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Post by John on Jun 22, 2020 15:17:10 GMT -5
I have been meditating on this open mindedly and objectively here lately. quite a bit actually. my main concern here is do we need to separate out salvation/eternal life from God's love here? how do we define God's love? The Book says while we were yet sinners Christ died for us... The Book says God told Hosea to take a wife of whoredoms. we know repentance is a condition. confess, repent, and be reconciled to God. The Book also tells us of the prodigal son. speaking in terms of Father/child relationship... child acts up, and Father has to correct. Speaking in terms of Husband/wife... a wife goes whoring about, the Husband will not be made to be a fool. in both these analogies we find Father desiring us to return unto Him. while a father is correcting a child, he still loves his child. when a husband is still attempting to work it out with his bride, and even after he still loves her. while we were yet sinners, it says. I speak the truth when i say The Almighty told me He would cast me off forever if i didnt repent at one point. again repentance is the condition. but my question is even if you didnt does God no longer love you? God was surely angry with me and His tone and presence... there was no doubt... but He did still seek reconciliation. Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Isa 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me. Gods promises never fail. I dont think God stops loving you if you turn from Him. I dont think its off and on... and if it were would it really be Love? I think He still loves you, its just sin is not something he allows in His presence. what i believe is that the standard that we are to live... that standard is above each of our own lives. and really it is. If Jesus had sinned just once God would no longer have been Holy... and our salvation would have been an impossibility as The sacrificial Lamb had to be without spot or blemish... according to the law. Holiness is life. Sin is death. just because you get mad at someone for doing wrong you dont stop loving them. they still have to make it right in order to continue on with the relationship. just so happens we are in a relationship with THE KING OF KINGS. if we have this capacity, surely God does also. I encourage anyone who can to expose any error in what i have said to do so. I think its correct, by scripture, and experience from walking with Him. When someone has walked away from God one of the main points to bring them back is to instill in their mind God is not against them and does still love them. once they get over the hurdle of God dont love them anymore, and they repent, then they begin to experience Him in their life again. This whole question is interesting, and I'm not sure that I know the correct answer, but there is one thing I noticed in what you said. You seem to be speaking in terms of Christians who stray. It seems like in the OP, it is talking about the whole human race, and a place where people are cast into hell. I also know that people do sometimes come to a place in a relationship where they stop loving one another. It happens in a lot of marriage relationships where one person is wronged. So does God come to a place where he stops loving someone? Is his love unconditional? I'm not sure. There are 2 possible things you could ask. 1 Is God's love unconditional for those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior? 2 Is God's love for the world as a whole unconditional?
Does God casting people into hell mean he no longer loves them or is it just about his holiness and justice?
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Post by John on Jun 22, 2020 15:21:51 GMT -5
Here is one of those questions I feel the need to ask because I cannot honestly say I ever remember reading anyplace in scripture where it says that. I know that God so loved the world that He sent his only begotten Son to save it, but what of those who reject God's Son? Is His love unconditional for them? Was God's love unconditional for Judas Iscariot? Would God send someone He loves unconditionally to hell? I am not saying He would not. It could be a matter of His justice demanding it, so I am not saying one way or the other, but only asking questions. What do you think and why? Do you know of any scripture that says God's love is unconditional, and do you believe God's love is unconditional? The answer is no. The condition is that you as a free agent human being, do not reject his gift of love and His Holy Presence. Which brings about the question, at what point does God start loving someone? We know God loved "the world," his creation as a whole, so much He sent His only begotten Son, but when it comes to individuals, does God love the sinners and those who reject the Lord? Does He love those that Jesus himself said were of "their Father the devil?" I do not think the answer is as clear as some lead us to believe. He does not want any to perish, so He desires to save them, but at what point does he love them, and does His love ever end for those he created, even after He sentences them to the lake of fire?
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Jun 22, 2020 17:59:13 GMT -5
I have been meditating on this open mindedly and objectively here lately. quite a bit actually. my main concern here is do we need to separate out salvation/eternal life from God's love here? how do we define God's love? The Book says while we were yet sinners Christ died for us... The Book says God told Hosea to take a wife of whoredoms. we know repentance is a condition. confess, repent, and be reconciled to God. The Book also tells us of the prodigal son. speaking in terms of Father/child relationship... child acts up, and Father has to correct. Speaking in terms of Husband/wife... a wife goes whoring about, the Husband will not be made to be a fool. in both these analogies we find Father desiring us to return unto Him. while a father is correcting a child, he still loves his child. when a husband is still attempting to work it out with his bride, and even after he still loves her. while we were yet sinners, it says. I speak the truth when i say The Almighty told me He would cast me off forever if i didnt repent at one point. again repentance is the condition. but my question is even if you didnt does God no longer love you? God was surely angry with me and His tone and presence... there was no doubt... but He did still seek reconciliation. Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Isa 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me. Gods promises never fail. I dont think God stops loving you if you turn from Him. I dont think its off and on... and if it were would it really be Love? I think He still loves you, its just sin is not something he allows in His presence. what i believe is that the standard that we are to live... that standard is above each of our own lives. and really it is. If Jesus had sinned just once God would no longer have been Holy... and our salvation would have been an impossibility as The sacrificial Lamb had to be without spot or blemish... according to the law. Holiness is life. Sin is death. just because you get mad at someone for doing wrong you dont stop loving them. they still have to make it right in order to continue on with the relationship. just so happens we are in a relationship with THE KING OF KINGS. if we have this capacity, surely God does also. I encourage anyone who can to expose any error in what i have said to do so. I think its correct, by scripture, and experience from walking with Him. When someone has walked away from God one of the main points to bring them back is to instill in their mind God is not against them and does still love them. once they get over the hurdle of God dont love them anymore, and they repent, then they begin to experience Him in their life again. This whole question is interesting, and I'm not sure that I know the correct answer, but there is one thing I noticed in what you said. You seem to be speaking in terms of Christians who stray. It seems like in the OP, it is talking about the whole human race, and a place where people are cast into hell. I also know that people do sometimes come to a place in a relationship where they stop loving one another. It happens in a lot of marriage relationships where one person is wronged. So does God come to a place where he stops loving someone? Is his love unconditional? I'm not sure. you are correct... i do speak in terms of believers who turn from Him. I took this approach because us turning from Him is a dis-qualifier of eternal life... PER SCRIPTURE. this is why i prefaced with do we need to separate salvation/eternal life from God's love?
the underlaying fact here is God does not need us. If we dont live clean He will get someone else.
another reason i took this position in my response is because we have a whole bunch of God's people who are not living right. they need to return to Him.
if we define God loving someone as blessing them or providing for them, then there is for sure conditions. if God's love is just that He cares deeply for you, well i think thats not so conditional.
the truth is... if we dont obey... if we do not live right... we are NOT loving God. He wants whats real, and genuine. He wants out heart, all of it, not holding a part back like Ananias and Sapphira did. and i got to boast in The KING here... what did He not give us? His only begotten? oh yes. His own blood? oh yes. He layed down His own life... He already owned us... but then He bought us back. I dont seem to be able to see where it fits He would just stop loving us. other than of course, us turning from Him.
now to address what you said concerning the whole human race. we know God hardened Pharaohs heart... even in times when Pharaoh was like.. ok you can go. Pharaoh repented alright but in the wrong way. this was to accomplish God's will. aside from me obeying i dont know what His will is for the whole human race. I dont even want to try to wrap my mind around it. He is the potter. He can do what He wants with the clay. maybe its just the enemy needs some people in his camp so God can show how awesome He is? I do not know this.
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Jun 22, 2020 18:23:08 GMT -5
The answer is no. The condition is that you as a free agent human being, do not reject his gift of love and His Holy Presence. Which brings about the question, at what point does God start loving someone? We know God loved "the world," his creation as a whole, so much He sent His only begotten Son, but when it comes to individuals, does God love the sinners and those who reject the Lord? Does He love those that Jesus himself said were of "their Father the devil?" I do not think the answer is as clear as some lead us to believe. He does not want any to perish, so He desires to save them, but at what point does he love them, and does His love ever end for those he created, even after He sentences them to the lake of fire? i think another good question is what can someone do to get God to love them?
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Post by frienduff on Jun 22, 2020 18:27:37 GMT -5
The last thing we want to do is overthink this stuff . cause it will lead to the concpet of a universal salvation . WHICH is NOT TRUE . All we need to know is JESUS is the only name whereby one can be saved . IF they reject that , ITS a lake of fire . AND , IF BELEIVERS CONTINUE NOT IN HIS GOODNESS THEY TOO WILL BE CAST OUT . and we can deny him by our actions . WHEN we deny HIS sayings , WE deny THE FAITH . Paul was clear .
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 22, 2020 19:05:45 GMT -5
...do you believe God's love is unconditional? Love rejoices in the truth.
❝Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.❞ - John 17:17
❝For whom the Lord loves He corrects,
Just as a father the son in whom he delights.❞ - Proverbs 3:12
❝But if you are without chastening,
of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.❞ - Hebrews 12:8
God's love is what makes people to keep and, consequently, walk in agreement to His Word.
❝Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?❞ - Amos 3:3
❝He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.
And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.❞ - John 14:21
❝Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.❞ - 1 John 2:3
Conclusion:
❝For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater,
has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Let no one deceive you with empty words,
for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.❞ - Ephesians 5:5-6
Blessings to you in Jesus' name!
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Post by John on Jun 22, 2020 19:06:30 GMT -5
Which brings about the question, at what point does God start loving someone? We know God loved "the world," his creation as a whole, so much He sent His only begotten Son, but when it comes to individuals, does God love the sinners and those who reject the Lord? Does He love those that Jesus himself said were of "their Father the devil?" I do not think the answer is as clear as some lead us to believe. He does not want any to perish, so He desires to save them, but at what point does he love them, and does His love ever end for those he created, even after He sentences them to the lake of fire? i think another good question is what can someone do to get God to love them? I suppose the one man that would know the answer to that is John The Beloved.
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Post by watchful on Jun 23, 2020 7:45:29 GMT -5
The last thing we want to do is overthink this stuff . cause it will lead to the concpet of a universal salvation . WHICH is NOT TRUE . All we need to know is JESUS is the only name whereby one can be saved . IF they reject that , ITS a lake of fire . AND , IF BELEIVERS CONTINUE NOT IN HIS GOODNESS THEY TOO WILL BE CAST OUT . and we can deny him by our actions . WHEN we deny HIS sayings , WE deny THE FAITH . Paul was clear . I am not sure everyone is understanding what is being said or not.....? I'm confused by some of the responses. It's not possible to arrive at a conclusion of universal salvation for those of us who are saying that God's love and the idea of punishment/hell are not mutually exclusive concepts.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 23, 2020 7:55:12 GMT -5
The last thing we want to do is overthink this stuff . cause it will lead to the concpet of a universal salvation . WHICH is NOT TRUE . All we need to know is JESUS is the only name whereby one can be saved . IF they reject that , ITS a lake of fire . AND , IF BELEIVERS CONTINUE NOT IN HIS GOODNESS THEY TOO WILL BE CAST OUT . and we can deny him by our actions . WHEN we deny HIS sayings , WE deny THE FAITH . Paul was clear . I am not sure everyone is understanding what is being said or not.....? I'm confused by some of the responses. It's not possible to arrive at a conclusion of universal salvation for those of us who are saying that God's love and the idea of punishment/hell are not mutually exclusive concepts. Agreed dear sister . WE have to always behold BOTH the Goodness of GOD and His severity too . But many get focused on one side and leave the other undone . And that leads to their own destruction . We must behold both . Truly its for our own good and all who might even hear us . May our sister from the northern lands PRAISE THE LORD .
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Post by frienduff on Jun 23, 2020 7:57:10 GMT -5
i think another good question is what can someone do to get God to love them? I suppose the one man that would know the answer to that is John The Beloved. Would we also like to hear what OUR VERY OWN KING SAID about LOVE . HE who keeps my sayings , MY FATHER WILL LOVE HIM . HE actually SAID THAT . And He will come and make His abode with them . Yet , folks want the love of GOD and yet to their own destruction they dont keep the things our LORD did say .
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Post by watchful on Jun 23, 2020 9:12:18 GMT -5
I am not sure everyone is understanding what is being said or not.....? I'm confused by some of the responses. It's not possible to arrive at a conclusion of universal salvation for those of us who are saying that God's love and the idea of punishment/hell are not mutually exclusive concepts. Agreed dear sister . WE have to always behold BOTH the Goodness of GOD and His severity too . But many get focused on one side and leave the other undone . And that leads to their own destruction . We must behold both . Truly its for our own good and all who might even hear us . May our sister from the northern lands PRAISE THE LORD . Oh, yes it's true. Many DO get focused on one side and leave the other undone. And it does lead to death, so we need to beware of both ditches on the side of the narrow road. But there is nothing wrong with taking a few moments to meditate and look into either one side or the other, as it were. It should not be discouraged to look into the love of God...heaven forbid! Many need that encouragement and reminding of His love, for ourselves as well as to ensure we have a right spirit in dealing with others. We should not fear that looking at the love of the Lord will lead to ignoring His severity. Nobody here is leaving anything undone.....if we would give a conversation time to unfold then more could be brought out. I was about to mention that not only IS God love, but He also IS a consuming fire, and what we can glean from these things.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 23, 2020 11:13:58 GMT -5
Agreed dear sister . WE have to always behold BOTH the Goodness of GOD and His severity too . But many get focused on one side and leave the other undone . And that leads to their own destruction . We must behold both . Truly its for our own good and all who might even hear us . May our sister from the northern lands PRAISE THE LORD . Oh, yes it's true. Many DO get focused on one side and leave the other undone. And it does lead to death, so we need to beware of both ditches on the side of the narrow road. But there is nothing wrong with taking a few moments to meditate and look into either one side or the other, as it were. It should not be discouraged to look into the love of God...heaven forbid! Many need that encouragement and reminding of His love, for ourselves as well as to ensure we have a right spirit in dealing with others. We should not fear that looking at the love of the Lord will lead to ignoring His severity. Nobody here is leaving anything undone.....if we would give a conversation time to unfold then more could be brought out. I was about to mention that not only IS God love, but He also IS a consuming fire, and what we can glean from these things. Exactly always speak on both the goodness and severity of GOD . One key thing to always be on gaurd for .........is this . Groups of folks that constantly talk about the love of GOD . and yet nothing else . Those are infected . They will often go after those who would warn and remind to be Holy . Warn and remind out against sin . see they have been programmed under a false love . Look to JESUS for what love entails , then look to what the apostels wrote , for they were of Christ . Then compare that to what you see in most folks . And we gonna see PROBLEMS in tha HOUSE with many . In these days we must be on careful gaurd more than ever before . For a delusion fills fast the land . And many are cheering on that which is not of GOD . But oh yes , we should always speak of the Love of GOD and the severity too . its all needed .
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Jun 23, 2020 15:08:58 GMT -5
The answer is no. The condition is that you as a free agent human being, do not reject his gift of love and His Holy Presence. Which brings about the question, at what point does God start loving someone? We know God loved "the world," his creation as a whole, so much He sent His only begotten Son, but when it comes to individuals, does God love the sinners and those who reject the Lord? Does He love those that Jesus himself said were of "their Father the devil?" I do not think the answer is as clear as some lead us to believe. He does not want any to perish, so He desires to save them, but at what point does he love them, and does His love ever end for those he created, even after He sentences them to the lake of fire? There's erotic love, friend love, safe love, dangerous love, wise love, foolish love....
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Jun 23, 2020 15:09:50 GMT -5
Agreed dear sister . WE have to always behold BOTH the Goodness of GOD and His severity too . But many get focused on one side and leave the other undone . And that leads to their own destruction . We must behold both . Truly its for our own good and all who might even hear us . May our sister from the northern lands PRAISE THE LORD . Oh, yes it's true. Many DO get focused on one side and leave the other undone. And it does lead to death, so we need to beware of both ditches on the side of the narrow road. But there is nothing wrong with taking a few moments to meditate and look into either one side or the other, as it were. It should not be discouraged to look into the love of God...heaven forbid! Many need that encouragement and reminding of His love, for ourselves as well as to ensure we have a right spirit in dealing with others. We should not fear that looking at the love of the Lord will lead to ignoring His severity. Nobody here is leaving anything undone.....if we would give a conversation time to unfold then more could be brought out. I was about to mention that not only IS God love, but He also IS a consuming fire, and what we can glean from these things. The Bible says that our God is a consuming fire!!!
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Jun 23, 2020 15:50:40 GMT -5
I don't think anyone has suggested they believe in universal salvation, not in this thread anyway. I don't believe that. I think the question is just whether or not God's love itself is unconditional? People say it is, but does the Bible support that? Even after reading all the responses, I'm not sure.
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