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Post by tlsitd on Jun 26, 2018 7:17:52 GMT -5
This is something that was on my mind this morning, and something that has bothered my spirit for a while. Christians throw around the term "false" to describe teachers or people who profess to have the gift of prophecy far too freely, without apparently either understanding what that term means or the seriousness of applying it to others.
According to the majority of Christians, apparently, anyone who teaches a false doctrine or who prophesies falsely is a false teacher or a false prophet. But this is simply not the appropriate use of those terms.
A false teacher is a person who is unsaved (not born again), who also teaches false doctrine for that reason.
A false prophet is a person who is unsaved (not born again), who may or may not accurately predict some future event. (Demons can predict the future too, to some degree, so the fact that someone makes an accurate prediction about something in the future does not make that person a true prophet. Both the Old and New Testament have warnings about people like this---who may in fact predict something that comes to pass, but their fruit, and what they are telling people to do, are not in agreement with the Spirit of God and His commandments.)
It's a very serious thing to accuse any Christian of being "false", and Christians who teach doctrine or who profess to have the prophetic gift are no exception. What you are in fact saying is that that person is not saved, whether you mean that by using the term "false" or not. It is not a term that should be casually applied to everyone who teaches something that isn't correct, or who claims to be a prophet but doesn't in fact have that gift.
Most Christians' teaching of doctrine is not 100% correct, and many may even be teaching a potentially deadly heresy, not knowing that that is what it is. They are not for that reason "false teachers", just misguided or deceived Christians who are teaching error because they don't know any better.
And there are plenty of Christians who believe that they have the prophetic gift but do not in fact have it. The fact that they are confused or deluded about this doesn't make them "false prophets", just confused and/or delusional.
So I just thought I would share this as a word of caution to people who may be liberally or casually applying those terms to people without understanding what they mean. You can say that a person teaches false doctrine. You can say that someone is a self-proclaimed or phony prophet. But don't call them "false" unless you are confident that they are spiritually unregenerate, because that is what that term actually means.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jun 26, 2018 8:10:34 GMT -5
This is the same view I share myself.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 26, 2018 13:44:31 GMT -5
Well good night . the list stayed the same . From benny hinn to copleand to rome , many aer NOT born again and teach lies . Thems men of belial. AND remember this . SATANS MINISTIRS can be transformed TO APPEAR as men OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. YEP them false ones all right .
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 26, 2018 14:32:34 GMT -5
Well good night . the list stayed the same . From benny hinn to copleand to rome , many aer NOT born again and teach lies . Thems men of belial. AND remember this . SATANS MINISTIRS can be transformed TO APPEAR as men OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. YEP them false ones all right . There are many who are not born again. If you consider that most of the people on earth who claim to be saved or call themselves Christians are not truly born again, then most of the preachers and teachers and prophets on earth are also false (not truly born again). (Matthew 7:21-23)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2018 7:19:03 GMT -5
LightShines, I would need to see scripture that shows they are only false if they were never born again. To my understanding if anyone has a following and are leading them astray into false gospels and an unholy life, then they are false, whether they are tares or genuine believers who went astray. They are tested in an overall way, under the new covenant, rather than by an occasional mistake or inaccurate prediction. As we know there are tares among the wheat, but also the potential always exists for genuine believers to go astray or fall away, teachers and prophets and pastors included. They can begin well, being born again and receiving genuine gifts/calling of the Spirit, but be led astray by their flesh and erroneous beliefs like anyone, and lead their followers astray at the same time. (Unless we believe in OSAS, which I don't think anyone here does.) Gifts/callings are given by the Lord without repentance, ie, the Lord does not take them away...if someone goes off track, they just continue on using their now-tainted gifts. I agree in a general way though, that we must not be presumptuous in how we deal with false leaders, though I'm not sure I know what that means exactly in the details.
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 27, 2018 8:42:17 GMT -5
LightShines, I would need to see scripture that shows they are only false if they were never born again. To my understanding if anyone has a following and are leading them astray into false gospels and an unholy life, then they are false, whether they are tares or genuine believers who went astray. They are tested in an overall way, under the new covenant, rather than by an occasional mistake or inaccurate prediction. As we know there are tares among the wheat, but also the potential always exists for genuine believers to go astray or fall away, teachers and prophets and pastors included. They can begin well, being born again and receiving genuine gifts/calling of the Spirit, but be led astray by their flesh and erroneous beliefs like anyone, and lead their followers astray at the same time. (Unless we believe in OSAS, which I don't think anyone here does.) Gifts/callings are given by the Lord without repentance, ie, the Lord does not take them away...if someone goes off track, they just continue on using their now-tainted gifts. I agree in a general way though, that we must not be presumptuous in how we deal with false leaders, though I'm not sure I know what that means exactly in the details. If you read the NT Scriptures that speak about false teachers, in Paul's epistles (such as 2 Corinthians and 2 Timothy), in 2 Peter, in 1 John and in Jude those who are referred to as false are unsaved people, whether they were ever born again in truth or whether they were at one point but later fell away and became "twice dead" (forfeited their eternal life through disobedience); and the reason why they are teaching the erroneous and damaging things they are teaching is because they do not have the Spirit of God in them. You can re-read the epistles where such people are discussed and see this for yourself. "Falseness" has to do with their spiritual condition, not just the fact that what they are teaching isn't correct. (There are a whole lot of Christian teachers who are ignorantly teaching things that are not correct---OSAS for example---but that doesn't make them false Christians. If the Holy Spirit lives in them, they are true Christians, even if their doctrine is off in some ways. They are Christians who teach false doctrine, but not false teachers.)
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jun 27, 2018 9:50:44 GMT -5
For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:4)
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:18-19)
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. (Romans 16:17-18)
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Peter 2)
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. (2 Corinthians 11:13)
Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. (Matthew 7:15)
A false prophet/teacher is a self-appointed expert who knowingly, deliberately sneaks into the church to subvert the gospel. Scripture is very consistent on this. They inherently do not believe the gospel, so eventually the mask will come off and they will teach outright heresy.
A new believer can tell the gospel to their friends -- a perfectly true and effective gospel -- without being an expert. The church in Corinth had people operating in the gifts while they were still asking questions about hairstyles. The church in Thessalonica sounded forth gospel truth while the people grew into full knowledge. The church in Ephesus earned praise from Jesus, even as He had aught against it.
To equivocate an immature believer in Corinth with the "twice dead" apostates from Jude is dangerous. When we attack Christian laborers with the "false prophet" label, we portray them as vicious deceivers, and we de-legitimize every valid salvation they may have brought into the kingdom. Not to mention the hurt feelings and mental torment when a sincere minister is abused by the very church he loves. It really hurts to see your name flung across the internet as an apostate ravenous wolf because someone disagrees with you on charismatic gifts. These things damage the church as a whole.
Yes Scripture tells us to rebuke when necessary, but there are twice as many verses that tell us to mind our own business.
I don't say this to attack anyone or speak down to them. People are free to believe what they wish. This is just my perspective.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 27, 2018 10:24:37 GMT -5
To equivocate an immature believer in Corinth with the "twice dead" apostates from Jude is dangerous. But it seems that some indeed were..."lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced." - 2 Corinthians 12:21 Others have repented, as it seems.
"Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance..." - 2 Corinthians 7:9
"For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." - 2 Corinthians 7:10
God bless you in Jesus' name!
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jun 27, 2018 10:34:35 GMT -5
In any group of people, you will find a mix of true and false. The challenge is to make sure that we don’t punish the true ones.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 27, 2018 10:48:52 GMT -5
In any group of people, you will find a mix of true and false. The challenge is to make sure that we don’t punish the true ones. I believe indeed you are a true one. You are loved, make no mistake!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 6:58:42 GMT -5
Just wanted to share a few more thoughts that might be useful concerning this topic. Jesus said the blind will lead the blind and both will fall into a ditch. So both false leaders and those who follow them are deceived. And there are two ditches on either side of the narrow path. There were two leavens in particular that Jesus highlighted we should beware of....the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod. We can look into this as deeply and in as much detail as we want, and anyone please feel free to show more characteristics of each one if you want, but mainly I believe the leaven of the Pharisees has to do with self-righteousness and the letter of the law which kills, bringing basically "correct" doctrine but in a wrong spirit that is not of faith.....while the leaven of Herod has to do with worldliness and licentiousness (and I think part of the worldliness has to do with being in bed with politics, or ends up there...since we understand Herod was in a state of compromise with the Romans and approved by them...he was their puppet). Anyone who is in either camp and leading others astray can be considered a false teacher/prophet/preacher, and warned against....since that is what Jesus did in warning against those two leavens, and naming them.
The false ones that are primarily being spoken of in Jude and 2Peter turn the grace of God into lasciviousness....so it seems that could be either the Pharisee types or the licentious types...since it has to do with running after money and ambition. They are compared to the angels that fell, because like those angels, these ones also fell and this is why they are twice dead....where in 2Peter it mentions dogs returning to their vomit and again entangled and overcome with their end worse than their beginning. They are also compared to the prophet Balaam...who was a genuine prophet since he did hear genuinely from the Lord but went astray after worldly rewards. So this is why I believe most false teachers/prophets are deceived and self-deceived....they did once start out well but went astray. And it is a warning to us all in this respect since anyone can potentially do the same. Some false ones may be tares, since we know they exist in the Body of Christ..but it does seem that Peter and Jude are mainly talking about those who fell...and it is one reason why they are so deceptive and dangerous...they have some true concepts that ends up as bait for the unwary...and they slowly lead the flock in the same wrong direction they themselves are going in as they fall away and wax worse.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 29, 2018 10:04:31 GMT -5
Just wanted to share a few more thoughts that might be useful concerning this topic. Jesus said the blind will lead the blind and both will fall into a ditch. So both false leaders and those who follow them are deceived. And there are two ditches on either side of the narrow path. There were two leavens in particular that Jesus highlighted we should beware of....the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod. We can look into this as deeply and in as much detail as we want, and anyone please feel free to show more characteristics of each one if you want, but mainly I believe the leaven of the Pharisees has to do with self-righteousness and the letter of the law which kills, bringing basically "correct" doctrine but in a wrong spirit that is not of faith.....while the leaven of Herod has to do with worldliness and licentiousness (and I think part of the worldliness has to do with being in bed with politics, or ends up there...since we understand Herod was in a state of compromise with the Romans and approved by them...he was their puppet). Anyone who is in either camp and leading others astray can be considered a false teacher/prophet/preacher, and warned against....since that is what Jesus did in warning against those two leavens, and naming them. The false ones that are primarily being spoken of in Jude and 2Peter turn the grace of God into lasciviousness....so it seems that could be either the Pharisee types or the licentious types...since it has to do with running after money and ambition. They are compared to the angels that fell, because like those angels, these ones also fell and this is why they are twice dead....where in 2Peter it mentions dogs returning to their vomit and again entangled and overcome with their end worse than their beginning. They are also compared to the prophet Balaam...who was a genuine prophet since he did hear genuinely from the Lord but went astray after worldly rewards. So this is why I believe most false teachers/prophets are deceived and self-deceived....they did once start out well but went astray. And it is a warning to us all in this respect since anyone can potentially do the same. Some false ones may be tares, since we know they exist in the Body of Christ..but it does seem that Peter and Jude are mainly talking about those who fell...and it is one reason why they are so deceptive and dangerous...they have some true concepts that ends up as bait for the unwary...and they slowly lead the flock in the same wrong direction they themselves are going in as they fall away and wax worse. I believe a pharisee spirit is one that do not walk by faith, as you have said... They follow the letter, and not the Spirit; judge according to the flesh and not righteous judgment.
This leads to hypocritical and contradictory behavior, which is common in those who walk according to flesh and not according to the Spirit.
They seek their own glory, they prefer the glory of men than the glory of God... They want to be praised and revered by men.
Pretending to be clean but their hearts are full of all uncleanness, which is clearly seen by how they behave and say.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 10:38:18 GMT -5
Amen 2fw...and ones like that are false teachers/prophets just as much as those who turn the grace of God into a license to sin. Paul warned against those who were trying to bring people back under the law (letter than kills) for instance in other scriptures.
And also, speaking of believers in general, any believer can have a range or mixture of either kind of leaven, it isn't all necessarily an extreme case of one or the other....so it is for all of us to examine our hearts...there can be a Pharisee living in the flesh of all, just as there can be licentiousness in our flesh...to whatever extent we may still have either, as we grow and mature being shaped on the Potter's wheel, dying to self etc. All these wayward ways are of the flesh, as I'm sure we all agree.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 29, 2018 10:54:02 GMT -5
Amen 2fw...and ones like that are false teachers/prophets just as much as those who turn the grace of God into a license to sin. Paul warned against those who were trying to bring people back under the law (letter than kills) for instance in other scriptures. And also, speaking of believers in general, any believer can have a range or mixture of either kind of leaven, it isn't all necessarily an extreme case of one or the other....so it is for all of us to examine our hearts...there can be a Pharisee living in the flesh of all, just as there can be licentiousness in our flesh...to whatever extent we may still have either, as we grow and mature being shaped on the Potter's wheel, dying to self etc. All these wayward ways are of the flesh, as I'm sure we all agree. Exactly. A good reminder is this:
"...Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." - John 3:5
"...Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:3
Those who do not submit to the Spirit and follows the letter will try to justify themselves by the letter.
When the letter condemns them, they will seek a "spiritual" interpretation... And when a Spiritual interpretation condemns them, they will follow the letter.
The result is self-righteousness, justifying themselves instead of renewing their minds and bring it to submission to the Spirit.
"Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?" - Hebrews 12:9
"John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." - Acts 19:4
"I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." - Luke 3:16
"But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him." - Luke 7:30
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:21-23Glory to God! Amen.
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 29, 2018 10:56:54 GMT -5
Just wanted to share a few more thoughts that might be useful concerning this topic. Jesus said the blind will lead the blind and both will fall into a ditch. So both false leaders and those who follow them are deceived. And there are two ditches on either side of the narrow path. There were two leavens in particular that Jesus highlighted we should beware of....the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod. We can look into this as deeply and in as much detail as we want, and anyone please feel free to show more characteristics of each one if you want, but mainly I believe the leaven of the Pharisees has to do with self-righteousness and the letter of the law which kills, bringing basically "correct" doctrine but in a wrong spirit that is not of faith.....while the leaven of Herod has to do with worldliness and licentiousness (and I think part of the worldliness has to do with being in bed with politics, or ends up there...since we understand Herod was in a state of compromise with the Romans and approved by them...he was their puppet). Anyone who is in either camp and leading others astray can be considered a false teacher/prophet/preacher, and warned against....since that is what Jesus did in warning against those two leavens, and naming them. The false ones that are primarily being spoken of in Jude and 2Peter turn the grace of God into lasciviousness....so it seems that could be either the Pharisee types or the licentious types...since it has to do with running after money and ambition. They are compared to the angels that fell, because like those angels, these ones also fell and this is why they are twice dead....where in 2Peter it mentions dogs returning to their vomit and again entangled and overcome with their end worse than their beginning. They are also compared to the prophet Balaam...who was a genuine prophet since he did hear genuinely from the Lord but went astray after worldly rewards. So this is why I believe most false teachers/prophets are deceived and self-deceived....they did once start out well but went astray. And it is a warning to us all in this respect since anyone can potentially do the same. Some false ones may be tares, since we know they exist in the Body of Christ..but it does seem that Peter and Jude are mainly talking about those who fell...and it is one reason why they are so deceptive and dangerous...they have some true concepts that ends up as bait for the unwary...and they slowly lead the flock in the same wrong direction they themselves are going in as they fall away and wax worse. Yes, you are right about the two kinds of leaven being the self-righteous, hypocritical, religious sort and the worldly, carnal, lascivious sort, and about Peter's and Jude's epistles addressing false teachers who had been Christians but had become false (forfeited their salvation) through sin and were teaching false doctrine. Some false teachers (unsaved people who teach false doctrine) never were actually born again; some become false by forfeiting their eternal life after being born again---the Holy Spirit departs from them, leaving them "twice dead". In either case, they are false (unsaved). But as I said, we should be careful about assuming---and especially declaring---that a professing Christian is not actually born again just because they teach a doctrine we believe or know to be incorrect, because most Christians do teach at least a few things that aren't correct. Some false teachings are more serious than others. And we must also consider a person's fruit, because as 2 Peter and Jude, and also Paul, and Jesus Himself said, a bad tree bears bad fruit. Even if the person teaches correct doctrine, or predicts some future event accurately, that doesn't necessarily mean that that person is born again, just as the fact that a Christian teaches some incorrect doctrine or incorrectly predicts some future event doesn't necessarily mean that the person is not born again. That's an extremely serious accusation, and not one that should be made carelessly. It would be wiser and safer, unless you are quite convinced of the fact, to call a professing Christian a teacher of false doctrine, rather than a false teacher. Christians who become false---that is, who forfeit their salvation and no longer have Christ in them (be they teachers or otherwise)---do so by persisting in willful sin, despite the discipline of the Lord. Some go after money or power; some are just proud, stubbornly rebellious people who resist God's authority over their lives and want to be the master of their own life and to do their own will rather than be submitted to Him and do His will. It's all about personal choices. There's always grace available to us to repent of evil attitudes or behaviors and to be obedient to the Lord in all things, but God leaves the choice of submitting ourselves to Him up to us, on a daily basis. And if we choose to entertain evil attitudes, accommodate evil lusts, and to make excuses for and try to cover up our sins instead of confessing and turning away from them, they will be a snare to our souls---leading us into more and deeper sin (as well as deception of various kinds), and making us increasingly callous and indifferent to the promptings and conviction of the Holy Spirit. If we despise the word of God, and despise the chastening of the Lord, we put ourselves in danger of the ultimate punishment---being broken off of Jesus Christ and left desolate. A twice-dead, ex-Christian may continue doing Christian things, just like many unsaved professing Christians throughout the world do---reading the Bible, going to church, preaching, praying, doing various charitable deeds, and engaging in Christian activities of sorts (having a reputation of being alive, even though they are really dead). But their fruit will bear witness to their spiritual deadness; and their teaching, if they are teachers, will probably reflect the same--- 'having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof (grace) ' by their fruit. A twice dead sheep has the same desires and attitudes as someone who has never known God, and is under the power of the rulers of this world, to do their will, just like all unsaved people are.
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