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Post by Tabitha3319 on Sept 3, 2020 14:57:25 GMT -5
It started with a series of sermons by a pastor named Timothy Keller. Addressing faith challenging topics like Evolution and religious pluralism, his words captured me.
I was 14 and starving for truth. And for a public school raised teen like me, Keller had a tremendous influence.
I was already a Christian but his apologetic material sealed the deal that I could be an intellectual Christian right along with the writings of C.S Lewis.
However, it took me years to learn to see through him and others like him to their positive but unbiblical spin on the gospel.
"Faith plus nothing equals everything." said Tullian Tchividjian, influential grandson of evangelist Billy Graham. And soon, thousands were copying him.
Him, Keller, C.J Mahaney, John Piper, and Mark Driscoll are or were the big names of a popular movement known as "New Calvism". This is how I learned about T.U.L.I.P and the doctrines of "total depravity" "irresistible grace".
I didn't question whether Calvism was biblical because it was big God theology and I simply figured folks a lot older and wiser than me must have figured out.
The New Calvism movement really wrapped up the gospel in pretty packaged quotes such as,
" The gospel of justifying faith means that while Christians are, in themselves still sinful and sinning, yet in Christ, in God’s sight, they are accepted and righteous. So we can say that we are more wicked than we ever dared believe, but more loved and accepted in Christ than we ever dared hope — at the very same time. This creates a radical new dynamic for personal growth. It means that the more you see your own flaws and sins, the more precious, electrifying, and amazing God’s grace appears to you. But on the other hand, the more aware you are of God’s grace and acceptance in Christ, the more able you are to drop your denials and self-defenses and admit the true dimensions and character of your sin."
---Timothy Keller
Before I knew it, many pastors were quoting these very same words in their churches.
One radio pastor, Steve Brown, took it a step further.
He says if you're a Christian, "God's not mad at you."
"You are really and truly and completely free. There is no kicker. There is no if, and, or but. You are free. You can do it right or wrong. You can obey or disobey. You can run from Christ or run to Christ. You can choose to become a faithful Christian or an unfaithful Christian. You can cry, cuss, and spit, or laugh, sing, and dance. You can read a novel or the Bible. You can watch television or pray. You're free...really free."
Steve Brown, A Scandalous Freedom
That sounded really good when I heard it first! But imagine my confusion. Could I really live however I wanted without defying God?
To add to the confusion, many people kept quoting these men, straight from Churches with slick marketing and modern looking websites.
They told people over and over that they must simply believe in the work of the cross in order to overcome as a Christian. I call it the magical faith formula.
It did ease some of the guilt I was feeling at the time. I was so confused, I found myself listening to Paul Washer for conviction and Steve Brown to ease my guilt at not being a better Christian!
But what does the Bible say?
James 2:17 King James Version 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Wait a minute, that's not faith plus nothing!
Also, Romans 11:22 King James Version 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Cut off? There's an if? Uh oh.
But wait. OSAS people use Scripture too! Here is one they often use:
Ephesians 2:8-10 King James Version 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
See? Nothing but grace, right? But the verses continue
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
There are those pesky works again. Not just any works. Good works that we must walk in. Faith requires us to take action.
And finally
Hebrews 2:3-4 King James Version 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
The question is rhetorical. Of course we won't escape. We will be cut off like the Israelites in the wilderness.
If your whole faith is built on a manipulated gospel, no matter. The Word of the Lord is true and Holy. But if a whole movement is built on a spiritual house of cards, it too shall fall. And fall, it has. Many of the men I have mentioned have lost their ministries due to sin.
After all, sin is destructive enough to destroy ministry careers, no matter how we put a spin or flat out lie about the gospel.
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Sept 3, 2020 15:53:42 GMT -5
you know whats interesting. when the young rich man asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life... Jesus didnt respond with faith plus nothing. in fact what Jesus told the man with great possessions was go sell what you have and give to the poor that you may have treasure in heaven and come and follow me.
so while we are not justified by works of the law in the sense of earning salvation by doing good stuff, and that its a gift... there is more according to the words of The One we are to believe on... or have faith in.
the problem with these heretical teachings is they dont mention grace in the title of their doctrine. and grace is where they get off track as they dont preach biblical grace but hyper grace. this not only perverts salvation, and the gospel, but also the who of Jesus... who He is and how He is.
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Post by John on Sept 3, 2020 16:37:27 GMT -5
tabitha3319 , thank you for posting this. I did not realize this heresy was so wide spread, and did not know the origins of it. I just knew a few people were repeating what I knew was a lie. Do you know who wrote this article?
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Sept 3, 2020 18:32:22 GMT -5
tabitha3319 , thank you for posting this. I did not realize this heresy was so wide spread, and did not know the origins of it. I just knew a few people were repeating what I knew was a lie. Do you know who wrote this article? You're welcome. I wrote this today.
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Post by John on Sept 3, 2020 18:43:02 GMT -5
tabitha3319 , thank you for posting this. I did not realize this heresy was so wide spread, and did not know the origins of it. I just knew a few people were repeating what I knew was a lie. Do you know who wrote this article? You're welcome. I wrote this today.
So you are testifying from personal experience? That is amazing! Great post!
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Sept 3, 2020 18:48:22 GMT -5
You're welcome. I wrote this today.
So you are testifying from personal experience? That is amazing! Great post! Thank you.
When I was 14, I couldn't afford the book The Reason For God, by Tim Keller but I got the gist of it through a series of online sermons.
It was good for me as a new Christian to counteract what they were teaching me in public school. But I had to grow out of relying on Keller, although he isn't the worst of them.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 3, 2020 19:11:56 GMT -5
Tim Keller gives an air of being super intellectual, like he's really deep, and this attracts a lot of young adults. Tabitha, don't feel bad that you almost fell for him. When young Christians start to look for answers to their questions, the internet shows them Keller and Piper and Driscoll and Friel. They're led to believe that's what all smart Christians listen to. But after a while you realize these guys are empty suits.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 3, 2020 21:21:37 GMT -5
Yep . empty suits . never heard it put like that . But its as good a word as any to describe them .
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Post by watchful on Sept 3, 2020 21:33:12 GMT -5
Praise the Lord for His faithfulness to show you the truth, Tabitha, He is so good. It's hard to fathom people saying "faith plus nothing" when there is an entire New Testament full of "somethings" that we need to take to heart.
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Post by solid on Sept 4, 2020 9:18:13 GMT -5
The only place I heard anyone say faith plus nothing was worthy. I never heard of Keller. James says they're wrong.
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Post by gideons300 on Sept 5, 2020 9:12:26 GMT -5
In truth, our salvation is faith plus nothing. Bear with me for a minute while I explain.
There is no question that the New Testament is full of exhortations for us to DO. Do we remember however how Jesus responded when He was asked "What must we do that we might work the works of God?" He responded "Believe on Him who He has sent."
Everything God expects from us comes because of faith. Yes, we are born again by faith but then is it up to us to do the rest? No! We are called to put off the old man by faith and put on our new nature. Our old nature is the real source of our disobedience and it is our getting free of its grip is what gives us the power to obey, not by our efforts but by God's efforts causing us to obey.! It we have not done this, if we are led to believe that somehow a part of our salvation is not of grace but depends upon our efforts, it is simply a matter of time before the storm will get so intense that we realize we cannot obey as God desires. Why? Our foundation is mixed, part God's grace and part our effort. Self has not been taken out of the equation.
Look, I understand the error of those who espouse "faith plus nothing". But they err not in their words. They err in thinking faith is a one-time static prayer, once uttered by us. We say a prayer, and boom, they assume we are saved no matter what. Faith is a living relationship, and is our "umbilical cord" to God. It is meant to grow, and all things God wants for us and from us is to grow out of that growing faith. We do not get saved by faith and then are told, "Now hold on tight. Obey implicitly. Your salvation depends upon how earnest and sincere and dedicated you are.". That is not good news for those who are weak. Those who are strong think they are fine, that they are pleasing God by their efforts to obey Him, but in reality they are fighting against grace, and not for it, and robbing themselves of the rest God has for us where we finally can cease from our own efforts in trying to obey God.
These I refer to believe that once you say the prayer of faith, God sees you are righteous, as perfect, as holy, and no matter what you do, how you live, even whether or not you repent, nothing will cause to to lose your salvation. I spent many of my posts at Worthy fighting this error.
With that said, there is a reflex reaction error cropping up in the church and that is that faith only can stretch so far and that although we are saved totally by faith, it is up to us to "stay saved" by our obedience. It sounds so logical, so reasonable, for there are many references to our need to heed, to obey, to watch, to DO. And that brings us to the core issue. Who is doing the doing?? Is it us, with our weak flesh mucking up our attempts to obey all the time, or is it Christ in us causing us to obey Him.
I have met many who have never heard that God can actually cause us to walk obediently. Some ridicule the thought, saying that God does not make us robots. Of course that is true.... but.... what if He gave us brand new natures, natures that loved good, with no propensity to drift towards evil, towards disobedience? What if, despite the fact we still have fleshly bodies, those bodies are ruled by godly natures, new natures, where God is no longer with us, but IN us, causing us to make the right choices when temptations come?
Tabitha, that is exactly what God has done, and yet, for nineteen hundred years, satan has succeeded in blinding the church to this wonderful 'narrow way". For much of protestant history, the church held to the need for obedience, and yet, life did not flow like a river. And of late, this new teaching that turns the grace of God into a license to sin has crept in, deceiving many. As a result, the obvious recoil reaction is to fight against it by espousing our need to OBEY. There is one small problem. We can't, as long as our old nature still exists.
The dangers of the "You must obey to remain saved" are:
1) Self confidence will result is some limited successes and result in a form of pride that looks down on any not obeying ,judging them to be destined for hell. This robs God of the glory of bring us from disobedience to obedience, He is the potter, not us. He changes us. He sanctifies us, He brings about obedience in our walks, not us.
2) Those following this truth will be ill prepared when the coming storm hits. It is possible to obey when in times of relative peace, leading people to a deeper confidence they can whether any storm. Like Peter, they will declare with confidence that they will never deny Jesus, and we all know how that turned out. LOL.
There is no question that it is a good thing to want to obey God. But following it to its natural conclusion will land us smack dab in the midst of Paul's Romans 7 dilemma. It is here, when we finally arrive at our breaking point, admitting we need God to deliver us from US, from our natures that have a limit as to how far we will carry our obedience, that the miracle of grace is finally seen. It is when we conclude in brokenness that despite our desire to obey Him in all things that we cannot do so, we are ready to awake to righteousness by putting off our old natures by faith. We finally see the real enemy is our carnal nature that cannot obey, cannot love others as we love ourselves, cannot love God with ALL of our hearts.
God asks that our foundation is faith alone, faith plus nothing. He has given us new natures that He can CAUSE obedience to come forth. But.... we must first put them on. And to do that, we must finally put off our old ones, concluding that unless God does it in us, we are doomed to fail at some point,
God causing us to obey Him is one of the main benefits of our birthright, but at present, saints on both sides of the argument have not seen it in its glory. All that is about to change. We who are God's elect are even now being awakened to how deep grace really goes. God did not save us and then tell us to man up and try hard. That is not good news for the weak. It is good news for those confident in themselves and their dedication, No, real grace not only forgives us but changes us causing us to walk as His obedient children.
Where is such an amazing promise found in scripture, where God tells us He will cause us to obey His voice? Here it is....
“‘Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your filthiness and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and ye SHALL keep My judgments and do them."
Ezekiel 36:25-27
Glory to God!
blessings,
Gideon
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Post by watchful on Sept 5, 2020 9:23:11 GMT -5
Blessed are you who hunger and thirst after righteousness for you will be filled. Blessed are you who mourn now for you will be comforted. Jesus came not for the well but for those who are sick; He came not for the righteous but for the unrighteous.
It can take a long while before we start to realize our need.
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Sept 5, 2020 11:58:19 GMT -5
In truth, our salvation is faith plus nothing. Bear with me for a minute while I explain.
There is no question that the New Testament is full of exhortations for us to DO. Do we remember however how Jesus responded when He was asked "What must we do that we might work the works of God?" He responded "Believe on Him who He has sent."
Everything God expects from us comes because of faith. Yes, we are born again by faith but then is it up to us to do the rest? No! We are called to put off the old man by faith and put on our new nature. Our old nature is the real source of our disobedience and it is our getting free of its grip is what gives us the power to obey, not by our efforts but by God's efforts causing us to obey.! It we have not done this, if we are led to believe that somehow a part of our salvation is not of grace but depends upon our efforts, it is simply a matter of time before the storm will get so intense that we realize we cannot obey as God desires. Why? Our foundation is mixed, part God's grace and part our effort. Self has not been taken out of the equation.
Look, I understand the error of those who espouse "faith plus nothing". But they err not in their words. They err in thinking faith is a one-time static prayer, once uttered by us. We say a prayer, and boom, they assume we are saved no matter what. Faith is a living relationship, and is our "umbilical cord" to God. It is meant to grow, and all things God wants for us and from us is to grow out of that growing faith. We do not get saved by faith and then are told, "Now hold on tight. Obey implicitly. Your salvation depends upon how earnest and sincere and dedicated you are.". That is not good news for those who are weak. Those who are strong think they are fine, that they are pleasing God by their efforts to obey Him, but in reality they are fighting against grace, and not for it, and robbing themselves of the rest God has for us where we finally can cease from our own efforts in trying to obey God.
These I refer to believe that once you say the prayer of faith, God sees you are righteous, as perfect, as holy, and no matter what you do, how you live, even whether or not you repent, nothing will cause to to lose your salvation. I spent many of my posts at Worthy fighting this error.
With that said, there is a reflex reaction error cropping up in the church and that is that faith only can stretch so far and that although we are saved totally by faith, it is up to us to "stay saved" by our obedience. It sounds so logical, so reasonable, for there are many references to our need to heed, to obey, to watch, to DO. And that brings us to the core issue. Who is doing the doing?? Is it us, with our weak flesh mucking up our attempts to obey all the time, or is it Christ in us causing us to obey Him.
I have met many who have never heard that God can actually cause us to walk obediently. Some ridicule the thought, saying that God does not make us robots. Of course that is true.... but.... what if He gave us brand new natures, natures that loved good, with no propensity to drift towards evil, towards disobedience? What if, despite the fact we still have fleshly bodies, those bodies are ruled by godly natures, new natures, where God is no longer with us, but IN us, causing us to make the right choices when temptations come?
Tabitha, that is exactly what God has done, and yet, for nineteen hundred years, satan has succeeded in blinding the church to this wonderful 'narrow way". For much of protestant history, the church held to the need for obedience, and yet, life did not flow like a river. And of late, this new teaching that turns the grace of God into a license to sin has crept in, deceiving many. As a result, the obvious recoil reaction is to fight against it by espousing our need to OBEY. There is one small problem. We can't, as long as our old nature still exists.
The dangers of the "You must obey to remain saved" are:
1) Self confidence will result is some limited successes and result in a form of pride that looks down on any not obeying ,judging them to be destined for hell. This robs God of the glory of bring us from disobedience to obedience, He is the potter, not us. He changes us. He sanctifies us, He brings about obedience in our walks, not us.
2) Those following this truth will be ill prepared when the coming storm hits. It is possible to obey when in times of relative peace, leading people to a deeper confidence they can whether any storm. Like Peter, they will declare with confidence that they will never deny Jesus, and we all know how that turned out. LOL.
There is no question that it is a good thing to want to obey God. But following it to its natural conclusion will land us smack dab in the midst of Paul's Romans 7 dilemma. It is here, when we finally arrive at our breaking point, admitting we need God to deliver us from US, from our natures that have a limit as to how far we will carry our obedience, that the miracle of grace is finally seen. It is when we conclude in brokenness that despite our desire to obey Him in all things that we cannot do so, we are ready to awake to righteousness by putting off our old natures by faith. We finally see the real enemy is our carnal nature that cannot obey, cannot love others as we love ourselves, cannot love God with ALL of our hearts.
God asks that our foundation is faith alone, faith plus nothing. He has given us new natures that He can CAUSE obedience to come forth. But.... we must first put them on. And to do that, we must finally put off our old ones, concluding that unless God does it in us, we are doomed to fail at some point,
God causing us to obey Him is one of the main benefits of our birthright, but at present, saints on both sides of the argument have not seen it in its glory. All that is about to change. We who are God's elect are even now being awakened to how deep grace really goes. God did not save us and then tell us to man up and try hard. That is not good news for the weak. It is good news for those confident in themselves and their dedication, No, real grace not only forgives us but changes us causing us to walk as His obedient children.
Where is such an amazing promise found in scripture, where God tells us He will cause us to obey His voice? Here it is....
“‘Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your filthiness and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and ye SHALL keep My judgments and do them."
Ezekiel 36:25-27
Glory to God!
blessings,
Gideon Hi Gideon
I believe God does enable you to walk. But you do have to be trying to walk for Him to enable you. God didn't enable my total obedience until I was actively surrendering my whole life to Him.
I'm not advocating self-effort. I'm saying God can tell when we actually want to be obedient. Striving for that obedience gets our hearts ready to receive God's Spirit.
Yes, striving.
How can you know you need God's help to rid yourself of sin if you never try to resist it?
I got the gift of obedience by total dependence on God for my day. I would ask God, "What should I do right now, Lord?" Or "Lord, what next?"
This wasn't effortless but I found I didn't have time to sin. I surrendered my will and submitted it to Christ.
Then, I got the fruit.
It's not about trying super hard with no dependence on God. We must strive to learn His will for us and walk in that.
Its not about slapping your own wrist but having the attitude of whatever the Lord wants is what I want, then going after that wholeheartedly.
It's not that my own on obedience saved me but I had to seek the Lord wholeheartedly. And that looks just like a person actively getting rid of sin in their life. And not just getting rid of sin but launching those baby legs towards righteousness.
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Post by gideons300 on Sept 5, 2020 12:04:54 GMT -5
Blessed are you who hunger and thirst after righteousness for you will be filled. Blessed are you who mourn now for you will be comforted. Jesus came not for the well but for those who are sick; He came not for the righteous but for the unrighteous. It can take a long while before we start to realize our need. Boy, that is the truth. Iis hard to finally be broken and admit that even on our best day, with all the strength and resolve we possess, we still will find our strength is insufficient against the wiles of the devil. We are told that it is unto those who have no strength that He increases might. The only requirement? That we have become aware of it. 😊 blessings, Gideon
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 5, 2020 12:36:17 GMT -5
... "You are really and truly and completely free. There is no kicker. There is no if, and, or but. You are free. You can do it right or wrong. You can obey or disobey. You can run from Christ or run to Christ. You can choose to become a faithful Christian or an unfaithful Christian. You can cry, cuss, and spit, or laugh, sing, and dance. You can read a novel or the Bible. You can watch television or pray. You're free...really free."
Steve Brown, A Scandalous Freedom ... ❝...and then come and stand before Me in this house which is called
by My name, and say, ‘We are delivered to do all these abominations’?❞ - Jeremiah 7:10
❝What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!❞ - Romans 6:15
❝But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin,
yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.❞ - Romans 6:17-18
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