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Post by watchful on Apr 16, 2021 6:15:37 GMT -5
Good to discuss these things and hash them out, they are not always easy to understand or express, and I think we all understand them in our own words, so to speak. All the ordinances in the bible were given by God, and amen, they are a shadow of heavenly things and things to come. Even the ten commandments were only a shadow and outline as it were, pointing to the new nature that we are to have, which is the nature and spirit of Christ. The written law only dealt with outward behaviour and actions, not a change of heart. Eg, the law that says "thou shalt not kill" does not encompass if have an attitude of "Raca!" towards someone you have murdered them in your heart.
So thinking in terms that we have died to the Law, all of it, the whole package, and are loosed from it, being married to another now, Christ (Rom 7). Love fulfills the law, and exceeds the righteousness of the written law, and is not really a law itself per se, but a new nature/spirit....the new covenant being a whole new Way (of the spirit, not the letter). That's why Jesus said if you love me you WILL keep my commandments. If we have received His spirit and nature, with His love shed abroad in our hearts, we just will. Even though we have to battle the flesh and old nature in some areas or from time to time...there is an ongoing sanctification of growing and being perfected in holiness, as well, which the Law also pointed to (like unveiling and revealing Christ in us more and more, His nature, or as Paul put it He being formed in us, like the gestation of pregnancy). He has put all things under His feet, but we do not yet see all things put under His feet....we are battling for it though and the Lord leads us and deals with us in our lives in such a way that we are moving towards that goal.
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Post by frienduff on Apr 16, 2021 8:39:27 GMT -5
Let us press on in the glorious Lord my friends . Have all hope above on Him . Let us praise and thank our Lord .
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Post by Giller on Apr 16, 2021 8:48:46 GMT -5
Thoughts of the heart
Even in Old testament times, it talks about sin in conjunction with the heart.
Gen 6:5 (5) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Pro 6:18 (18) An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Psa 41:6 (6) And if he come to see me, he speaketh vanity: his heart gathereth iniquity to itself; when he goeth abroad, he telleth it.
But when Jesus came on the scene, he expanded, upon the issues of the heart.
Mat 5:28 (28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
The 10 commandments exposes sin, even in the heart, for covetousness starts in the heart.
Mat 15:19-20 (19) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: (20) These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Now yes there were physical aspects to the Old Testament, such as at times, you would have to stone someone who committed adultery, although there was times of mercy, such as was shown to David when he committed adultery. But now we no longer stone people.
And then their sins were just covered, but now we are totally cleansed of our sins.
The huge difference, in the New covenant, is that the Messiah has come and has brought redemption to man kind, that once receive, a man can be born again, but not so under the old covenant.
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Post by Giller on Apr 16, 2021 9:31:46 GMT -5
Ordinances that was against them
Col 2:14-16 (14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Now here is an old testament counterpart, to verse 14:
Deu 31:26 (26) Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Since I do not have much time, I will expand more on this, in another post.
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Post by Giller on Apr 18, 2021 9:16:50 GMT -5
Letting the word of God, speak for itself
Col 2:14-16 (14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: | Deu 31:26 (26) Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
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Both Colossians verse 14, and Deuteronomy verse 26, mention something that was against certain people, which speaks of the Jews. And Colossians mentions handwritten ordinances, and Deuteronomy mentions the book of the law. Deu 31:24 (24) And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, So Moses wrote what God had given him in a book, that was named the book of the law, so these laws were written, and the ordinances mentioned in Colossians were also written (handwritting). Here are samples, of what Moses wrote in this book: 1.- Clean and unclean meats (Leviticus 11:1-47). 2.- Nazarite vow (Numbers 6:1-8). 3. Sabbaths and non sabbaths:Sabbaths
1.Feast of Unleavened Bread (Leviticus 23:6-7 , “…feast of unleavened bread…In the first day …ye shall do no servile work therein”)
2.Last day of Unleavened Bread (Leviticus 23:6 .” seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.” , Leviticus 23:8 , “in the seventh day… ye shall do no servile work therein.”
3.Pentecost, 50th day (Leviticus 23:16 , “shall ye number fifty days” , Leviticus 23:21 , “proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein”)
4.Feast of Trumpets (Leviticus 23:24-25 , “…shall ye have a Sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets … Ye shall do no servile work therein”)
5.Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:27-28 , “…shall be a day of atonement … And ye shall do no work in that same day…”)
6.Feast of Tabernacles (Leviticus 23:34-35 , “…feast of tabernacles for seven days … On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.”)
7.Last day of Feast of Tabernacles (Leviticus 23:36 , “…the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; … ye shall do no servile work therein.”)
| Non-Sabbaths
1.The Passover (Leviticus 23:5 , “…fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover”)
2.Wave sheaf (Leviticus 23:9-11 , “…he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it”)
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And we can see how this would fit with Colossians verse 16, which says: Col 2:16 (16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: A drink ordinance would fit with the Nazarite vow, which was written, a meat ordinance would fit with the clean and unclean meats ordinance which was written, and the sabbath days would fit with the sabbath days that were mentioned in the book of the law, which were written, and holydays would fit with all the holy days mentioned under the old covenant, whether a sabbath or non-sabbath, which was written.
What was blotted out, according to Colossians? The handwritten ordinances !!!
So that means that those ordinances are no longer bidding under the New covenant.
Were was this book of the law placed, that contained these ordinances?
Deu 31:26 (26) Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
It was placed on the side of the ark, and not inside the ark, so what was blotted out, according to Colossians was these handwritten ordinances that was placed in the side of the ark, and not inside the ark.
What was placed inside the ark, was the 10 commandments.
And how was these ordinances a witness against the Jews?
Deu 31:27 (27) For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?
Well it was a witness especially against the Jews who were stiff necked, for it was not against them because these ordinances were wrong, but rather because of their stiff neck against God's ordinances, and many of their hearts were not in it.
All you have to do, is let the word speak for itself, and then you will see what it is truly saying, God is good.
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Apr 19, 2021 19:07:34 GMT -5
Am I wrong in drawing parallels from the ark of the covenant to the cross of Christ?
They both were made from wood. They both represent God's Holiness.
In the case of the ark, you could not touch it or you would die. And in the case of the cross, its God's holy wrath being poured out on His Son.
Im also drawing parallels to the Tree of life in the garden.
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Post by watchful on Apr 21, 2021 6:35:15 GMT -5
Letting the word of God, speak for itself
Col 2:14-16 (14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: | Deu 31:26 (26) Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
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Both Colossians verse 14, and Deuteronomy verse 26, mention something that was against certain people, which speaks of the Jews. And Colossians mentions handwritten ordinances, and Deuteronomy mentions the book of the law. Deu 31:24 (24) And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, So Moses wrote what God had given him in a book, that was named the book of the law, so these laws were written, and the ordinances mentioned in Colossians were also written (handwritting). Here are samples, of what Moses wrote in this book: 1.- Clean and unclean meats (Leviticus 11:1-47). 2.- Nazarite vow (Numbers 6:1-8). 3. Sabbaths and non sabbaths:Sabbaths
1.Feast of Unleavened Bread (Leviticus 23:6-7 , “…feast of unleavened bread…In the first day …ye shall do no servile work therein”)
2.Last day of Unleavened Bread (Leviticus 23:6 .” seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.” , Leviticus 23:8 , “in the seventh day… ye shall do no servile work therein.”
3.Pentecost, 50th day (Leviticus 23:16 , “shall ye number fifty days” , Leviticus 23:21 , “proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein”)
4.Feast of Trumpets (Leviticus 23:24-25 , “…shall ye have a Sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets … Ye shall do no servile work therein”)
5.Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:27-28 , “…shall be a day of atonement … And ye shall do no work in that same day…”)
6.Feast of Tabernacles (Leviticus 23:34-35 , “…feast of tabernacles for seven days … On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.”)
7.Last day of Feast of Tabernacles (Leviticus 23:36 , “…the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; … ye shall do no servile work therein.”)
| Non-Sabbaths
1.The Passover (Leviticus 23:5 , “…fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover”)
2.Wave sheaf (Leviticus 23:9-11 , “…he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it”)
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And we can see how this would fit with Colossians verse 16, which says: Col 2:16 (16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: A drink ordinance would fit with the Nazarite vow, which was written, a meat ordinance would fit with the clean and unclean meats ordinance which was written, and the sabbath days would fit with the sabbath days that were mentioned in the book of the law, which were written, and holydays would fit with all the holy days mentioned under the old covenant, whether a sabbath or non-sabbath, which was written.
What was blotted out, according to Colossians? The handwritten ordinances !!!
So that means that those ordinances are no longer bidding under the New covenant.
Were was this book of the law placed, that contained these ordinances?
Deu 31:26 (26) Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
It was placed on the side of the ark, and not inside the ark, so what was blotted out, according to Colossians was these handwritten ordinances that was placed in the side of the ark, and not inside the ark.
What was placed inside the ark, was the 10 commandments.
And how was these ordinances a witness against the Jews?
Deu 31:27 (27) For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?
Well it was a witness especially against the Jews who were stiff necked, for it was not against them because these ordinances were wrong, but rather because of their stiff neck against God's ordinances, and many of their hearts were not in it.
All you have to do, is let the word speak for itself, and then you will see what it is truly saying, God is good.
Do you agree that the Law is also really a witness against all of fallen humanity brother.....the fallen flesh nature, the 'old man'? All have sinned and fallen short of the glory, for there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. The Law indicts us all and condemns all to death. This is why it still tutors us to know our need of Christ, because we all fall short in some ways. In our flesh dwells no good thing. Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Thankfully the children of God are set at liberty from the Law, from the curse of the Law...condemnation...or we would all still be hellbound, because there is no believer who never offends against God's standard of perfection along the way, in some form or other, knowingly or unknowingly. (And how can one even repent from unknown sins...that's why the priests were to make sacrifices for the people's sins committed unknowingly...so the blood of Jesus covers us when we sin unknowingly as well.) Christ BECAME sin for us that we would BECOME the righteousness of God (imputed). Love covers a multitude of sins, because without Christ we ARE sin. He ever lives to make intercession for us because we need Him to. Thinking in terms that salvation is not just a 'one & done' moment in time, it's also a journey, a pilgrimage. After leaving Egypt and crossing the Red Sea, we are going on to perfection...aiming for the Promised Land.
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Post by davidsheep88 on Apr 22, 2021 0:09:34 GMT -5
To fulfill is to love for the law. The fulfilment of the law like paul says is " love " simple as that.
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Post by watchful on Apr 22, 2021 7:07:07 GMT -5
To fulfill is to love for the law. The fulfilment of the law like paul says is " love " simple as that. Amen....and God is love...His Spirit in us.
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Post by John on Apr 22, 2021 8:51:45 GMT -5
Of course a checklist does not save us, it is Christ that saves us, but in surrendering our lives to Jesus, we then start to be conformed to his image, and in faith there are actions, now the actions themselves are not what saves, but if your faith is real, it will have actions,, and to love there are actions, as this scripture says: Joh 14:15 (15) If ye love me, keep my commandments. If there are no actions, then is the faith even real? And we obey knowing we have been redeemed, for that is what the redeemed do, they obey what God says to do, and reject what God rejects. So when I hear things about no do's and dont's I get concerned, and many in the once saved always saved movement, will say you are saved no matter what, no matter what you do, and I know you do not say that Watchful, just I get concerned about the issue of do's and dont's, for the New Testament as all kinds of do's and dont's. God love you. I'm just trying to express the difference between serving in the old way of letter as opposed to the new way of the spirit brother. Hard to put into words . It's a matter of how we are approaching it ...whether we're still under the governance of rules & regulations and self-effort, or if we've come to the end of that, being governed by the Holy Spirit who quickens us to obey the Lord as living sacrifices. Certainly not denying all the many teachings in scripture that we need to have upon our hearts, to heed them, not at all, heaven forbid. What I am having a hard time with is this notion there is no effort on our part if we are led of the Spirit. We are told to resist the devil. That requires effort. We are taught to mortify the deeds of the flesh, more effort. We are given a lot of dos and don'ts. Sometimes that requires us to do things we do not want to. Can you better explain this?
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Post by frienduff on Apr 22, 2021 12:59:12 GMT -5
I'm just trying to express the difference between serving in the old way of letter as opposed to the new way of the spirit brother. Hard to put into words . It's a matter of how we are approaching it ...whether we're still under the governance of rules & regulations and self-effort, or if we've come to the end of that, being governed by the Holy Spirit who quickens us to obey the Lord as living sacrifices. Certainly not denying all the many teachings in scripture that we need to have upon our hearts, to heed them, not at all, heaven forbid. What I am having a hard time with is this notion there is no effort on our part if we are led of the Spirit. We are told to resist the devil. That requires effort. We are taught to mortify the deeds of the flesh, more effort. We are given a lot of dos and don'ts. Sometimes that requires us to do things we do not want to. Can you better explain this?
There is a reason why the true apostles reminded the church . IT was BY THE SPIRIT . GOD KNOWS < JESUS KNOWS HOW TO KEEP US SAFE . While on earth WHY do we THINK JESUS constantly reminded , TO BE DOERS . WHY DO WE THINK the APOSTELS DID . THEY KNEW JOHN . THEY KNEW FOLKS COULD FALL AWAY . THEY WROTE BY THE SPIRIT , THEY reminded to WORK that salvatoin out , to be hearers and doers . AND DID SO BY THE SPIRIT JUST LIKE JESUS DID . WE BEEN DUPED , THIS GENERATION IS TANKED my FRIEND . ITS Got so bad , that even a few at another site are now attacking those who even say , WE MUST BELIEVE and ENDURE TO THE END . Calling them anti christs . YEAH , i got called an anti Christ yet again , as did another on that site . AND WHY , FOR WARNING and REMINDING With the very WORDS OF JESUS and the Apostles . IF THEY WARNED , I WARN . WE ALL WARN and REMIND . FEAST ON THAT BIBLE JOHN . AND DO SO LIKE YOU have NEVER DONE BEFORE . WE ALL MUST . ALL OF US . IT dont matter how much , BY GRACE I HAVE READ IT , I TOO MUST INCREASE in it . WE ARE SEEING A MASSIVE DELUSION and ANYTHING GOD INSPIRES is GOOD FOR US . THUS STICK TO THE BIBLE . AND I need to be more specific . WHEN I SAY BIBLE , I MEAN KJV . LET THEM MOCK . BUT I KNOW which bible is best . I KNOW ITS THE KJV . I KNOW IT JOHN . I DONT THINK IT , I KNOW IT . WE GOTTA DO EVERYTHING NOW TO LOOK OUT FOR THE LAMBS WE LOVE and to win souls .
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Post by watchful on Apr 22, 2021 16:25:38 GMT -5
I'm just trying to express the difference between serving in the old way of letter as opposed to the new way of the spirit brother. Hard to put into words . It's a matter of how we are approaching it ...whether we're still under the governance of rules & regulations and self-effort, or if we've come to the end of that, being governed by the Holy Spirit who quickens us to obey the Lord as living sacrifices. Certainly not denying all the many teachings in scripture that we need to have upon our hearts, to heed them, not at all, heaven forbid. What I am having a hard time with is this notion there is no effort on our part if we are led of the Spirit. We are told to resist the devil. That requires effort. We are taught to mortify the deeds of the flesh, more effort. We are given a lot of dos and don'ts. Sometimes that requires us to do things we do not want to. Can you better explain this?
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live Well, this is how I see it brother....for the most part when we came to Christ and received His Spirit (His nature) we began to walk after that new nature, no longer after our old nature. Not many true believers (once they are established in the faith at least), are embezzling money from their employers, getting into fist-fights or killing people, habitually telling lies, cussing a blue streak, drinking and partying with the world, or running around on their spouses. The Spirit within us lets our conscience know not to do those things. Without any effort on our part we just found ourself overall turned away from our old life of whatever sins we were doing and began to live differently, going in another direction. Whether we realize it or not that is the affect of the Holy Spirit in us, He doesn't announce it in any way and we mostly don't perceive it, but it's not our own righteousness. If we are being confronted with a particular temptation I wonder if sometimes what people are perceiving as self-effort might be the spiritual battle that is taking place within them, whether to submit to the Spirit or to the temptation, the flesh battling the Spirit and the Spirit battling the flesh.
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Post by frienduff on Apr 22, 2021 21:01:58 GMT -5
What I am having a hard time with is this notion there is no effort on our part if we are led of the Spirit. We are told to resist the devil. That requires effort. We are taught to mortify the deeds of the flesh, more effort. We are given a lot of dos and don'ts. Sometimes that requires us to do things we do not want to. Can you better explain this?
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live Well, this is how I see it brother....for the most part when we came to Christ and received His Spirit (His nature) we began to walk after that new nature, no longer after our old nature. Not many true believers (once they are established in the faith at least), are embezzling money from their employers, getting into fist-fights or killing people, habitually telling lies, cussing a blue streak, drinking and partying with the world, or running around on their spouses. The Spirit within us lets our conscience know not to do those things. Without any effort on our part we just found ourself overall turned away from our old life of whatever sins we were doing and began to live differently, going in another direction. Whether we realize it or not that is the affect of the Holy Spirit in us, He doesn't announce it in any way and we mostly don't perceive it, but it's not our own righteousness. If we are being confronted with a particular temptation I wonder if sometimes what people are perceiving as self-effort might be the spiritual battle that is taking place within them, whether to submit to the Spirit or to the temptation, the flesh battling the Spirit and the Spirit battling the flesh. Yep . that is how it was on may thirtieth of two thousand and six . God just drew me to saving faith in Christ and set whole new affections in my heart . The desire to Know Him and to flee evil . Yep . so now by that same spirit we must daily exhort one another to maintain good works and to flee even the appearance of evil . Reminders are well needed . The SPIRIT knows this , its why it has lambs reminding lambs to be hearers and doers of the Word . Call it being stirred up , peter did . So long as i am in this tabernacle i shall stir you up to remembrance . Even though he says , EVEN THOUGH ye be established in the truth . That flesh has one nasty nature and by the SPIRIT we need good exhortations to remind us and stir us up .
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Post by watchful on Apr 23, 2021 5:55:38 GMT -5
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live Well, this is how I see it brother....for the most part when we came to Christ and received His Spirit (His nature) we began to walk after that new nature, no longer after our old nature. Not many true believers (once they are established in the faith at least), are embezzling money from their employers, getting into fist-fights or killing people, habitually telling lies, cussing a blue streak, drinking and partying with the world, or running around on their spouses. The Spirit within us lets our conscience know not to do those things. Without any effort on our part we just found ourself overall turned away from our old life of whatever sins we were doing and began to live differently, going in another direction. Whether we realize it or not that is the affect of the Holy Spirit in us, He doesn't announce it in any way and we mostly don't perceive it, but it's not our own righteousness. If we are being confronted with a particular temptation I wonder if sometimes what people are perceiving as self-effort might be the spiritual battle that is taking place within them, whether to submit to the Spirit or to the temptation, the flesh battling the Spirit and the Spirit battling the flesh. Yep . that is how it was on may thirtieth of two thousand and six . God just drew me to saving faith in Christ and set whole new affections in my heart . The desire to Know Him and to flee evil . Yep . so now by that same spirit we must daily exhort one another to maintain good works and to flee even the appearance of evil . Reminders are well needed . The SPIRIT knows this , its why it has lambs reminding lambs to be hearers and doers of the Word . Call it being stirred up , peter did . So long as i am in this tabernacle i shall stir you up to remembrance . Even though he says , EVEN THOUGH ye be established in the truth . That flesh has one nasty nature and by the SPIRIT we need good exhortations to remind us and stir us up . Let the word of God be preached, brother. It is mighty in the Spirit....it sanctifies and cleanses us through the washing of water by the word.
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Post by frienduff on Apr 23, 2021 20:26:37 GMT -5
And let the glorious LORD be praised .
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