says to behold both the Goodness and the severity of GOD , severity towards those who fell , but goodness towards THEE , BELIEVERS , IF, here comes the IF word IF you CONTINUE in HIS GOODNESS otherwise ye will be CAST OUT . Now lets return to what JESUS had told his own . THEN shall many betray many , they will deliver you up before kings and etc you will be killed , persecuted , BUT HE WHO ENDURES TO THE .............................END , the SAME SHALL BE SAVED . TO THE END . Now lets look at what paul writes to timothy , Having damnation because they have cast OFF their first faith . That goes in line with what GOD tells the same church in revelation . And then HE says REPENT or else . Then we got what paul writes to the hebrews . FOR we are made PARTAKERS of CHRIST , if we hold our CONFIDENCE as we had at the beginning , FIRM TO THE ...................END . Then he says this . Believers , BE LOOKING diligently , lest any man FAIL of the grace of GOD Then the dire warnings in hebrews two more times . Then we have jude warning the church and reminding them WHAT happens when one keeps not their FIRST estate . Then we have peter warning . HE says , SEEING YOU ALREADY KNOW THESE THINGS , you too better take heed lest YOU be led away with the error of the wicked and Fall from your own Steadfastness . Then HE also reminds very clearly of what happens when one is washed clean yet returns to the pit and is overcome . We have all seven messages to all seven churches and it all reminds to remain Faithful to the end , to endure to the end , and if error is spotted REPENT or else . One of them even says , OR I WILL come and fight against them with the SWORD of my mouth . Then we have paul again reminding this as well . And like james paul knew . IF any provides not , A DOING ACTION , A DOER , for his own , SPECIALLY for those of his own household , HE has denied .....what , THE FAITH and is worse than an infidel . PAUL KNEW we had to be hearers and DOERS . As he tells this to titus as well . OH they profess to KNOW GOD , but in works they DENY HIM , being abominable unto every good work . Cletus there are so many more verses . See JESUS had told the apostels IF any man be a hearer and not a doer , THEY got NO FOUNDATION , their house was built on sand . So why is this called legalism again . EXACTLY . we got massive problems . MANY have been lulled to sleep under a large comfortable security blanket , ONLY that blanket IS NOT SECURE and it cannot save them . the blanket of the acroynm will not save . ONLY JESUS CAN , and thus let all come to HIM and continue in HIM , continue to HEED HE who speaks from heaven . Fight the fight , HE is surely with the lambs and HE does give us both the desire and ability to do good . But folks we BETTER HEED HIS SPIRIT , and not the flesh . OBEY HIM , OBEY THE SPIRIT OBEY HE WHO SPEAKS FROM HEAVEN for surely HE is able to keep us from falling , but heed HIM not and YE WILL .
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Post by frienduff on Jun 8, 2020 7:56:29 GMT -5
Folks need to learn that JESUS IS OUR ONLY ETERNAL SECURITY . Thus LEARN YE OF HIM and ALL HE DID SAY , HEEDING THE SPIRIT and LEARN YE what all the apostels wrote as well . For if we sit under men , heeding those who teach the precepts of men as the word of God , WE IN SERIOUS TROUBLE . I leave us with what GOD told the jews in ISSIAH . CEASE YE FROM MAN whose breath is in his nostrils , for wherein is he to be accounted of . AND SEEK YE THE LIVING GOD and LEARN THOSE BIBLES FOR YOURSELVES .
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Jun 8, 2020 11:19:00 GMT -5
I have told this before, but for those who did not see it, I want to repeat it. I spent more than a dozen years debating with people that promoted OSAS at WCF. It was not until after I was forced out of there that I went back and closely examined the debates in closed or abandoned threads. They generally have 12 to 20 threads minimum open on that single subject under different titles. They will often times have 20, 30, or 40 or more pages of back and forth between those who believe in OSAS and those who reject OSAS. It was not until after I went back and examined the threads after leaving that I saw how little scripture the OSAS crowd uses. They argue so fiercely, and the debates go on so long and they are so heated, you assume that both sides are equally valid. That is, until you carefully examine the arguments being used.
Those who reject OSAS use a lot of scripture. They are happy to stick with the Bible. Those who support OSAS claim they use a lot of scripture, but they really do not. They have perhaps 6 or 8 verses they repeat over and over again, and they claim they prove OSAS. The rest of their arguments are not Bible based at all. They are using human logic and reasoning. Let me give you some examples. These are typical arguments for OSAS.
"It is like a Father and his children. Even if the children do wrong, he is always their Father."
There are problems with this. First of all, before we were saved, we were children of the devil, yet when we got saved, we became children of God, which shows that spiritually, you can change Fathers. Also, even in the natural, children can go to court and become divorced from their parents and parents can disown their children. It does happen.
"You cannot become un-adopted."
Yes you can. It has happened in the natural. There were children adopted from Russia that were returned because their behavior was so bad. It led to a type of international incident where they were threatening to end foreign adoption to the United States.
"You cannot become un-born."
In the natural, you cannot be born again. This is a spiritual birth, not something done in the natural, so nobody can say that it is impossible to become un-born. If you can be born a second time, why would that be impossible?
They love to go on using arguments where they talk about things like the "essence of God" or the "nature of God." Again, not scriptural arguments. When these things are rejected, they love to turn to accusations.
"You are full of pride, and thinking you can save yourself." "You are putting Christ back on the cross all over again." "You are promoting a work's based salvation." "You have fallen from grace." "You are a legalist."
Again, not scriptural arguments. When that does not work, the next argument is that OSAS is the only doctrine that works. We all sin all the time. We cannot live right, so to them, that equates to unconditional eternal security. Clearly it does not, but they claim that it does. Here is how this argument goes.
"Do you ever sin?" "Do you ever have a sinful thought?" "Do you ever drive one mile over the speed limit?" "If you ever do anything wrong, then it proves OSAS is true, because without believing in that, you could not be saved."
Of course, all of that is nonsense, and none of those arguments prove unconditional eternal security is a Biblical doctrine, but that is something they like to use. When that fails, they turn to man-made catch phrases they brainwash people with. They are not based on scripture. They are completely made up, but people often times do not realize that.
"You cannot out sin God's grace." "Faith plus nothing." Did you know that neither of those quotes are found in the Bible? It does not matter. They repeat them over and over and hope they stick. It is a brainwashing technique. When this fails, they will paraphrase verses to say things they do not. Recently, it was pointed out to me that someone added things to verses to make them appear to prove OSAS. Those who did not read the Bible get fooled by such things.
They make up things that are completely false, like claiming there are 400 verses proving OSAS and 200 verses out of context that go against it. In reality, the promoters of OSAS have perhaps 6 to 8 recycled verses they use out of context to promote their doctrine. I have even seen one of them do a post where he said that if OSAS is not true, God lied about 5 or 6 things, and gave scripture references. The problem is, the scriptures did not say what the person claimed, but he knew most would never read them.
If you doubt me, do the research. Go back and read those long threads. Look at the arguments. Also, look how many scriptures people like Cletus used to show OSAS is false that were completely ignored. OSAS is a man-made doctrine, and is not Biblical. Nobody would come to that belief just reading through the New Testament without someone leading them to believe it. Am I wrong about what I am saying? Here is your chance to prove me wrong. This is the way they argue, and they do use very little scripture. That brings up another question. If they do not use much scripture and ignore dozens of passages in the Bible, their doctrine came from somewhere. Someone other than God and the Bible came up with unconditional eternal security, and people keep repeating the lies. Where did it really originate? Did people just take Calvin's doctrine and create something from it, but a belief that is completely unbiblical? That is what it looks like. It looks like they liked some things about Calvinism, but not others, so they modified it, and even though it is not Biblical, people still believe it because they want to.
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Post by Berean on Jun 8, 2020 14:10:57 GMT -5
You guys are right. I took a close look at the kind of arguments they are making in favor of OSAS, and they use very little scripture. Keep defending Bible truth.
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