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Post by Giller on Feb 3, 2021 10:28:25 GMT -5
I've never taken "now ye know" to mean that Paul was giving the answer in the letter. It seems to me that he spoke to them in person and taught them at length about the restrainer, and in the letter he's just reminding them that they already know the information. Paul never writes in the letter who "he" is, yet he obviously expects those people to know the answer. I would kind of agree, and kind of disagree, now concerning the "He" I would agree, but concerning what withholdeth, I would disagree. Because the now ye know statement, seems to be an imminent thing he just mentioned. But of course concerning other things on this subject, he did talk about it before hand. 2Th 2:5 (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? He may have talked to them about the falling away ,at some point, but I do know for sure that he did talk about the second coming before chapter 2, he even talked about the second coming, in Thessalonians chapter 1, but here he affirms what has to take place before the second coming of Christ, he gives the answer, so that they know what has to happen first, and how events will unfold, the bible says to compare the bible with the bible, there is no guessing needed. Paul did not mention this falling away happening first, just to fill in space. And Paul did not say now ye know for no reason either, it was for them to now know how the events were to take place, that a falling away would take place first, then the Antichrist could be revealed, to me it is a no brainer. Just follow what it says, rather than guess what it says. |
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 3, 2021 10:33:30 GMT -5
I've never taken "now ye know" to mean that Paul was giving the answer in the letter. It seems to me that he spoke to them in person and taught them at length about the restrainer, and in the letter he's just reminding them that they already know the information. Paul never writes in the letter who "he" is, yet he obviously expects those people to know the answer.
That is an interesting observation, "he obviously expects those people to know the answer." I do think that things that were obvious to Paul's audience 2000 plus years ago is no longer obvious today. Knowledge of certain things was lost over the years, so when we read the scriptures, we fail to get the intended meaning. We do not have Paul to ask what he meant. It would be nice if we did.
For all we know the restrainer could be an archangel. Watchful thinks Paul may have meant himself or some other apostle. Perhaps John's vision of the end -- and the removal of the last apostle -- unleashed the antichrist agenda to begin its work. We truly don't know. |
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Post by Giller on Feb 3, 2021 10:37:44 GMT -5
2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. John I understand your view, but what do we do with what it says here? The words " now ye know", says that there was something that was mentioned before hand, in order for them to now know. And to now know, suggests, that because something was mentioned, you can now presently know what it is. And in the previous verses, the rapture was not mentioned one time. And then there is this scripture: 2Th 2:7 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. The rapture is not an "he" or a "she" and neither is the church and "he". Now concerning the falling away, yes it is a sign, but also, it was something mentioned before hand. Here is what the bible says: 2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. And here is what it says in a previous verse: 2Th 2:3 (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; And both verses 3, and 6, mention the revealing of the Antichrist, and both mention something that has to happen beforehand, such as something withholding, the revealing of the Antichrist, and something happening before the Antichrist is revealed. Now the way many people take this restraining thing to mean, is that it is some type of power, that is holding back, the Antichrist somehow, but the type of withholding it is talking about here, is not a holding back of evil from increasing, but rather a holding back of the Antichrist from being revealed. And remember we are called to expose the darkness, and not hide the darkness, even the HolySpirit reveals what the darkness is. 2Th 2:7 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. The only power, mentioned in these specific scriptures, is this mystery of iniquity, which is the spirit of Antichrist, and it is the spirit of Antichrist, that brings about this falling away. Now is the falling away a power? No it is not, but is the word withholdeth, even mentioned as being a power in the first place? Maybe many are taking things the wrong way. Could it be that this thing that is withholding, is not withholding as a power, but rather withholding as a type of preventing things from coming to pass? Such as because this end times falling away is not on the scene, therefore the Antichrist cannot be revealed in who he is? The bible says this: 2Th 2:3 (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Even though I do believe in the pre trib rapture, and that it will take place before the tribulation takes place, in regards to 2 Thessalonians, of the events that it, itself mentions, that has to take place, before the Antichrist is to be revealed, it mentions nothing about the rapture of the church, nothing whatsoever, but the falling away is for sure mentioned. So the question is this, if they are now suppose to know what withholdeth, if the church or maybe rapture is suppose to be the answer to this now knowing, then why was is not even mentioned?
There are serious questions here, and I am trying to keep an open mind, but what you said brings up another question. You are right that the rapture is not a he or a she and neither is the church, but what of a falling away? That is not a he or a she. It is an event. The way this is worded, I do not see how a falling away could be preventing the Anti-Christ from coming on the scene, "until he be taken out of the way?" Who is the he?
I know that some believe the Holy Spirit is the one that will be taken out of the way. The Holy Spirit is a he, a real person, in addition to being God. That would make sense in light of that argument you are making, but if the Holy Spirit is removed entirely from this world during the tribulation period, you would have to figure there will be no one to convict of sins during that time, so nobody would be getting saved.
I do think you are making points we need to look at, but I do not see how the falling away fits. If that is what this is saying, we still return to the church being the restrainer, but rather than the church being removed physically to allow the Anti-Christ to show up, we now have the church backsliding to allow the Anti-Christ to show up. My feeling has always been that the on fire church, of which there remains a remnant, will be taken out of the world, leaving only the lukewarm, and they will not stand when the trials get difficult. That will lead to the falling away.
I do not take these verses as being the same: 2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Such as " what" withholdeth, vs " he" who now letteth. The falling away can be referred to as a "what", but it cannot be referred to as an "he". I take these 2 things as referring to 2 different things. And the church is not an "he", so it cannot fit with he who now letteth, now the Holy Ghost, can be an "he", yet there is not scripture that shows that he will be taken out of the way, before the tribulation period, the word is silent on that, and we have to go by the word of God. |
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Post by John on Feb 3, 2021 10:40:51 GMT -5
That is an interesting observation, "he obviously expects those people to know the answer." I do think that things that were obvious to Paul's audience 2000 plus years ago is no longer obvious today. Knowledge of certain things was lost over the years, so when we read the scriptures, we fail to get the intended meaning. We do not have Paul to ask what he meant. It would be nice if we did.
For all we know the restrainer could be an archangel. Watchful thinks Paul may have meant himself or some other apostle. Perhaps John's vision of the end -- and the removal of the last apostle -- unleashed the antichrist agenda to begin its work. We truly don't know.
I noticed Watchful said that about Paul, and I do not think that was the case. If you are speaking of the Apostles, which "last apostle?" The last of the 12? Was it the death of John? I do not see how they were withholding anything. An archangel is something I never considered. That could certainly be a he.
All of this shows that these things are not as settled as some might want them to be. That is why I do not attack those who do not believe in the rapture, and accuse them of rejecting the blessed hope or being some kind of heretic. It really is not that plain. We read the text and try to figure it out, but only God knows for sure. Maybe as we continue to look at these scriptures and talk this through, it will become more evident one way or the other.
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Post by Giller on Feb 3, 2021 10:42:38 GMT -5
I know that many are viewing the restrainer as being some type of power holding back the revealing of the Antichrist, but what if it was not referring to that at all, what if it is said in a different way than what we think?
The answers are in the bible, I do not believe it was God's will that we guess, it is all there, 1 + 1 = 2.
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Post by John on Feb 3, 2021 10:49:15 GMT -5
There are serious questions here, and I am trying to keep an open mind, but what you said brings up another question. You are right that the rapture is not a he or a she and neither is the church, but what of a falling away? That is not a he or a she. It is an event. The way this is worded, I do not see how a falling away could be preventing the Anti-Christ from coming on the scene, "until he be taken out of the way?" Who is the he?
I know that some believe the Holy Spirit is the one that will be taken out of the way. The Holy Spirit is a he, a real person, in addition to being God. That would make sense in light of that argument you are making, but if the Holy Spirit is removed entirely from this world during the tribulation period, you would have to figure there will be no one to convict of sins during that time, so nobody would be getting saved.
I do think you are making points we need to look at, but I do not see how the falling away fits. If that is what this is saying, we still return to the church being the restrainer, but rather than the church being removed physically to allow the Anti-Christ to show up, we now have the church backsliding to allow the Anti-Christ to show up. My feeling has always been that the on fire church, of which there remains a remnant, will be taken out of the world, leaving only the lukewarm, and they will not stand when the trials get difficult. That will lead to the falling away.
I do not take these verses as being the same: 2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Such as " what" withholdeth, vs " he" who now letteth. The falling away can be referred to as a "what", but it cannot be referred to as an "he". I take these 2 things as referring to 2 different things. And the church is not an "he", so it cannot fit with he who now letteth, now the Holy Ghost, can be an "he", yet there is not scripture that shows that he will be taken out of the way, before the tribulation period, the word is silent on that, and we have to go by the word of God.
The only way the church could be referred to as a he is in reference to the church being part of Christ's body. In other places, the church is referred to as guests at a wedding and the bride of Christ. The church is also referred to as friends of the bride groom.
The Holy Spirit is a he, and as PG4Him said, an archangel could also be a he. So who is the "he" that "withholdeth?" An event cannot be a he. So you think that what withholdeth is the falling away of the church? Then we have another question? Which falling away? While you can definitely say that many in the church have fallen away, how are they worse now than in times past? I would suggest they have not fallen away as bad as in times past, at least not yet. That could change. We definitely have a lot to consider here.
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Post by John on Feb 3, 2021 10:50:54 GMT -5
I know that many are viewing the restrainer as being some type of power holding back the revealing of the Antichrist, but what if it was not referring to that at all, what if it is said in a different way than what we think? The answers are in the bible, I do not believe it was God's will that we guess, it is all there, 1 + 1 = 2.
You may be right, and if that is true, we just have to keep digging in till we find the truth. I think it is worth pursuing to try to get the right interpretation.
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Post by Giller on Feb 3, 2021 11:16:01 GMT -5
I do not take these verses as being the same: 2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Such as " what" withholdeth, vs " he" who now letteth. The falling away can be referred to as a "what", but it cannot be referred to as an "he". I take these 2 things as referring to 2 different things. And the church is not an "he", so it cannot fit with he who now letteth, now the Holy Ghost, can be an "he", yet there is not scripture that shows that he will be taken out of the way, before the tribulation period, the word is silent on that, and we have to go by the word of God.
The only way the church could be referred to as a he is in reference to the church being part of Christ's body. In other places, the church is referred to as guests at a wedding and the bride of Christ. The church is also referred to as friends of the bride groom.
The Holy Spirit is a he, and as PG4Him said, an archangel could also be a he. So who is the "he" that "withholdeth?" An event cannot be a he. So you think that what withholdeth is the falling away of the church? Then we have another question? Which falling away? While you can definitely say that many in the church have fallen away, how are they worse now than in times past? I would suggest they have not fallen away as bad as in times past, at least not yet. That could change. We definitely have a lot to consider here.
Well it has to be a falling away, that has to happen before the coming of the Son of God. I personally think that the modern day falling away, is a lot more deceptive than what we think, way more, it has a lot of tentacles. Now in the time of Constantine, many Christians fell into the trap that Constantine put forth, they fell into his ecumenicalism, and many left their ways for Constantine's type of Christianity, yet there was opposition to it, and them that opposed, were persecuted. And it began a time called the dark ages. So a big falling away happened at this time, yet as things progressed, many people were born and grew up in this Roman form of Christianity, the ones that had fallen away, brought up their children in these ways. So many of the next generation did not grow up being truly Christians, so they were not falling away from the faith, for most were not in the faith to begin with, and they grew up in this stuff. There was always remnants of true Christians in those times, but most were never Christians to begin with, but as some read the bible for themselves, then their eyes were opened, and some revivals began to take place. Now to our modern day Apostasy, today, most have joined the ecumenical movement, and it is not a small movement, and Satan has bought about so many doctrines on the scene, that many are confused at what the real truth is, and he has brought about also all kinds of false, watered down bibles, which adds to the confusion, and many Christians, it is said, who go to college, renounce their faith, the Devil is having a field day, yet this unity movement, for some, they see it as a comfort, because some will say, since we cannot know the absolute truth, then let us not divide, but unite, and have so called peace, no standing for real truth. That has affected many, in Christian circles, which many do not have a strong foundation. So in the dark ages, many were not allowed to read the bible in their own language, but now many are, but what most are reading are the watered down bibles, so the deception is as great, but in a sense more deceptive since people are allowed to read their bibles, but in most cases, it is in a watered down form. One of the great deceptions of today, is that things seem more innocent, yet they are not, and bite like a serpent. |
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Post by John on Feb 3, 2021 11:56:00 GMT -5
I would never make light of the falling away taking place today Giller. I just know there have been other instances of the church falling away. It is deceptive today, but is it really worse than in times past? There have always been apostacies and cults, all the way back to the original gnostic believers.
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Post by Giller on Feb 3, 2021 11:59:23 GMT -5
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, note 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. note 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
If you look at the context of these scriptures, you will notice that the main theme is, is about correcting certain things people were saying. And Paul may have mentioned things about the second coming to the Thessalonians before, but here he was setting the record strait of how events would unfold, which clarified things for the Thessalonians. Which now they knew for a certainty what the order of events were. |
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Post by Giller on Feb 3, 2021 14:14:43 GMT -5
I would never make light of the falling away taking place today Giller . I just know there have been other instances of the church falling away. It is deceptive today, but is it really worse than in times past? There have always been apostacies and cults, all the way back to the original gnostic believers.
Oh there has always been deception, but considering our days, we can easily have access to a bible, but in those days it was harder, yet of course we have so many watered down bibles, yet in light of people even able to have access to a KJV, people are just as deceived as ever.
Being able to have easier access to bibles, yet being as much deceived as ever.
I think in that light, it is worse than ever, yet there are more versions of so called bibles today, ever in history, and people would think that that would bring more light to people, but rather these bibles for the most part, are there, to bring more doubt towards real, true and tested bibles.
So much confusion, and there seems to be so much flavors of gnoticism today, and so much flavors of this or that, it makes me think of this scripture:
(2Ti 4:3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
(2Ti 4:4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I believe that the flavors of the doctrines of the past, have greatly expanded.
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Post by Giller on Feb 3, 2021 18:45:45 GMT -5
2Th 2:1-8
(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
(2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
The word of God, reveals the word of God, there is no guessing needed, just prayer, study, and seeking his face, and believing what it says.
Too many times people have a hard time believing what it actually says.
And sometimes, it is doctrines of the past that hinder people from seeing and believing what the bible actually says.
Or we see things in a certain way, therefore it is impossible for it to be something else.
Some things are harder to see via end time prophecy than other things, that is true, yet there are some things that are right in front of us, said strait forward, yet we do not see.
We should never ignore what it says, or skip words, but put all the things together.
What happened here, was that some were troubled, and shaken in mind, concerning the day of Christ being at hand, and Paul corrected this, by telling them that the day of Christ won't come until there come a falling away first, and also that the Antichrist gets revealed.
So 2 things were mentioned in verse 3, that has to happen before the second coming can take place.
And verse 4, mentions what this Antichrist shall do, how he shall exalt himself above all that is called God, and how that he will sit in the temple, shewing himself that he is God.
Verse 5, was a reminder that Paul told them some of these things in the past, and there is evidence in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, of Paul telling them of the second coming, and it is possible that he mentioned things concerning the Antichrist, and the falling away to some degree.
But then we get to verse 6, which says this:
2Th 2:6
(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Even though he told them things in the past to some degree, here Paul was correcting the notion of the coming of the Lord being at hand, and he gave them the order of how things will take place.
So that they can now presently know, what was preventing the revealing of the Antichrist, and the only answer Paul gave here was that the falling away must happen first, that is the only answer he gave, before verse 6, of happening before the Antichrist can be revealed.
The only answer, so should we not just believe that answer he gave? Even though we do not understand it, or it does not make sense to us?
So verse 6, shows something that they now presently know, because of Paul revealing it to them.
Now I do understand how if you take "what" withholdeth, to mean that some type of power was holding back the Antichrists from being revealed, that if you take that as a power, that it cannot refer to the falling away, because the falling away, is not a power, but rather an event, something that takes place, or a prophecy.
But now the question is, if the true answer is the falling away, then obviously, the word withholdeth, is not referring to some power.
One of the words that I mentioned before, concerning what was in the definition of the word withholdeth, was the word stay.
(Webster's dictionary)
(STAY, v.t. pret. and pp. staid, for stayed.
1. To stop; to hold from proceeding; to withhold; to restrain.)
So if it is not a power that is stopping, or holding back the Antichrist from being revealed, then in what way is the Antichrist being held back from being revealed?
Can a prophecy not being fulfilled, hinder another prophecy from being fulfilled? Yes, and it may not be in a literal way, but rather in a type of figurative way I guess you can call it, for it is evident that the prophecy of the Antichrist being revealed, cannot happen without the prophecy of the falling away coming to pass, it just will not take place.
2Th 2:7-8
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Now in verse 7, the mystery of iniquity refers to the spirit of Antichrist, but what about the "he" who now letteth?
Now the falling away can be referred to as a what, but not as an he.
So I bear witness that verse 6, is referring to the falling away:
2Th 2:6
(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
But not verse 7, and in verse 7, it does not mention the words: "now ye know", but in verse 6, it does.
The "he" who now letteth part of verse 7, actually starts with the word "only".
But the beginning part of verse7 begins with mentioning the mystery of iniquity, and then it mentions this ":", and after it begins with the word "only" and then mentions the "he" who now letteth.
So there seems to be some connection between the mystery of iniquity, and the "he" who now letteth in some form, whether in a direct, or indirect form, that is another question, and I say this because of the ":" in between the two statements.
And then there is the word "only".
Only, means this:
(Strong's concordance)
(G3440
μόνον
monon
mon'-on
Neuter of G3441 as adverb; merely: - alone, but, only.
Total KJV occurrences: 68)
It seems to me, to be saying to me, that there is something else being mentioned here, so what is this mystery of "he" who now letteth?
Well the mystery of iniquity may have some type of association to it, no not necessarily in a direct way, but somehow, I have a feeling that the spirit of antichrist will cause this "he" to be taken out of the way.
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Feb 3, 2021 19:12:22 GMT -5
2Th 2:1-8 (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: The word of God, reveals the word of God, there is no guessing needed, just prayer, study, and seeking his face, and believing what it says. Too many times people have a hard time believing what it actually says. And sometimes, it is doctrines of the past that hinder people from seeing and believing what the bible actually says. Or we see things in a certain way, therefore it is impossible for it to be something else. Some things are harder to see via end time prophecy than other things, that is true, yet there are some things that are right in front of us, said strait forward, yet we do not see. We should never ignore what it says, or skip words, but put all the things together. What happened here, was that some were troubled, and shaken in mind, concerning the day of Christ being at hand, and Paul corrected this, by telling them that the day of Christ won't come until there come a falling away first, and also that the Antichrist gets revealed. So 2 things were mentioned in verse 3, that has to happen before the second coming can take place. And verse 4, mentions what this Antichrist shall do, how he shall exalt himself above all that is called God, and how that he will sit in the temple, shewing himself that he is God. Verse 5, was a reminder that Paul told them some of these things in the past, and there is evidence in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, of Paul telling them of the second coming, and it is possible that he mentioned things concerning the Antichrist, and the falling away to some degree. But then we get to verse 6, which says this:2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. Even though he told them things in the past to some degree, here Paul was correcting the notion of the coming of the Lord being at hand, and he gave them the order of how things will take place. So that they can now presently know, what was preventing the revealing of the Antichrist, and the only answer Paul gave here was that the falling away must happen first, that is the only answer he gave, before verse 6, of happening before the Antichrist can be revealed. The only answer, so should we not just believe that answer he gave? Even though we do not understand it, or it does not make sense to us? So verse 6, shows something that they now presently know, because of Paul revealing it to them. Now I do understand how if you take " what" withholdeth, to mean that some type of power was holding back the Antichrists from being revealed, that if you take that as a power, that it cannot refer to the falling away, because the falling away, is not a power, but rather an event, something that takes place, or a prophecy. But now the question is, if the true answer is the falling away, then obviously, the word withholdeth, is not referring to some power. One of the words that I mentioned before, concerning what was in the definition of the word withholdeth, was the word stay. (Webster's dictionary)
(STAY, v.t. pret. and pp. staid, for stayed.
1. To stop; to hold from proceeding; to withhold; to restrain.)
So if it is not a power that is stopping, or holding back the Antichrist from being revealed, then in what way is the Antichrist being held back from being revealed? Can a prophecy not being fulfilled, hinder another prophecy from being fulfilled? Yes, and it may not be in a literal way, but rather in a type of figurative way I guess you can call it, for it is evident that the prophecy of the Antichrist being revealed, cannot happen without the prophecy of the falling away coming to pass, it just will not take place. 2Th 2:7-8 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Now in verse 7, the mystery of iniquity refers to the spirit of Antichrist, but what about the "he" who now letteth?Now the falling away can be referred to as a what, but not as an he.So I bear witness that verse 6, is referring to the falling away:2Th 2:6(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.But not verse 7, and in verse 7, it does not mention the words: "now ye know", but in verse 6, it does.The "he" who now letteth part of verse 7, actually starts with the word "only".But the beginning part of verse7 begins with mentioning the mystery of iniquity, and then it mentions this ":", and after it begins with the word "only" and then mentions the "he" who now letteth.
So there seems to be some connection between the mystery of iniquity, and the "he" who now letteth in some form, whether in a direct, or indirect form, that is another question, and I say this because of the ":" in between the two statements. And then there is the word " only". Only, means this: (Strong's concordance)
(G3440
μόνον
monon
mon'-on
Neuter of G3441 as adverb; merely: - alone, but, only.
Total KJV occurrences: 68)
It seems to me, to be saying to me, that there is something else being mentioned here, so what is this mystery of "he" who now letteth? Well the mystery of iniquity may have some type of association to it, no not necessarily in a direct way, but somehow, I have a feeling that the spirit of antichrist will cause this "he" to be taken out of the way. So the anti-Christ is going to sit in the Temple. Is this referring to the Temple Mount that is in Israel today? Or some other temple? |
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Post by John on Feb 3, 2021 19:42:52 GMT -5
2Th 2:1-8 (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: The word of God, reveals the word of God, there is no guessing needed, just prayer, study, and seeking his face, and believing what it says. Too many times people have a hard time believing what it actually says. And sometimes, it is doctrines of the past that hinder people from seeing and believing what the bible actually says. Or we see things in a certain way, therefore it is impossible for it to be something else. Some things are harder to see via end time prophecy than other things, that is true, yet there are some things that are right in front of us, said strait forward, yet we do not see. We should never ignore what it says, or skip words, but put all the things together. What happened here, was that some were troubled, and shaken in mind, concerning the day of Christ being at hand, and Paul corrected this, by telling them that the day of Christ won't come until there come a falling away first, and also that the Antichrist gets revealed. So 2 things were mentioned in verse 3, that has to happen before the second coming can take place. And verse 4, mentions what this Antichrist shall do, how he shall exalt himself above all that is called God, and how that he will sit in the temple, shewing himself that he is God. Verse 5, was a reminder that Paul told them some of these things in the past, and there is evidence in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, of Paul telling them of the second coming, and it is possible that he mentioned things concerning the Antichrist, and the falling away to some degree. But then we get to verse 6, which says this:2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. Even though he told them things in the past to some degree, here Paul was correcting the notion of the coming of the Lord being at hand, and he gave them the order of how things will take place. So that they can now presently know, what was preventing the revealing of the Antichrist, and the only answer Paul gave here was that the falling away must happen first, that is the only answer he gave, before verse 6, of happening before the Antichrist can be revealed. The only answer, so should we not just believe that answer he gave? Even though we do not understand it, or it does not make sense to us? So verse 6, shows something that they now presently know, because of Paul revealing it to them. Now I do understand how if you take " what" withholdeth, to mean that some type of power was holding back the Antichrists from being revealed, that if you take that as a power, that it cannot refer to the falling away, because the falling away, is not a power, but rather an event, something that takes place, or a prophecy. But now the question is, if the true answer is the falling away, then obviously, the word withholdeth, is not referring to some power. One of the words that I mentioned before, concerning what was in the definition of the word withholdeth, was the word stay. (Webster's dictionary)
(STAY, v.t. pret. and pp. staid, for stayed.
1. To stop; to hold from proceeding; to withhold; to restrain.)
So if it is not a power that is stopping, or holding back the Antichrist from being revealed, then in what way is the Antichrist being held back from being revealed? Can a prophecy not being fulfilled, hinder another prophecy from being fulfilled? Yes, and it may not be in a literal way, but rather in a type of figurative way I guess you can call it, for it is evident that the prophecy of the Antichrist being revealed, cannot happen without the prophecy of the falling away coming to pass, it just will not take place. 2Th 2:7-8 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Now in verse 7, the mystery of iniquity refers to the spirit of Antichrist, but what about the "he" who now letteth?Now the falling away can be referred to as a what, but not as an he.So I bear witness that verse 6, is referring to the falling away:2Th 2:6(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.But not verse 7, and in verse 7, it does not mention the words: "now ye know", but in verse 6, it does.The "he" who now letteth part of verse 7, actually starts with the word "only".But the beginning part of verse7 begins with mentioning the mystery of iniquity, and then it mentions this ":", and after it begins with the word "only" and then mentions the "he" who now letteth.
So there seems to be some connection between the mystery of iniquity, and the "he" who now letteth in some form, whether in a direct, or indirect form, that is another question, and I say this because of the ":" in between the two statements. And then there is the word " only". Only, means this: (Strong's concordance)
(G3440
μόνον
monon
mon'-on
Neuter of G3441 as adverb; merely: - alone, but, only.
Total KJV occurrences: 68)
It seems to me, to be saying to me, that there is something else being mentioned here, so what is this mystery of "he" who now letteth? Well the mystery of iniquity may have some type of association to it, no not necessarily in a direct way, but somehow, I have a feeling that the spirit of antichrist will cause this "he" to be taken out of the way.
I think we can all agree that before Jesus returns at the time of the second coming, there will be a falling away and the Anti-Christ will be revealed. There should be nothing controversial about that. We still have the question about the he that must be taken out of the way. Is this a person? Is it the Holy Spirit? Is it an angel? That is where the controversy lies, not fully being able to figure that out. Could the church be referred to as "he?" We often times refer to objects as female, like cars or ships or storms. Today, hurricanes are named for both sexes. I am not sure if the use of the word "he" is distracting from the obvious meaning, that this is speaking of the Christian Church? The church is the body of Christ, and Christ is a he. This is just speculation. I cannot be sure.
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Post by Giller on Feb 3, 2021 19:57:45 GMT -5
2Th 2:1-8 (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: The word of God, reveals the word of God, there is no guessing needed, just prayer, study, and seeking his face, and believing what it says. Too many times people have a hard time believing what it actually says. And sometimes, it is doctrines of the past that hinder people from seeing and believing what the bible actually says. Or we see things in a certain way, therefore it is impossible for it to be something else. Some things are harder to see via end time prophecy than other things, that is true, yet there are some things that are right in front of us, said strait forward, yet we do not see. We should never ignore what it says, or skip words, but put all the things together. What happened here, was that some were troubled, and shaken in mind, concerning the day of Christ being at hand, and Paul corrected this, by telling them that the day of Christ won't come until there come a falling away first, and also that the Antichrist gets revealed. So 2 things were mentioned in verse 3, that has to happen before the second coming can take place. And verse 4, mentions what this Antichrist shall do, how he shall exalt himself above all that is called God, and how that he will sit in the temple, shewing himself that he is God. Verse 5, was a reminder that Paul told them some of these things in the past, and there is evidence in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, of Paul telling them of the second coming, and it is possible that he mentioned things concerning the Antichrist, and the falling away to some degree. But then we get to verse 6, which says this:2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. Even though he told them things in the past to some degree, here Paul was correcting the notion of the coming of the Lord being at hand, and he gave them the order of how things will take place. So that they can now presently know, what was preventing the revealing of the Antichrist, and the only answer Paul gave here was that the falling away must happen first, that is the only answer he gave, before verse 6, of happening before the Antichrist can be revealed. The only answer, so should we not just believe that answer he gave? Even though we do not understand it, or it does not make sense to us? So verse 6, shows something that they now presently know, because of Paul revealing it to them. Now I do understand how if you take " what" withholdeth, to mean that some type of power was holding back the Antichrists from being revealed, that if you take that as a power, that it cannot refer to the falling away, because the falling away, is not a power, but rather an event, something that takes place, or a prophecy. But now the question is, if the true answer is the falling away, then obviously, the word withholdeth, is not referring to some power. One of the words that I mentioned before, concerning what was in the definition of the word withholdeth, was the word stay. (Webster's dictionary)
(STAY, v.t. pret. and pp. staid, for stayed.
1. To stop; to hold from proceeding; to withhold; to restrain.)
So if it is not a power that is stopping, or holding back the Antichrist from being revealed, then in what way is the Antichrist being held back from being revealed? Can a prophecy not being fulfilled, hinder another prophecy from being fulfilled? Yes, and it may not be in a literal way, but rather in a type of figurative way I guess you can call it, for it is evident that the prophecy of the Antichrist being revealed, cannot happen without the prophecy of the falling away coming to pass, it just will not take place. 2Th 2:7-8 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Now in verse 7, the mystery of iniquity refers to the spirit of Antichrist, but what about the "he" who now letteth?Now the falling away can be referred to as a what, but not as an he.So I bear witness that verse 6, is referring to the falling away:2Th 2:6(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.But not verse 7, and in verse 7, it does not mention the words: "now ye know", but in verse 6, it does.The "he" who now letteth part of verse 7, actually starts with the word "only".But the beginning part of verse7 begins with mentioning the mystery of iniquity, and then it mentions this ":", and after it begins with the word "only" and then mentions the "he" who now letteth.
So there seems to be some connection between the mystery of iniquity, and the "he" who now letteth in some form, whether in a direct, or indirect form, that is another question, and I say this because of the ":" in between the two statements. And then there is the word " only". Only, means this: (Strong's concordance)
(G3440
μόνον
monon
mon'-on
Neuter of G3441 as adverb; merely: - alone, but, only.
Total KJV occurrences: 68)
It seems to me, to be saying to me, that there is something else being mentioned here, so what is this mystery of "he" who now letteth? Well the mystery of iniquity may have some type of association to it, no not necessarily in a direct way, but somehow, I have a feeling that the spirit of antichrist will cause this "he" to be taken out of the way. So the anti-Christ is going to sit in the Temple. Is this referring to the Temple Mount that is in Israel today? Or some other temple? Well right now, the Jewish temple does not exist, and on what is called the temple mount, there is a mosque, and apparently were many of the Jews believe that the temple use to be, is on this temple mount, but some historical and archeological evidence shows that were the temple mount presently is, is were this Roman fort was, which was called fort Antonia. The real area, that many say, were the true temple use to be, is in this area called the old city of David, to were they have found a threshing floor, which the first temple was built were there was a threshing floor, and in this area, there is a place to were not one stone is left upon another. So no the temple will not be what is presently on the temple mount, but the Jews do have a plan to build one. |
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