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Post by Giller on Feb 1, 2021 18:32:41 GMT -5
I had a thought this morning, concerning the Revelations verse, which is something I already knew: Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Time means 1 here, times means 2 here, and half a time, means 1/2, you put them together, you get 3 1/2 years. So times, in some cases (not all cases) can mean 2. There is never a coincidence about how words are written in the bible, even when it is plural vs singular. It does seem to mean three and one half years . cause even in the earlier part it talks about the prophesying for twelve hundred and sixty days . Which is three and one half years . I notice that also in the days of elijah or elisha , think it was elisha , that the heavens were sealed up for three and one half years . Hi brotha Frienduff, God bless. I mentioned in this thread, how I checked out various words, such as I believe it was: latter days, last days, last day; and these 3 sayings, are mentioned many times in the bible, but when you just put the word latter, with either the word time, or times, these sayings only appear 1 time each. Now the word times, appears many times, but not the phrases: "latter times" (plural) and "latter time" (singular), they only appear 1 time each. There must be a reason for this, and God always has his reasons. And I mention above, concerning Revelation 12:14, that the word times, in that scripture means 2. So here is the scripture that mentions, the words: " latter time" in singular: Dan 8:20-23 (20) The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. (21) And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. (22) Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. (23) And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. So the ram pointed to the kings of Media and Persia, which formed the Persian empire, and the rough goat, points to the king of Grecia, which what was formed was the Grecian empire. When the Grecian empire was formed, it eventually was broken in 4, and four kingdoms stood up out of the nation. And then we get to verse 23, which mentions the latter time, singular, of their kingdom, and in this latter time of their kingdom, this king of a fierce countenance stands up. So it brings you from the times of Cyrus (Persian king), and Alexander the Great (Grecian king) etc, to this latter time singular, of their kingdom, and this king of fierce countenance, refers to the Antichrist. So these rulers of the past had kingdoms, of their own, and formed empires, and then there is the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, which points to the time of the Antichrist, which in his time, shall the second coming take place. But now let us get to the only scripture that mentions the saying: "latter times" plural. 1Ti 4:1 (1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; There is no doubt that this does refer to our times, that is the departing of the faith in our times, but does the saying "latter times", refer to 2 time periods? Could it refer t the time of the apostasy that took place in Constantine's day, and what is happening in our days? I know concerning the day of Pentecost, it says this: Act 2:16-17 (16) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: This prophecy began with the day of Pentecost, and I believe will continue even unto the great and terrible day of the Lord (second coming), and it calls the time of Pentecost in the book of Acts, the last days, or you can call it the beginning part of the last days. So it is possible that the saying "latter times" plural could refer to 2 time periods, to a latter time, that would come to pass in Constantine's day, and to a latter time (the later of the latter times), that has come to pass in our day. 2 great apostasy's ? |
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Feb 1, 2021 19:17:16 GMT -5
the church is not a "he"... its a she.... the bride of Christ. That is exactly what I said, here is the quote:" It talks about the church meeting Christ in the air here, so that is a type of being taken out of the way, but the thing we have to realize is that, the church is not referred to as an "he" in the bible, but rather as a "she", for we are the bride of Christ." I do not know how people are reading what I am saying, they must be skipping some stuff. In what I said above, I disprove that he who letteth, is the church. i was just laying my two cents down concerning the theories. i wrote more but deleted it. i was basiclly agreeing with you.
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Post by watchful on Feb 1, 2021 20:02:32 GMT -5
They did know back then what was restraining, because Paul had told them. "And now ye know..." But I think it's worth considering whether we can expect to be seeing more than one fulfillment, or partial fulfillments to be precise. Perhaps the prophecies are speaking in spirit and were foretelling and showing a pattern and characteristics of things to come, up to and including the final act of the play, which of course will bring about the conclusion that previous fulfillments did not. (The Lord has been soooo longsuffering, willing that none perish, tarrying and tarrying in face of so many gross and twisted perversions, abuses and abominations of the true faith.) All those who claimed Christ and fell under Rome's sway at the time of Constantine, had for sure been seduced to fall away from the true faith, pure doctrine and simplicity of Christ (except for a remnant who were persecuted). There are many antichrists but the Papacy was the chief, most prominent antichrist of that era, and who had a global reach in terms of being the dominant kingdom/culture and religion of the entire 'civilized' world. It appears that the last Antichrist will involve Jerusalem rather than Rome, so that is something to watch for. Now ye know does refer to the falling away, but the he who letteth, is said differently than that which withholdeth. 2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. It says: " What withholdeth" and not " he who now letteth". 2Th 2:7 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And the falling away can be referred to as what, but it cannot be referred to as an " he". For the falling away is neither an " he" or a " she". So it is talking about 2 different things, one referred to as a " what", and one referred to as an " he". So who is this he? Looking up the Greek word that was translated into "withholdeth", I found that it's the exact same Greek word that was translated into "letteth". I don't know why the translators would have translated that same Greek word into two different English words though. Myself I believe Paul was probably referring to himself and his ministry at that time. I can't prove it though brother, and it may not be right, but I can only say that to me, it seems to click, and as well it's the simplest explanation. |
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Post by John on Feb 2, 2021 19:08:39 GMT -5
Read 2 posts down, on the post entitled falling away, I believe you guys will like it. frienduff John
Okay Giller. I have not had time to be online since you started this, and I have not read any of it yet, so I need to catch up on my reading. It looks interesting, and I appreciate all the hard work you have put into it, like you do in all of your threads.
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Post by John on Feb 2, 2021 19:27:13 GMT -5
2Th 2:1-2 (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. So Paul here was exhorting the Thessalonians to not be shaken in mind, and so on, as that the day of Christ is at hand, because at this time, the day of Christ, was not at hand, there were things that had to first take place, and our next scripture answers what had to take place: 2Th 2:3 (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; See the bible answers itself, we do not need to guess. So the second coming of Christ, would only be at hand, once these 2 things take place, which was the falling away, and the revealing of the man of sin, the Antichrist. There is nothing complicated about this. And the right way to receive prophecy is not by being troubled by it, but to rejoice that the Lord is coming soon, Christians should not be troubled by it, which of course it will be troublesome for the world, and we want to see people saved. God wants us to trust him, regardless to the events, but at the same time he wants us to believe that what he said will come to pass will come to pass, God is glorified when we trust him and believe him and of course lovingly obey him. We know that if the falling away is here, then that is an indication that the second coming is near, and of course one more sign that the second coming is near, in this scripture, is the revealing of the Antichrist. Sometimes we seek for some very complicated revelation, but it does not have to be complicated, just receive it as a child.
I am in the process of reading through this thread right now, and I definitely see a falling away, but something came to my mind when I was considering this the other day, so I want to run it past you. While I do see a falling away, it is not the only time we have had a falling away. We went through a very long time when the church was completely dominated by the RCC, which was a very definite falling away. We have seen revivals and the people falling away afterward, followed by a new revival and another falling away. My question to you is this. Do you see something different about the falling away that is happening now, as opposed to when the church fell away in the past? I cannot say that I do, because I know that in times past, the church has been even worse than it is now. For me, I am taking notice of other things like the major increase in knowledge and technology, Israel being re-born and what looks like we are on the verge of a global economic collapse.
I am just desiring your opinion about this falling away because there may be something obvious to you I am not seeing. I am by no means arguing about the time we are in. I can look at the world conditions, and they look bleak. Still, I am wondering if there is something about the condition of the church today that is different from times past, perhaps even worse? What do you think?
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Post by John on Feb 2, 2021 19:38:01 GMT -5
There are plenty of signs. Just that, as for me, I am keeping a tiny reservation on whether this is the final round, reserving judgment so to speak, since I’m not God, and Jesus said only the Father knows for sure. There have been end time signs before, and I consider that it’s important to remain in the same spirit as the scriptures with these things, which I just understand is not the same mind as Harold Camping and plenty of others before him. On another note, it’s possible Paul was simply referring to himself as the one restraining the false antichrist spirit in the church of that time. “Remember when I was with you and told you these things….” “And now you know…” In his mind he wasn’t writing a bible per se, he was just writing a letter to the church of his time as far as he was concerned…..I wonder if it could be that our minds have been casting around for something of epic biblical proportions when maybe the truth is simpler. We know from the epistles that the spirit of antichrist was constantly trying to get a foothold in the church and that Paul was constantly fighting to keep it out. And alas he even said that when he departs wolves (antichrists) WOULD come in and devour the flock, and so they did…..and as Giller is talking about this, it eventually culminated in the falling away that occurred when Constantine institutionalized the faith, and persecuted the remnant of those who would not bow down to his false antichrist version of it….terrible tribulation. I believe the Papal church is what was being specifically prophesied in 2 Thess. 2 (church is the temple, symbolically). But it started with smaller antichrists/wolves leading to that papal Antichrist being installed in the temple/church. Talk about end time signs in those days, and yet it didn’t all end there. Always remember Watchful that this restraining stuff restrains or withholds, unto the time that the Antichrist is on the scene and gets revealed, and the second coming is near to come to pass, so it was not referring to Paul at all. Paul mentioned what was withholding, there is no guessing needed, and he said that a falling away had to first come, and that answer, which is plainly said in the bible, is good enough for me.
I understand much of what you are saying, but I do not see how the falling away is what is withholding end time events from taking place. The falling away is a sign, not a restrainer. You could make the argument that the church is the restrainer, and it is withholding things from occurring till they be taken out of the way because they became apostate, but that does not really make sense to me either. I have always taken the restrainer to be the church, and them being taken out of the way as being the rapture.
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Post by John on Feb 2, 2021 19:51:41 GMT -5
And if folks still dont believe the child , lets take us a good long peek at noahs days and those of sodom . DID anyone ever read , that somewhere a second ark appeared to save the few who might later heed . HOW BOUT LOTTS days . DID YA EVER , EVER, EVER , EVER , and EVER hear tale that somehow during the judgment , later a small rememnat got out . YEAH SO WHY LISTEN TO PRE TRIB . TIS A LIE folks . A LIE . OOPS
The ark is often used as a comparison to the rapture. The ark was built to the saving of Noah and his family before the judgment came. Noah and his family were not required to float or swim in the waters till they subsided. I still believe there is a pre-tribulation rapture for those who are watching and waiting on Jesus' return.
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Post by John on Feb 2, 2021 19:55:25 GMT -5
One key verse is this one: Luk 21:36 (36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. It talks about escaping all the things mentioned in Luke 21:10-28. And the only way you are able to stand before the Son of man, having escaped these things, is to be in heaven wit him, and that is what happens at the rapture, we meet him in the air, get a glorified body, and go to heaven with him.
I agree Giller. There are only 2 options here for what that verse means, in my opinion. Either we are praying that we will be ready for the rapture, so we do not have to go through the tribulation, or we are praying for an early death so we will not have to go through the tribulation. That is the only way to escape those things. Surviving the judgments and having to ride them out is not escaping them.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 3, 2021 9:51:01 GMT -5
Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are not explicitly clear on the timeline of events. Those chapters intertwine the short-term predictions the apostles would see and the long-term trajectory of world events. So the details are not clear on who will be worthy to escape what kind of terror. It's likely that the escape will be the one in Revelation 12, where the woman and her children are hidden from the dragon. Most of the church will be here during the antichrist -- Revelation repeatedly tells us that he wages war on the saints -- but there's a safe place prepared for the church.
Noah wasn't raptured away from God's wrath. But he escaped it. Same for Jeremiah surviving the capture of Jerusalem, Lot surviving the destruction of Sodom, the apostles fleeing the second temple before its demise, etc. They all escaped the worst of it without leaving earth.
And I just don't buy it that the drunken carousing is lukewarm Christians who will suddenly grow a spine. Cowardly people give up in persecution. In the days of Noah, there wasn't any carousing element forced to swim the flood waters to earn their deliverance. No one came limping out of Sodom with newfound zeal for the Lord.
And how are there two prophets doing mighty miracles by the Holy Spirit if the anointing of the Spirit is gone??
I've read various blog posts for evidence of a pre-trib rapture. You can make a case on a small handful of verses, but the evidence used to argue for it, by and large, is really bad evidence.
Maybe there's some secret formula to the pre-trib theory I haven't found yet.
Like I said, I go back and forth on this, but I certainly don't see pre-trib as a slam dunk case.
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Post by Giller on Feb 3, 2021 10:02:31 GMT -5
Always remember Watchful that this restraining stuff restrains or withholds, unto the time that the Antichrist is on the scene and gets revealed, and the second coming is near to come to pass, so it was not referring to Paul at all. Paul mentioned what was withholding, there is no guessing needed, and he said that a falling away had to first come, and that answer, which is plainly said in the bible, is good enough for me.
I understand much of what you are saying, but I do not see how the falling away is what is withholding end time events from taking place. The falling away is a sign, not a restrainer. You could make the argument that the church is the restrainer, and it is withholding things from occurring till they be taken out of the way because they became apostate, but that does not really make sense to me either. I have always taken the restrainer to be the church, and them being taken out of the way as being the rapture.
2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. John I understand your view, but what do we do with what it says here? The words " now ye know", says that there was something that was mentioned before hand, in order for them to now know. And to now know, suggests, that because something was mentioned, you can now presently know what it is. And in the previous verses, the rapture was not mentioned one time. And then there is this scripture: 2Th 2:7 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. The rapture is not an "he" or a "she" and neither is the church and "he". Now concerning the falling away, yes it is a sign, but also, it was something mentioned before hand. Here is what the bible says: 2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. And here is what it says in a previous verse: 2Th 2:3 (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; And both verses 3, and 6, mention the revealing of the Antichrist, and both mention something that has to happen beforehand, such as something withholding, the revealing of the Antichrist, and something happening before the Antichrist is revealed. Now the way many people take this restraining thing to mean, is that it is some type of power, that is holding back, the Antichrist somehow, but the type of withholding it is talking about here, is not a holding back of evil from increasing, but rather a holding back of the Antichrist from being revealed. And remember we are called to expose the darkness, and not hide the darkness, even the HolySpirit reveals what the darkness is. 2Th 2:7 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. The only power, mentioned in these specific scriptures, is this mystery of iniquity, which is the spirit of Antichrist, and it is the spirit of Antichrist, that brings about this falling away. Now is the falling away a power? No it is not, but is the word withholdeth, even mentioned as being a power in the first place? Maybe many are taking things the wrong way. Could it be that this thing that is withholding, is not withholding as a power, but rather withholding as a type of preventing things from coming to pass? Such as because this end times falling away is not on the scene, therefore the Antichrist cannot be revealed in who he is? The bible says this: 2Th 2:3 (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Even though I do believe in the pre trib rapture, and that it will take place before the tribulation takes place, in regards to 2 Thessalonians, of the events that it, itself mentions, that has to take place, before the Antichrist is to be revealed, it mentions nothing about the rapture of the church, nothing whatsoever, but the falling away is for sure mentioned. So the question is this, if they are now suppose to know what withholdeth, if the church or maybe rapture is suppose to be the answer to this now knowing, then why was is not even mentioned? |
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Post by John on Feb 3, 2021 10:09:14 GMT -5
Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are not explicitly clear on the timeline of events. Those chapters intertwine the short-term predictions the apostles would see and the long-term trajectory of world events. So the details are not clear on who will be worthy to escape what kind of terror. It's likely that the escape will be the one in Revelation 12, where the woman and her children are hidden from the dragon. Most of the church will be here during the antichrist -- Revelation repeatedly tells us that he wages war on the saints -- but there's a safe place prepared for the church. Noah wasn't raptured away from God's wrath. But he escaped it. Same for Jeremiah surviving the capture of Jerusalem, Lot surviving the destruction of Sodom, the apostles fleeing the second temple before its demise, etc. They all escaped the worst of it without leaving earth. And I just don't buy it that the drunken carousing is lukewarm Christians who will suddenly grow a spine. Cowardly people give up in persecution. In the days of Noah, there wasn't any carousing element forced to swim the flood waters to earn their deliverance. No one came limping out of Sodom with newfound zeal for the Lord. And how are there two prophets doing mighty miracles by the Holy Spirit if the anointing of the Spirit is gone?? I've read various blog posts for evidence of a pre-trib rapture. You can make a case on a small handful of verses, but the evidence used to argue for it, by and large, is really bad evidence. Maybe there's some secret formula to the pre-trib theory I haven't found yet. Like I said, I go back and forth on this, but I certainly don't see pre-trib as a slam dunk case.
I do not think pre-trib is a slam dunk either, but neither do I think that if you just read the Bible fresh with no biases, you will automatically come to the conclusion there is no pre-tribulation rapture. I do not think that the majority of professing Christians will escape the tribulation. I believe that only those who are closely following Jesus will be accounted worthy to escape. That is one reason you see Christians still around during the tribulation in Revelation. There will be the lukewarm, along with those who get saved during that period of time.
To me, the issue of a pre-tribulation rapture verses a post-tribulation rapture is far from settled, but there is one thing I do know. If there is no pre-tribulation rapture, it makes no sense to be watching for the Lord to return because we would know that is not possible. His return could not come till a series of specific events take place. In addition to that, once we saw the Anti-Christ revealed, we would know when Jesus was going to show up, 7 years later. I do not see being in a place of safety as escaping all these things to come. To me, that is a weak explanation for the meaning of that verse, so while I do agree with you that a pre-tribulation rapture is not a slam dunk, I hardly see the alternative as a slam dunk. Missing it on Bible prophecy should not cause anyone to lose their faith. Some things are just not that clear.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 3, 2021 10:11:41 GMT -5
I've never taken "now ye know" to mean that Paul was giving the answer in the letter. It seems to me that he spoke to them in person and taught them at length about the restrainer, and in the letter he's just reminding them that they already know the information. Paul never writes in the letter who "he" is, yet he obviously expects those people to know the answer.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 3, 2021 10:19:26 GMT -5
I do not think pre-trib is a slam dunk either, but neither do I think that if you just read the Bible fresh with no biases, you will automatically come to the conclusion there is no pre-tribulation rapture. That's the fickle nature of prophecy in Scripture. A casual reading of the minor prophets would not automatically make you think of Jesus. Some of the fulfilled prophecies taught by the apostles sound completely out of context in the OT. If we use the first "unsealing" as our guide, then contextual reading is not the formula. |
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Post by John on Feb 3, 2021 10:19:59 GMT -5
I understand much of what you are saying, but I do not see how the falling away is what is withholding end time events from taking place. The falling away is a sign, not a restrainer. You could make the argument that the church is the restrainer, and it is withholding things from occurring till they be taken out of the way because they became apostate, but that does not really make sense to me either. I have always taken the restrainer to be the church, and them being taken out of the way as being the rapture.
2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. John I understand your view, but what do we do with what it says here? The words " now ye know", says that there was something that was mentioned before hand, in order for them to now know. And to now know, suggests, that because something was mentioned, you can now presently know what it is. And in the previous verses, the rapture was not mentioned one time. And then there is this scripture: 2Th 2:7 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. The rapture is not an "he" or a "she" and neither is the church and "he". Now concerning the falling away, yes it is a sign, but also, it was something mentioned before hand. Here is what the bible says: 2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. And here is what it says in a previous verse: 2Th 2:3 (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; And both verses 3, and 6, mention the revealing of the Antichrist, and both mention something that has to happen beforehand, such as something withholding, the revealing of the Antichrist, and something happening before the Antichrist is revealed. Now the way many people take this restraining thing to mean, is that it is some type of power, that is holding back, the Antichrist somehow, but the type of withholding it is talking about here, is not a holding back of evil from increasing, but rather a holding back of the Antichrist from being revealed. And remember we are called to expose the darkness, and not hide the darkness, even the HolySpirit reveals what the darkness is. 2Th 2:7 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. The only power, mentioned in these specific scriptures, is this mystery of iniquity, which is the spirit of Antichrist, and it is the spirit of Antichrist, that brings about this falling away. Now is the falling away a power? No it is not, but is the word withholdeth, even mentioned as being a power in the first place? Maybe many are taking things the wrong way. Could it be that this thing that is withholding, is not withholding as a power, but rather withholding as a type of preventing things from coming to pass? Such as because this end times falling away is not on the scene, therefore the Antichrist cannot be revealed in who he is? The bible says this: 2Th 2:3 (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Even though I do believe in the pre trib rapture, and that it will take place before the tribulation takes place, in regards to 2 Thessalonians, of the events that it, itself mentions, that has to take place, before the Antichrist is to be revealed, it mentions nothing about the rapture of the church, nothing whatsoever, but the falling away is for sure mentioned. So the question is this, if they are now suppose to know what withholdeth, if the church or maybe rapture is suppose to be the answer to this now knowing, then why was is not even mentioned?
There are serious questions here, and I am trying to keep an open mind, but what you said brings up another question. You are right that the rapture is not a he or a she and neither is the church, but what of a falling away? That is not a he or a she. It is an event. The way this is worded, I do not see how a falling away could be preventing the Anti-Christ from coming on the scene, "until he be taken out of the way?" Who is the he?
I know that some believe the Holy Spirit is the one that will be taken out of the way. The Holy Spirit is a he, a real person, in addition to being God. That would make sense in light of that argument you are making, but if the Holy Spirit is removed entirely from this world during the tribulation period, you would have to figure there will be no one to convict of sins during that time, so nobody would be getting saved.
I do think you are making points we need to look at, but I do not see how the falling away fits. If that is what this is saying, we still return to the church being the restrainer, but rather than the church being removed physically to allow the Anti-Christ to show up, we now have the church backsliding to allow the Anti-Christ to show up. My feeling has always been that the on fire church, of which there remains a remnant, will be taken out of the world, leaving only the lukewarm, and they will not stand when the trials get difficult. That will lead to the falling away.
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Post by John on Feb 3, 2021 10:22:45 GMT -5
I've never taken "now ye know" to mean that Paul was giving the answer in the letter. It seems to me that he spoke to them in person and taught them at length about the restrainer, and in the letter he's just reminding them that they already know the information. Paul never writes in the letter who "he" is, yet he obviously expects those people to know the answer.
That is an interesting observation, "he obviously expects those people to know the answer." I do think that things that were obvious to Paul's audience 2000 plus years ago is no longer obvious today. Knowledge of certain things was lost over the years, so when we read the scriptures, we fail to get the intended meaning. We do not have Paul to ask what he meant. It would be nice if we did.
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