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Post by tlsitd on Jun 14, 2018 19:00:41 GMT -5
I just saw a video clip of a supposed 'false prophet' confronting pastor John MacArthur at his church which grieved and angered me. A young man, dressed in black---Scottish---rebuked John MacArthur during a church service for teaching the false doctrine of cessation of the spiritual gifts. I didn't watch the whole clip; I was quite disgusted by Mr. MacArthur's reaction and that of his congregation and didn't care to see any more.
Whether the young man was actually a prophet or not, I do not know, but he was right about 'cessationism' being a false doctrine/heresy; and how could anyone in that audience know whether he was a prophet or not? MacArthur was in error, whether he or his audience believed it or not. And if that young man really was sent by God to rebuke Mr. MacArthur for his erroneous teaching, as he claimed to have been, for Mr. MacArthur's own good and that of his congregation, Mr. MacArthur is in serious trouble with Jesus Christ---not only for his false teaching, which is a very serious matter in God's eyes, but also for rejecting His messenger, which God may have sent him in His mercy.
I was only more disgusted when I Googled the subject and it brought up articles by various Christian publications, which mostly sided with MacArthur (perhaps because of his reputation or influence, which they should not have) and labeled the man who rebuked him a 'self-proclaimed prophet' or a 'prophet', like the video clip had labelled him a 'false prophet'.
If the criterion for being a false prophet is prophesying something that is not true, than the criterion for being a false teacher is teaching something that is not true---which would make John MacArthur a false teacher, based on his teaching of the cessation of the spiritual gifts.
(Actually, what makes a person a false prophet or a false teacher is their not being born-again, not their prophesying something that isn't correct or teaching something that isn't correct. A person may not be a true prophet, but that doesn't make him a false one, unless he is also not born again. Likewise with pastors: They may teach things that aren't correct, but that doesn't make them false teachers, unless they are also not born again.)
If the spiritual gifts have ceased, then John MacArthur himself is no more legitimate than the supposedly 'self-proclaimed' prophet who rebuked him, since being a pastor is one of the spiritual gifts, along with prophets, apostles and evangelists. You never hear anyone laughing when someone claims to be a pastor or an evangelist, as though the person is mad. According to people, one doesn't need to have a spiritual gift to be a pastor or an evangelist, but according to the Scriptures, they do, just as prophets do. Nobody can become a prophet by going to school to become one, and no one can become a pastor or an evangelist that way either, even though they may serve in that capacity. If God hasn't called and prepared you with the gifts to do what you are doing (pastor, prophet, evangelist), you're not qualified and not legitimate, regardless of degrees or human ordination.
And a God-sent, God-ordained, God-equipped pastor would not be teaching that the spiritual gifts have ceased, which is a false teaching.
JAMES 3:1
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 14, 2018 20:43:12 GMT -5
tlsitd The problem is mainly, as I have observed, is that people who believe in cessation of the spiritual gifts (especially prophecy) have a very different interpretation of scriptures.
When that supposed prophet entered and prophesied to them, in the minds of many, the scriptures were being fulfilled and many believe that guy indeed is a false prophet.
Why?! Because they interpret this verse:
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves." - Matthew 7:15
You just have to claim you are a prophet, speak something contrary to what they believe... Then done, you are false prophet in their eyes.
And if you believe in the existence of spiritual gifts and claim to exercise them... For them, you are just one more that will be here:
"Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:22-23
They do not interpret prophets in that context the way it should be, to them it is simply anyone that claims to have prophecy gift and have message from the Holy Spirit.
And as their doctrine teach that the gift of prophecy is no longer in operation... They will just believe that they are right, and you are a false prophet.
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 15, 2018 5:17:49 GMT -5
tlsitd The problem is mainly, as I have observed, is that people who believe in cessation of the spiritual gifts (especially prophecy) have a very different interpretation of scriptures.
When that supposed prophet entered and prophesied to them, in the minds of many, the scriptures were being fulfilled and many believe that guy indeed is a false prophet.
Why?! Because they interpret this verse:
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves." - Matthew 7:15
You just have to claim you are a prophet, speak something contrary to what they believe... Then done, you are false prophet in their eyes.
And if you believe in the existence of spiritual gifts and claim to exercise them... For them, you are just one more that will be here:
"Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:22-23
They do not interpret prophets in that context the way it should be, to them it is simply anyone that claims to have prophecy gift and have message from the Holy Spirit.
And as their doctrine teach that the gift of prophecy is no longer in operation... They will just believe that they are right, and you are a false prophet. Which is a shame, because the gift of prophecy is primarily for believers (1 Corinthians 14:22), and if there is any spiritual gift that is needed at this time, the prophetic gift is it. God raises up prophets in times of apostasy, to turn His people back to Him and to warn them of His forthcoming judgment; but we know from the Scriptures that they are seldom well received and that their warnings and rebukes are in vain for the majority. My heart goes out to that young man, whoever he is.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 15, 2018 9:06:39 GMT -5
Which is a shame, because the gift of prophecy is primarily for believers (1 Corinthians 14:22), and if there is any spiritual gift that is needed at this time, the prophetic gift is it. I believe they have a very different idea of what being born again actually is.
They believe that anyone who comes and confess to be a sinner and say that Jesus is their savior is born again.
And they start being feed the idea that they are already saved, that they were accepted in God's eyes.
That is how their resistance against the conviction of the Holy Spirit is installed.
I believe only those who are sheep will in the future hear the voice of the Lord and see the truth, and repent sincerely with their hearts and turn indeed to God.
Because they initially believed they needed nothing more, that they were already saved and walking to heaven, even while loving their sins (i.e. without a sincere heart and love for God).
That is why many, and many of them will simply reject any prophecy that is telling them to repent, even when clearly convicted by the Holy Spirit.
Many will pass their entire lives fighting against it, rejecting the love of the truth, repentance and grace.
To many of them, you can simply do anything with your life, after being saved in their understanding: suicide, murder, sexual immorality...
Their understanding is you do such things because you are a sinner, and will continually living under the risks of falling to such things.
But they tell you not to worry because your salvation is granted.
They see exhortations and calling to repentance as a form of reminding them they are sinners, and it takes away their peace, and fear of condemnation takes place.
They do not understand that this happens because: They need to repent.
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 15, 2018 11:31:06 GMT -5
Which is a shame, because the gift of prophecy is primarily for believers (1 Corinthians 14:22), and if there is any spiritual gift that is needed at this time, the prophetic gift is it. I believe they have a very different idea of what being born again actually is.
They believe that anyone who comes and confess to be a sinner and say that Jesus is their savior is born again.
And they start being feed the idea that they are already saved, that they were accepted in God's eyes.
That is how their resistance against the conviction of the Holy Spirit is installed.
I believe only those who are sheep will in the future hear the voice of the Lord and see the truth, and repent sincerely with their hearts and turn indeed to God.
Because they initially believed they needed nothing more, that they were already saved and walking to heaven, even while loving their sins (i.e. without a sincere heart and love for God).
That is why many, and many of them will simply reject any prophecy that is telling them to repent, even when clearly convicted by the Holy Spirit.
Many will pass their entire lives fighting against it, rejecting the love of the truth, repentance and grace.
To many of them, you can simply do anything with your life, after being saved in their understanding: suicide, murder, sexual immorality...
Their understanding is you do such things because you are a sinner, and will continually living under the risks of falling to such things.
But they tell you not to worry because your salvation is granted.
They see exhortations and calling to repentance as a form of reminding them they are sinners, and it takes away their peace, and fear of condemnation takes place.
They do not understand that this happens because: They need to repent.
Yes, unfortunately repentance-less, conversion-less 'salvation' is just one of the many perverse teachings that are popular in the churches today, (and money is a large reason why). Most of the people in this world who profess to be Christians aren't truly born again. And most of those who ARE, are apostate (according to the New Testament)---not obeying the Lord as they should and not much like Him in mind either, so they're happy in the world and at ease in the company of professing Christians who don't know the Lord at all. Unregenerate men don't want to be told that they need to repent in order to be saved from hell and the lake of fire; they want heaven but not the One who dwells there; they want God's goodies and promises but they don't want to obey Him in order to receive them. And most Christians are the same: They want heaven but have little interest in getting to know or worshiping the One who will be the joy and focus of heaven (and not crowns or mansions); they want God's goodies and promises but they don't want to obey Him in order to receive them. This is the rotten salad you find in the churches: Fake saints and disobedient, adulterous true saints whose love for Jesus is lukewarm or cold. They're both going to go down the garbage disposal together.
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Post by John on Jun 15, 2018 14:49:20 GMT -5
Of course the gifts of the Spirit are still in operation. Anyone teaching they are not is a false teacher. I agree 100 percent. I also believe that God will sometimes send a prophet to give warnings like the one you described. In addition to rejecting the prophet's message, what did John MacArthur do? Do you have a link to the clip?
It wasn't too long ago that someone said a person came to a member of WCF and told them they were sick because of sins they had committed, and rather than consider it, the reaction was anger, and a how dare they do that attitude. What if God sent that person? What if God wanted to heal the person that was sick, but it required them to repent first? Prophets have always been hated. It is the most thankless ministry there is. Unless you tell people what they want to hear, you will be persecuted.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 15, 2018 14:58:56 GMT -5
JohnIt is very possible... And I believe people who are living in disobedience (as sexual immorality) can and will fall to diseases.
But when people are into that kind of doctrine that will not believe prophets who speak truth because they believe in their doctrine above all things.
And according to their doctrine, they cannot be punished by willful sins nor receive a message of truth from a God sent messenger.
This is shocking! Where is the discernment?!
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 15, 2018 15:07:51 GMT -5
This is the clip:
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Post by John on Jun 18, 2018 12:18:06 GMT -5
This is the kind of reaction you get from a person that has been embarrassed, so they try to turn it around on the other person. This is someone who is unteachable. When confronted with scripture, he makes fun of it.
Was this person out of order? You could make that argument. Is he a prophet? Only God knows for sure.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 18, 2018 12:45:44 GMT -5
Was this person out of order? You could make that argument. Is he a prophet? Only God knows for sure. I do not think so. Quite probably.
"He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him." - John 1:11
"I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive." - John 5:43
This is very common to happen, people who have no proper discernment will trust in appearance and worldly rankings rather than righteous judgment.
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?" - Matthew 7:15-16
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24
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Post by John on Jun 18, 2018 13:06:06 GMT -5
I do think it is safe to say John MacArthur wouldn't have given him a time to speak.
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Post by John on Jun 19, 2018 5:07:58 GMT -5
I was watching the video again last night where the man rebuked John MacArthur. He definitely seemed sincere, like he believed God had sent him. I have looked all over the internet to see if anyone knows the identity of the prophet, and nobody does. He is just referred to over and over as the self-proclaimed prophet. I almost wonder if God could have sent an angel to warn John MacArthur. You would think somebody would know the man's identity, and we are told in scripture it is possible to entertain angels unaware. The man's message seemed genuine to me, and I don't know of any other way he could have gotten MacArthur's attention, so at least in my view, I personally believe the man was a real prophet and likely sent by God. If the message is from God, based on how MacArthur reacted, he will have to give account to the Lord for the way he treated his prophet and for teaching false doctrine.
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 19, 2018 5:58:10 GMT -5
I was watching the video again last night where the man rebuked John MacArthur. He definitely seemed sincere, like he believed God had sent him. I have looked all over the internet to see if anyone knows the identity of the prophet, and nobody does. He is just referred to over and over as the self-proclaimed prophet. I almost wonder if God could have sent an angel to warn John MacArthur. You would think somebody would know the man's identity, and we are told in scripture it is possible to entertain angels unaware. The man's message seemed genuine to me, and I don't know of any other way he could have gotten MacArthur's attention, so at least in my view, I personally believe the man was a real prophet and likely sent by God. If the message is from God, based on how MacArthur reacted, he will have to give account to the Lord for the way he treated his prophet and for teaching false doctrine.
I'm also inclined to believe that the man was a prophet. But I don't believe that John MacArthur is a God-appointed, God-made pastor---just a pastor made by man through a seminary, and esteemed by men, like so many are----not only because of his false teaching about the cessation of the spiritual gifts but also because of his heresy about the mark of the beast not being an unforgivable sin, due to his own misunderstanding of the Scriptures. Way to prepare the people of God for the tribulation: Tell them that there are no true prophets anymore, and that they can still repent if they take the mark. This man is NO pastor. He's going to pay dearly for his false teaching. (The irony of this video: A probably true prophet being dismissed as a 'self-proclaimed prophet' by an apparently smug, illegitimate, man-made pastor.) We need more true prophets of God at this hour. What we DON'T need is more phony pastors teaching heresy. (John MacArthur should have been the one carried out of the church.) "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends. (2 Corinthians 10:18)
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Post by justinadams on Jun 19, 2018 6:14:07 GMT -5
Have steered clear of J. Mac. for a long time now.
So many of the old-but-good seem to have fallen or gone astray. So much so that I cannot follow any 'popular' person any longer.
Cessationists are fond of pointing out 'heresy' when they have those three fingers pointing back at them.
And they both shall fall into the ditch...
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Post by John on Jun 19, 2018 6:30:43 GMT -5
I wasn't aware he taught a person that takes the mark of the beast could be saved. That is completely heretical, and how many people will take the mark based on this false teaching!
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