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Post by tlsitd on Jun 16, 2018 0:00:02 GMT -5
An article on the subject to peruse which reflects my own position on it.
www.evangelicaloutreach.org/headcovering.htm
(As with other articles I post, my agreement with a particular author on a particular subject is not indicative of my endorsement of the author or his/her organization or ministry, or of my agreement with any other writings of theirs.)
*Just a note: In case anyone is wondering---as an unmarried woman (never been married, no husband), I cover my own hair for the purpose of not causing unnecessary offense to people who have a difference of opinion on the subject (Romans 14:13-19), and who might perceive me to be flouting the teaching of the Scriptures (1 Thessalonians 5:22 (KJV)), not because I have to according to the Scriptures.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jun 16, 2018 7:55:01 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing this. It always seemed clear to me that Paul meant long hair and nothing more, as Scripture says. This is as plain as day to any objective thinker. Hair is the natural covering that grows itself.
I was wondering why you always had a cloth on your head. Thanks for explaining.
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Post by John on Jun 16, 2018 10:43:07 GMT -5
"But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." 1 Corinthians 11:15.
I don't know of any other way you can take this but to mean that the woman's long hair is her covering, but if a woman's hair is not long, perhaps because she is unable to grow it long for any number of reasons such as chemotherapy, a covering could be used. There are some women that may just want to go the extra mile to make a statement that they are under their God-given covering. A physical head covering does stand out.
I understand the point about single verses married, but to the single woman, her head is Christ, even if she doesn't have a husband, so she should have long hair as a sign of submission to him. Us guys are to keep our hair short as a sign we are in submission to our spiritual head, which is Jesus Christ. The sign of submission for the woman is long hair, while the sign of submission to the man is short hair.
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Post by ladypeartree on Jun 16, 2018 11:27:56 GMT -5
I remember having a debate about this many years ago with the elders of the church I then attended ( ALL women were required to cover their head with a hat or scarf during prayer meetings ) Their take on it was a woman with long hair was flouting herself as it was glorious and therefore should be covered as it " took away the glory that should belong to God " I complied as it didn't bother me one way or the other but I do know of several women even elders wives that hated it and tried to persuade them otherwise as they didn't like having " hat head " at the end of a service
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jun 16, 2018 11:42:42 GMT -5
Yes, the logic of a cloth cover usually starts because of modesty. People exploit 1 Peter 3 to suggest that pretty hair is materialistic. They don’t want women with pretty hair to make less attractive women feel inferior. So women are punished for being born with nice hair, and they have to hide it like it’s something to be ashamed of.
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Post by ladypeartree on Jun 16, 2018 11:49:22 GMT -5
lol for many of the older ladies it became almost a competition to see who had the prettiest hat so totally defeating the object .. the younger ones tended to wear plain berets almost hanging off the back of their heads but still complying
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 16, 2018 12:00:08 GMT -5
lol for many of the older ladies it became almost a competition to see who had the prettiest hat so totally defeating the object .. the younger ones tended to wear plain berets almost hanging off the back of their heads but still complying Ah, the counterproductive results of imposed religion vs genuine religion by conviction of personal faith...
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Jun 17, 2018 18:28:23 GMT -5
a proper understanding of 1 cor. 11 is based not only on creation principles, but also Corinthian social customs and not just that of believers. The Creation aspects such as adam and eve were created interdependently of one another, and together they make up humanity in its completed form which reveals Gods glory and headship of Christ. woman being the Glory of man. the creation truths became intertwined with customs of woman covering their head so much that even the pagans did it. Another aspect of uncovered or "short" possibly shaven/shorn hair on a woman was symbolic of a "loose or unclean" woman. check out Numbers chapter 5 to read about the jealousy ritual. And even more than that shaven heads for woman back then was also symbolic of one who was involved with magic or sorcery of some sorts. Been awhile since i studied up on this specific chapter. If you are interested info is available on this. its perfectly fine for a woman to wear a cloth on her head if she chooses to, but God does not look to our outward-ness. He looks more on the inside of the cup. Its not a have to thing. But if a woman does choose to, we should respect her decision because its a sign of submission to Jesus/her husband. And yes, it does say her hair is her covering. This is not our customs today... but there is nothing wrong with showing respect/submission either.
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Post by justinadams on Jun 18, 2018 5:05:25 GMT -5
a proper understanding of 1 cor. 11 is based not only on creation principles, but also Corinthian social customs and not just that of believers. The Creation aspects such as adam and eve were created interdependently of one another, and together they make up humanity in its completed form which reveals Gods glory and headship of Christ. woman being the Glory of man. the creation truths became intertwined with customs of woman covering their head so much that even the pagans did it. Another aspect of uncovered or "short" possibly shaven/shorn hair on a woman was symbolic of a "loose or unclean" woman. check out Numbers chapter 5 to read about the jealousy ritual. And even more than that shaven heads for woman back then was also symbolic of one who was involved with magic or sorcery of some sorts. Been awhile since i studied up on this specific chapter. If you are interested info is available on this. its perfectly fine for a woman to wear a cloth on her head if she chooses to, but God does not look to our outward-ness. He looks more on the inside of the cup. Its not a have to thing. But if a woman does choose to, we should respect her decision because its a sign of submission to Jesus/her husband. And yes, it does say her hair is her covering. This is not our customs today... but there is nothing wrong with showing respect/submission either. It was the belief that a woman's hair had something to do with fertility (testosterone release) that caused them to cover their heads. Quaint Greek medical knowledge was pervasive and all they had to go on. That the angels who fell also looked upon the fair maidens added weight to this idea that a safe woman was a covered one. That is all it is. No more, no less. Simple. P.s. if you look at the textural colloquial meanings, you will see that the 'seed' was thought to reside with the man - a half truth as their medical knowledge was insufficient to understand completely. Thus when a man gave his 'seed' they thought that he gave the fetus to the woman. Studying history will often show all kinds of quaint beliefs that are often erroneously latched onto by pastors of insufficient knowledge. I can see the Lord God wryly smiling at some of the sermons!
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Post by John on Jun 18, 2018 6:15:10 GMT -5
a proper understanding of 1 cor. 11 is based not only on creation principles, but also Corinthian social customs and not just that of believers. The Creation aspects such as adam and eve were created interdependently of one another, and together they make up humanity in its completed form which reveals Gods glory and headship of Christ. woman being the Glory of man. the creation truths became intertwined with customs of woman covering their head so much that even the pagans did it. Another aspect of uncovered or "short" possibly shaven/shorn hair on a woman was symbolic of a "loose or unclean" woman. check out Numbers chapter 5 to read about the jealousy ritual. And even more than that shaven heads for woman back then was also symbolic of one who was involved with magic or sorcery of some sorts. Been awhile since i studied up on this specific chapter. If you are interested info is available on this. its perfectly fine for a woman to wear a cloth on her head if she chooses to, but God does not look to our outward-ness. He looks more on the inside of the cup. Its not a have to thing. But if a woman does choose to, we should respect her decision because its a sign of submission to Jesus/her husband. And yes, it does say her hair is her covering. This is not our customs today... but there is nothing wrong with showing respect/submission either. It was the belief that a woman's hair had something to do with fertility (testosterone release) that caused them to cover their heads. Quaint Greek medical knowledge was pervasive and all they had to go on. That the angels who fell also looked upon the fair maidens added weight to this idea that a safe woman was a covered one. That is all it is. No more, no less. Simple. P.s. if you look at the textural colloquial meanings, you will see that the 'seed' was thought to reside with the man - a half truth as their medical knowledge was insufficient to understand completely. Thus when a man gave his 'seed' they thought that he gave the fetus to the woman. Studying history will often show all kinds of quaint beliefs that are often erroneously latched onto by pastors of insufficient knowledge. I can see the Lord God wryly smiling at some of the sermons! I remember reading that somewhere, but I never bought into it. If you just take the Bible as written, the woman's long hair symbolizes she is in submission to her spiritual authority, and the man's short hair means he is in submission to his spiritual authority. Look at what you are saying here. You are basing your understanding of the passage based on what people believed to be true, not actual facts, and we are speaking of the Word of God. Paul reaffirms that women should keep their hair long and men should keep their hair short and if they do not, it is a shame unto them. He wouldn't do that based on superstitions.
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Post by justinadams on Jun 18, 2018 7:26:48 GMT -5
www.scribd.com/document/153723406/1-Cor-11-13-15-Testicle-Instead-of-Head-CoveringSaul no doubt knew all of this and yet he still thought it wise for the necessity of head covering. Jude likewise was well aware of 'the angels that sinned'. Indeed his scroll was nearly left out like Enoch because it was not p.c. at the time to talk of these things. Most of these disciples had a very good education and were multi lingual and were in a veritable sea of cultures and counter cultures. The ancient physiology and pagan beliefs rubbed shoulder with early Christians every day. If you have ever been to Greece, India, Pakistan, Nepal, Turkey etc., and many other cultures you will appreciate this. It is not less important just because of ancient physiological understandings. It still has the same import to us and should be treated with due gravity. Understandings are not the antithesis of Christian beliefs but they often clarify and substantiate them making them even more relevant..
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Post by John on Jun 18, 2018 8:19:01 GMT -5
www.scribd.com/document/153723406/1-Cor-11-13-15-Testicle-Instead-of-Head-CoveringSaul no doubt knew all of this and yet he still thought it wise for the necessity of head covering. Jude likewise was well aware of 'the angels that sinned'. Indeed his scroll was nearly left out like Enoch because it was not p.c. at the time to talk of these things. Most of these disciples had a very good education and were multi lingual and were in a veritable sea of cultures and counter cultures. The ancient physiology and pagan beliefs rubbed shoulder with early Christians every day. If you have ever been to Greece, India, Pakistan, Nepal, Turkey etc., and many other cultures you will appreciate this. It is not less important just because of ancient physiological understandings. It still has the same import to us and should be treated with due gravity. Understandings are not the antithesis of Christian beliefs but they often clarify and substantiate them making them even more relevant.. The issue to me is that I don't look at the writings of the New Testament as simply letters written by men who had knowledge of things that were Christian, pagan, superstitions, or Jewish writings. I see them as the inerrant Word of God, which means they wouldn't be based on anything but absolute truth. If I was looking at them as just letters that were compiled and placed in a book, What you are saying would make sense to me.
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Post by justinadams on Jun 19, 2018 4:30:10 GMT -5
Well, I guess it is how we understand how the Lord works.
I see Him as always using people where they are and at what stage they are. It makes them at once truly human and secondly can give us all a boost to know that God takes us as we are.
He does not 'download' a scientific and perfectly accurate set of data to our brains which we then variously go into a trance and write down (then awaken and wonder 'who wrote that?'). He just uses people to convey His meanings via words. Then THE WORD, Yeshua, the Spirit of Prophesy - He takes mere words and gives them TRUE MEANING. The Lord High God is so much more than our vain attempts to contain Him, even in scrolls or concepts. His ways are so far above our ways that to ascribe more to a simple physical thing is bordering on idolatry. Words are just the vehicle the Lord has chosen to communicate with us from time to time but these by no means limits His Abilities one little bit.
All of us could have stood outside Lazarus' tomb and screamed for him to 'come forth' (forever). But the Living God just made the Command - and had to be obeyed. So just the diction and cold letters comprising His words, are absolutely nothing - NOTHING, without His Spirit to breathe life into them. Then, alive, they become THE WORD.
The Word lives in far more dimensions than we can understand - He Bows and comes to us in our dimension thru Love and Humility. He is NOT in any way limited to our dimension or our understanding either.
His words will always accomplish that which they set out to do. That is because they are God's Utterances, not mere alpha comprised sounds. To us this appears simplistic and rather routine, but unless the 'noises' we make are made thru The Spirit of Prophesy (Yeshua) they are just noises.
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