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Post by PG4Him on Jan 27, 2021 9:07:37 GMT -5
2Ti 4:8 (8) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. This is what Paul wrote to Timothy, and of course it is written for us. And some refer this appearing to either the second coming or the rapture of the church, or even the judgment seat of Christ, which some say happens at the appearing of his second coming somehow, but nevertheless, Paul was saying for us and Timothy to love his appearing, and even though Christ's appearing did not happen, and was not going to happen in Timothy's time, the believers of that day were called to love, love, love his appearing. And let us continue to love his appearing. And one scripture that really has to also be taken heed to, is this one: 2Pe 3:3-9 (3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:(7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. And regardless to what specific coming the Peter scripture is referring to, let us look towards Christ coming back, whether it be the second coming or rapture, or even when he makes all things new at the end of the millennial reign. God is worth getting excited for, for he is our life. Of course Christians love His appearing. Every Christian I know would love nothing more than to see Him in the sky this very day. And none of us are asking "where is His return" in a mocking or skeptical way. Peter was dealing with scoffers and worldlings, not with believers who tried to be careful. You'll notice that the apostles never offered political or cultural evidence to convince the early church it was imminent. Peter never said, "okay Nero signs this policy and the banks do this and the army from Gaul invades, and that's how it will happen..." Furthermore Peter never said, "I just can't see us being here another 50 years." The apostles held to a simple position: He is near, He could act any moment, but we don't know what the trigger will be. And even when Paul wrote to Thessalonica about his teachings on the antichrist, even for them, he still instructed them to live quiet lives, work with their hands, and need nothing from their neighbors. Sure sounds like he's telling them to settle in for a normal life while they wait. He never instructed them to read the latest political news from Rome so they could guess the time of the end. |
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At hand
Jan 27, 2021 9:11:18 GMT -5
Post by PG4Him on Jan 27, 2021 9:11:18 GMT -5
To me, it is in the way you say something. If you state as a fact that Jesus must return by 2068 or he cannot come back for at least 100 years, that is problematic, but if you make it clear it is just an opinion, I see no issues with that. Well, for me, here's the issue why the opinions matter: it shows that these people are not rightly dividing the word. If they're not willing to learn a fundamental lesson on why they guess wrong, they will keep guessing wrong. An apology is a great start, but then that apology should be followed up with a re-assessment of their Bible study methods. |
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At hand
Jan 27, 2021 10:05:58 GMT -5
Post by John on Jan 27, 2021 10:05:58 GMT -5
To me, it is in the way you say something. If you state as a fact that Jesus must return by 2068 or he cannot come back for at least 100 years, that is problematic, but if you make it clear it is just an opinion, I see no issues with that. Well, for me, here's the issue why the opinions matter: it shows that these people are not rightly dividing the word. If they're not willing to learn a fundamental lesson on why they guess wrong, they will keep guessing wrong. An apology is a great start, but then that apology should be followed up with a re-assessment of their Bible study methods.
I do not think there is any Bible study method that has ever existed that can be proven 100 percent reliable. The Bible itself does not give us a method, other than being led into all truth by the Holy Spirit as we rightly divide the Word of truth. What is rightly dividing to one will differ from what is rightly dividing to another.
Let us take a look at this issue of knowing when Jesus will return. Is it possible that we will find the answer to that question through any study method, when Jesus never told us? All he said was no man knows the day or the hour. Only the Father knows, so the way I see it, if there is a problem, it is anyone who is trying to find ways around what Jesus plainly said. We were given signs to look for, and when people see things that are taking place, they try to line it up with those signs. That is not a prophet but a futurist. It is just someone making educated guesses.
It can be frustrating when people place too much faith in these things, but why would they? Even the guy that gave us 88 reasons Jesus would return in 1988 could not say conclusively he was right. He just gave us 88 reasons he believed it would happen that year. Why would his being wrong destroy anyone's faith, when Jesus never said it? It is like with the modern day prophets making outright wrong predictions. Those are the words of men and women, not God. Why would that shake anyone's faith when they get something wrong? I just shrug it off, mark them, and move on. Since it is unlikely anyone will stop making predictions, it would be easier to get people to stop placing their trust in men and women and put their trust in God.
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 27, 2021 10:08:10 GMT -5
Another reason why this issue matters is peer pressure. Prophets who predict long-term events are routinely rebuked by the majority in the church. There was one prophet I saw in a video, he was talking about how he predicted Bush Jr in the White House back in the 1990s. But the "consensus" at the time was that the rapture would occur on Y2K. So he was rebuked for deceiving people not to prepare for the rapture. The rebukes were so bad that he stopped trying to tell people what he heard from the Lord.
I've actually heard that from more than one person. Kicked out of churches for prophesying things that went against the mighty John Hagee.
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At hand
Jan 27, 2021 10:14:41 GMT -5
Post by John on Jan 27, 2021 10:14:41 GMT -5
2Ti 4:8 (8) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. This is what Paul wrote to Timothy, and of course it is written for us. And some refer this appearing to either the second coming or the rapture of the church, or even the judgment seat of Christ, which some say happens at the appearing of his second coming somehow, but nevertheless, Paul was saying for us and Timothy to love his appearing, and even though Christ's appearing did not happen, and was not going to happen in Timothy's time, the believers of that day were called to love, love, love his appearing. And let us continue to love his appearing. And one scripture that really has to also be taken heed to, is this one: 2Pe 3:3-9 (3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:(7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. And regardless to what specific coming the Peter scripture is referring to, let us look towards Christ coming back, whether it be the second coming or rapture, or even when he makes all things new at the end of the millennial reign. God is worth getting excited for, for he is our life. Of course Christians love His appearing. Every Christian I know would love nothing more than to see Him in the sky this very day. And none of us are asking "where is His return" in a mocking or skeptical way. Peter was dealing with scoffers and worldlings, not with believers who tried to be careful. You'll notice that the apostles never offered political or cultural evidence to convince the early church it was imminent. Peter never said, "okay Nero signs this policy and the banks do this and the army from Gaul invades, and that's how it will happen..." Furthermore Peter never said, "I just can't see us being here another 50 years." The apostles held to a simple position: He is near, He could act any moment, but we don't know what the trigger will be. And even when Paul wrote to Thessalonica about his teachings on the antichrist, even for them, he still instructed them to live quiet lives, work with their hands, and need nothing from their neighbors. Sure sounds like he's telling them to settle in for a normal life while they wait. He never instructed them to read the latest political news from Rome so they could guess the time of the end.
In that post you wrote in the This And That thread, you said "We're nowhere near the antichrist endgame. It's likely another hundred years off." After saying that, you gave reasons for this belief based on things taking place in the world. How is that different than saying I would be surprised if the tribulation does not begin within the next decade or two? We are both looking at current conditions, assessing what we see taking place, and making an educated guess about when Bible prophecy will be fulfilled. It comes across to me that you think it will be further off than many of us believe it will be. I do not fault you for that, but you were clearly making guesses based on what you see happening.
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Post by John on Jan 27, 2021 10:17:01 GMT -5
Another reason why this issue matters is peer pressure. Prophets who predict long-term events are routinely rebuked by the majority in the church. There was one prophet I saw in a video, he was talking about how he predicted Bush Jr in the White House back in the 1990s. But the "consensus" at the time was that the rapture would occur on Y2K. So he was rebuked for deceiving people not to prepare for the rapture. The rebukes were so bad that he stopped trying to tell people what he heard from the Lord. I've actually heard that from more than one person. Kicked out of churches for prophesying things that went against the mighty John Hagee.
That is different. Now you are talking about people who claim to be prophets. They do not rightly divide anything, but they speak what they believe. Where do the beliefs come from? God? Only if they are 100 percent accurate. More than likely, out of their own heads or they are hearing from lying spirits, and they believe it is God.
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At hand
Jan 27, 2021 10:21:08 GMT -5
Post by John on Jan 27, 2021 10:21:08 GMT -5
I have seen people leave the faith, and claim that they did so because of things preachers did. The ministers were all sold out to one doctrine and then did an about face. God did nothing wrong, but based on a man, they say they left the faith. This happens over prophecies that were wrong too, but I do not really believe anyone leaves God for those reasons. I think they are just excuses. A real Christian has a relationship with the Lord, and they would not abandon Him if they really knew Him because of what men and women representing Him do. There is more than that going on. They want to return to sin or they have something to gain by leaving the faith, but I do not believe it is just over things men did wrong.
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At hand
Jan 27, 2021 10:22:13 GMT -5
Post by PG4Him on Jan 27, 2021 10:22:13 GMT -5
It can be frustrating when people place too much faith in these things, but why would they? Even the guy that gave us 88 reasons Jesus would return in 1988 could not say conclusively he was right. He just gave us 88 reasons he believed it would happen that year. Why would his being wrong destroy anyone's faith, when Jesus never said it? It is like with the modern day prophets making outright wrong predictions. Those are the words of men and women, not God. Why would that shake anyone's faith when they get something wrong? I just shrug it off, mark them, and move on. Since it is unlikely anyone will stop making predictions, it would be easier to get people to stop placing their trust in men and women and put their trust in God. Well here's the thing. You may shrug it off, but there are many sheep, often of the babe variety, who don't. And honestly shepherds can't have it both ways. Jesus did say there are consequences for one who makes a little one stumble. He didn't say it's not the guy's problem because the little one should have known better. James said teachers face more severe judgment -- and he didn't advise them to couch all their teachings as "opinions" so they have a loophole when they're wrong. You get up on a stage and tell people things you're expecting them to believe, you're putting your butt on the line. There's no point in having shepherds or teachers in the church if they're all just giving opinions with no follow up, no accountability, and maybe a few apologies when they royally get it wrong. And the sheep are supposed to know that this is the game, and it's their fault if they stupidly believe what their pastor teaches in a classroom. Yeah they should have known better than to attend Sunday school and believe their pastor. And it's okay for the church to waste everyone's time printing book after book, making video after video, about useless theories and false predictions. I just don't get it. Maybe there's something wrong with me. |
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At hand
Jan 27, 2021 10:25:34 GMT -5
Post by watchful on Jan 27, 2021 10:25:34 GMT -5
The beast system is building fast . I'm not convinced that half the population of the USA is going to just roll over and play dead now while this gets perpetrated on them though. The past four years may have only served to draw the battle lines in the sand. You know what brother, a couple of days ago I finally found my journal that I had misplaced after we moved for the last three years or more, where I had written out what God had first unctioned me about Trump in Sept. of 2016. Right underneath that I also wrote out a little insight regarding Jacob, which I had completely forgotten about. Can't tell if I was connecting it to the American situation at the time, in what I wrote. Jacob's past sins were catching up with him...he was having to face Esau, and it caused him to split his family into two. His wrestling with the angel of the Lord was essentially Jacob fighting against God's judgment in order to get hold of His MERCY. Mercy triumphs over judgment. However things end up with America when this battle is over, I am doubly sure now that the Lord wants us as believers to at least have that same mindset that Jacob had and not give up. He is a God who even in wrath remembers mercy. I hope some will find that encouraging. Not in the way of having false hopes, because God doesn't always do things the way we think or might like, but to strengthen us in our hearts and encourage us to keep praying for America, for the souls that live there. My own opinion is that I believe chastisements in some form can't be avoided at some point, just because they are needed for the good of a church that has grown too comfortable. He chastises who He LOVES. The Lord says in His word that He will remove His sheep from out of the mouths of the wolves.....something needs to happen for that to take place, and I dont' think it would take long for people to start waking up and digging in their bibles and looking to the Lord for hope and help if life circumstances become more challenging. |
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At hand
Jan 27, 2021 10:35:11 GMT -5
Post by PG4Him on Jan 27, 2021 10:35:11 GMT -5
In that post you wrote in the This And That thread, you said "We're nowhere near the antichrist endgame. It's likely another hundred years off." After saying that, you gave reasons for this belief based on things taking place in the world. How is that different than saying I would be surprised if the tribulation does not begin within the next decade or two? We are both looking at current conditions, assessing what we see taking place, and making an educated guess about when Bible prophecy will be fulfilled. It comes across to me that you think it will be further off than many of us believe it will be. I do not fault you for that, but you were clearly making guesses based on what you see happening. In the face of an overwhelming consensus that the end is here, I tried to offer some reasons to see it differently. If someone wanted to question the popular narrative, they can just as quickly make a case for another hundred years. That was my point. People say the evidence is conclusively lined up, the signs are glaringly obvious, and there's no good reason to expect more time, unless you're a scoffer who wants to live in the world. So I tried to show how someone could reach a conclusion that it's not so simple. People have reasons for not thinking this is the end. And the reason isn't always that they stopped believing or they lost their faith or they're mocking the Lord. You don't have to be an apostate to think we have more time. But the general mood in the church is to treat you that way. I've seen the eye rolls, the glances, the judgmental reactions, when I say I'm not expecting a rapture next week. The automatic reaction from most is to say I'm a lukewarm worldling who can't see it coming because I'm not in prayer. And I resent that. No, you haven't treated me that way, but many do. Really I'd rather not discuss it at all. I'd rather just live day to day, one foot in front of the other, as we all work together for the good of the church. But I've learned that's a pipe dream. |
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Post by John on Jan 27, 2021 10:57:13 GMT -5
In that post you wrote in the This And That thread, you said "We're nowhere near the antichrist endgame. It's likely another hundred years off." After saying that, you gave reasons for this belief based on things taking place in the world. How is that different than saying I would be surprised if the tribulation does not begin within the next decade or two? We are both looking at current conditions, assessing what we see taking place, and making an educated guess about when Bible prophecy will be fulfilled. It comes across to me that you think it will be further off than many of us believe it will be. I do not fault you for that, but you were clearly making guesses based on what you see happening. In the face of an overwhelming consensus that the end is here, I tried to offer some reasons to see it differently. If someone wanted to question the popular narrative, they can just as quickly make a case for another hundred years. That was my point. People say the evidence is conclusively lined up, the signs are glaringly obvious, and there's no good reason to expect more time, unless you're a scoffer who wants to live in the world. So I tried to show how someone could reach a conclusion that it's not so simple. People have reasons for not thinking this is the end. And the reason isn't always that they stopped believing or they lost their faith or they're mocking the Lord. You don't have to be an apostate to think we have more time. But the general mood in the church is to treat you that way. I've seen the eye rolls, the glances, the judgmental reactions, when I say I'm not expecting a rapture next week. The automatic reaction from most is to say I'm a lukewarm worldling who can't see it coming because I'm not in prayer. And I resent that. No, you haven't treated me that way, but many do. Really I'd rather not discuss it at all. I'd rather just live day to day, one foot in front of the other, as we all work together for the good of the church. But I've learned that's a pipe dream.
You made a lot of good points about the danger of date setting. If it is a problem to think the end is at hand, is it better to think it is far off? If we are going to be consistent, we should not go further than scripture on anything, and if that is your point, you are probably right. What I am feeling is frustration others see things so different from you, and are disrespectful.
There is this desire in mankind to have secret insight, so books about end times are best sellers. People are being taught their thoughts are God speaking. They cannot be other voices, and they start to believe it. You have given me much to consider.
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Post by John on Jan 27, 2021 11:11:34 GMT -5
It can be frustrating when people place too much faith in these things, but why would they? Even the guy that gave us 88 reasons Jesus would return in 1988 could not say conclusively he was right. He just gave us 88 reasons he believed it would happen that year. Why would his being wrong destroy anyone's faith, when Jesus never said it? It is like with the modern day prophets making outright wrong predictions. Those are the words of men and women, not God. Why would that shake anyone's faith when they get something wrong? I just shrug it off, mark them, and move on. Since it is unlikely anyone will stop making predictions, it would be easier to get people to stop placing their trust in men and women and put their trust in God. Well here's the thing. You may shrug it off, but there are many sheep, often of the babe variety, who don't. And honestly shepherds can't have it both ways. Jesus did say there are consequences for one who makes a little one stumble. He didn't say it's not the guy's problem because the little one should have known better. James said teachers face more severe judgment -- and he didn't advise them to couch all their teachings as "opinions" so they have a loophole when they're wrong. You get up on a stage and tell people things you're expecting them to believe, you're putting your butt on the line. There's no point in having shepherds or teachers in the church if they're all just giving opinions with no follow up, no accountability, and maybe a few apologies when they royally get it wrong. And the sheep are supposed to know that this is the game, and it's their fault if they stupidly believe what their pastor teaches in a classroom. Yeah they should have known better than to attend Sunday school and believe their pastor. And it's okay for the church to waste everyone's time printing book after book, making video after video, about useless theories and false predictions. I just don't get it. Maybe there's something wrong with me.
I just think you are frustrated that people in ministry are so imperfect. They should not be. They should never get the Bible wrong, but that is not possible. I used to put Pastors on a pedestal early on, but I still knew they would make mistakes, and the Bible was my final authority. Even then, I did not agree with the Pastor on everything. He could become an apostate, and I still trusted God. I never understood people thinking any human being is without flaws, no matter how much they study. I only expect them to do their best and be more right than wrong. Of course, if we are talking about major issues, that is different. They must believe the basics of the gospel or I will not listen to them at all.
Here is how I approach these prophets and teachers. I will watch them and listen to what they say with a grain of salt. I will sit back and watch to see if their words are correct. If not, I stop listening to them and move on. I cross them off. If it is a Pastor or Evangelist, I do not expect that much. I just expect to know they are right on the main things, and then I consider what they say in light of scripture. I never take anything any person says as absolute truth. I read very few books outside of the Bible. I might read something about the Bible if it could add insight, but even then, I do not take it as absolute truth.
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 27, 2021 11:31:01 GMT -5
As long as my position is fairly considered, and not used against me as evidence of worldliness, then I'm happy.
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Post by John on Jan 27, 2021 11:35:35 GMT -5
As long as my position is fairly considered, and not used against me as evidence of worldliness, then I'm happy.
I have never looked at you as worldly, and always take your opinions serious.
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 27, 2021 11:48:27 GMT -5
Let me add one more thing. I absolutely do know beyond any shadow of doubt that Jesus is preparing for His bride. The one and only vision I've had of Him directly in real life color -- I was standing right in front of Him -- showed Him starting to set up the feast. I was among a group of people (saints) laboring to prepare for the party. It was early evening, around 4:30 or so, and He was just beginning to prep the food. I remember seeing evening sunlight through the windows in His palace.
I've had other visions that involved Him. But that was the only time I saw Him in the center of my view.
Every time I think of that vision, it gives me joy and peace. Yes, I am excited for that supper. Every day I ask the Lord if He'll let me leave now. My yearning to be there is as strong as anybody's.
But here I still am, so I live each day, hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.
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