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Post by 2fw8212a on Jul 7, 2018 13:32:59 GMT -5
At the same time, if you don't have the knowledge of God's Word hidden in your heart, how can the Spirit bring forth that truth from an empty vessel?
Yes, I believe it has something to do with the gift of knowledge.
People who have lots of scripture in their minds can be used to manifest knowledge they eventually need at that time.
Many times, the person did not even know of that knowledge before.
I believe it is the Spirit that gives immediate understanding and start bringing Scriptures to mind and how it connects to the present situation.
Sometimes even the person who never thought about it just learns something they did not know about.
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Post by frienduff on Jul 7, 2018 13:42:53 GMT -5
Exactly butero. THE LOVE GOD SHEDS ON OUR HEARTS , IT WOULD PUT US IN THOSE BIBLES . YES , YES , YES . And We need to feast upon it daily . OH , I want everone to put their hands up and just praise the LORD and bask in the ever wonder awe of the beauty of HIS TRUTH . THEIR IS NOTHING , absolutely NOTHING that can comopare , that can have any remotely speck of dust comparision to the fulfillment THE LORD CAN GIVE US . I MEAN we can be beat down , half naked , poor , without a thing of this worlds goods , AND I GAURANTEE IF WE HAVE CHRIST , WE GONNA BE SO FULLFILLED we will be able TO REJIOCE even in the harshest darkest hour . YEAH . THIS IS fact . I have not yet experienced those types of sufferings, BUT I KNOW Better than I know my own hand , THAT MY JOY WILL ABOUND IN THE LORD no matter what comes against me . NO matter what we lose or suffer for CHRIST we will count is as SIMPLE JOY OF KNOWING THE LORD and we REJOICE , REJOICE , REJOICE even in prison we will SING . I KNOW this , WITH NO INKLING of a doubt . I cannot express in words , THE TRUE PEACE OF KNOWING JESUS , KNOWING , KNOWING , KNOWING that joy peace happiness, HAS NOTHING TO DO with the things of this world , ONLY THE JOY OF KNOWING THE LORD more and more . I just cannot put it into words to fully express this joy and knowing that HOPE and JOY will abound THROUGH ALL TIMES no matter what comes against us . THE only way I know to explain it , is to simply say, THE PEACE OF JESUS , truly passes ALL understanding . MAN, My soul is lit on fire and it is every time I point to CHRIST . THE SPIRIT IS LIFE and KNOWING CHRIST IS the abundant life , NO MATTER WHAT WE LOSE . OH man I could sing a hym right now .
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Post by tlsitd on Jul 7, 2018 16:43:11 GMT -5
The best way to really learn something is to solve it ourselves. If we don't see a question, then there's nothing to solve. We may think we know it all then. I learned by asking lots and lots of questions. Have you ever found yourself in a situation when you were a new believer and you just wanted to share the gospel, and then some wise guy who wants to catch you out and make you look foolish asks you a really hard question and you stand there all dumbfounded?, ..he walks off laughing and thinking your an idiot. You know the gospel is true, that Christ saves, but faith which starts off little like a mustard seed, can only grow the closer we grow into the Word. We want to answer like Jesus. An answer based on more than just faith, but with substance (knowledge) showing we know what we are talking about, by really knowing our Lord, that he is not just some man that died on the cross, but is so much more greater than we ever imagined, and by really knowing him, we can be prepared to make that wise guy stop and think. I was often in this situation. Stumped like a stuffed chook. Many of those questions I was asked only prompted me to seek deeper. And there I was, years later, in the company of a QC (Barrister), at his house, with two famous people, a couple, ...and the QC who is one of the best in our state asked me in front of everyone what I believed in. I told him, and he started throwing all these questions at me. All of a sudden I was put on the stand. I wasn't just up against anyone, but this guy was good, he knew what to go for. I answered every single question he threw at me and he started to get real frustrated and mad. I won the debate fair and square, but obviously his instinct was to interrogate further. The Lord helped me that night, and he helped me to remember all the things which he fed me with, and what I had learned back then, little did I know it was preparing me for this night so that I could witness to these people. When I was finished, I walked off, seething inside, seeing his arrogance fully displayed, wanting to go home, but stuck in the middle of nowhere for the night, and as I got inside, one of his guests ran after me, took me into a room and told me that was the most amazing thing she ever witnessed. She broke down and cried and we stood there together for about an hour whilst I continued with the gospel. She opened up her heart to me and confessed something, and I gave her advice from the scriptures. She thanked me so much and just hugged me crying, and told me she would take my advice. I never went back to that place again, but I thanked the Lord for sending me there, because at least one person got something out of it. Nothing I shared was my wisdom, it all came from the Lord....it's his wisdom. The truth is so simple yes, it can confound the wise, even the wisest of the wise (so called). The interesting thing about Christian knowledge is that it comes from two places, and one place at the same time. There is the knowledge we gain from studying the Scriptures, which God interprets to us by His Spirit, giving us understanding of His word and convicting us of truth, and there is the instant knowledge that the Holy Spirit gives us for a certain situation or need, which relates to what is written in His word and is more like wisdom. But both kinds of understanding come from and depend on God.
While we have a personal responsibility to pursue the former kind of knowledge (God's not going to do everything for us and give us instant wisdom and knowledge about things that we could and should be seeking for ourselves by studying His word---Jesus said "Seek, and you will find", and that responsibility and choice to seek wisdom and the knowledge of God's truth through the study of His word is ours), we aren't responsible for instant wisdom---to take the place of the Holy Spirit, who has infinite wisdom and understanding about all things and all people and is able to give us from His store as we have need and according to the will of God in every situation.
We should never feel burdened by the anxiety of needing to know everything in order to be prepared for whatever may come at us. God is in charge of that, and that's not our responsibility. We can never be prepared for everything, except that we are relying on God for all things and trusting Him to supply and to do. Relying on ourselves to do and to be what only God can do and be, and what He Himself desires to do for us and be to us, puts us in God's place in our own mind and life, which isn't what God wants.
There's nothing wrong with pursuing knowledge about various subjects to be better equipped to minister to others in a particular way (guided by faith of course), but it shouldn't take the place of relying on God to give us whatever understanding and words we may need for doing whatever His will may be. He'll bring to mind Scriptures, or give us spiritual insights, and help us to know what the right thing to say and do is in a particular situation, by His Spirit. And that's something we can and should rely on Him to do, and not think that we have to be know-it-alls to be effective Christians. We should study the word to increase our understanding of God's truth in order to use it as He desires us to in our own lives and in ministering to others, both to Christians and to the unsaved, but we shouldn't study it out of some kind of panicky desperation, as though our personal knowledge and diligent study of the Bible is all we have to rely on, and that God can't or won't give us instant understanding and reminders of things when we need them.
I know that I myself don't walk around with any burden of having to be prepared for everything that comes my way, or having to remember everything I've ever read or learned from the Scriptures, like a walking computer, and with a headache from anxiety---like a Chinese student preparing for the Gaokao! I ask Jesus to give me what I need as I need it, and He does it. And I know that I can rely on Him to bring to my remembrance things He's taught me, to give me instant wisdom, and teach me what to say to a particular person in a particular situation---just letting His Spirit guide me and work through me.
God is glorified when we use the knowledge He has given us from studying His word appropriately. He is also glorified when He gives us knowledge that we don't have when we need it. Storing up knowledge by continually studying His word is good, but it's also good to rely on God to supply what we need and to do through us what He desires at all times, and not to rely on ourselves to be the resource of all that we need.
When I think about how Paul and the other apostles preached and reasoned with people, and how Jesus Himself taught and preached, the knowledge and manner of a scholarly apologist (scribe) is not at all what comes to my mind. There's a big difference between a person who has a lot of head knowledge because he's made it his business to study a particular subject and become an expert in it, and who reasons with people intellectually, and someone who has a lot of spiritual knowledge because the Holy Spirit has taught him and who speaks with His authority and wisdom---not merely or mainly to brains but to hearts. The truths of the Bible have much more to do with the spirit of man than they do with his brain, and intellectual lectures from apologist scholars are no substitute for the convicting truth and power of the Holy Spirit when He speaks through a person.
(Listen to an apologist, and then listen to a preacher who has God-given wisdom, or to a prophet. Very different. All have knowledge, but it's not the same kind of knowledge, and it doesn't have the same target or the same effect: One goes to the brain of man (and generally doesn't do much for him) and the other goes to the heart of man and exhibits the power of God.)
While it is a good thing to study the Bible for understanding and to be knowledgeable of what it says and means (something the majority of Christians are lacking in because they don't study and don't apply what they know), that study shouldn't be a substitute for instant wisdom, but a complement to it. No matter how much we may learn, we should always be reliant on God, and not on ourselves. He wants us to be, and to be humble and trusting, rather than to get puffed up with a high opinion of ourselves on account of how much we know or think we know---even with knowledge that He has taught us from His word.
(And if we are relying too much on ourselves and our knowledge, which God knows, it's very likely that He will do or allow something to break that confidence and to bring us out of our self-reliance and to teach us to rely on Him as God.)
If we're carrying around some burden of needing to have all the answers for everything in every situation, where is our faith? And what do we need God for if we have to know everything and prepare for everything and are able to do so?
Pursuit of knowledge and wisdom for righteous reasons is a wonderful thing and pleasing to God, but we should always remember that it is not our personal preparedness or mental database that we should be trusting in (for that is trusting in self and that's not what God wants us to do) but that God is our Resource for everything we need to do His will at all times, and that He is able to give us whatever we need when we need it. We don't have to know everything. We can have confidence and peace knowing that God knows what we don't know and can give us what we need in understanding, in reminders, and in words, to do His will in any situation---that people may marvel at His power, rather than at our knowledge, and may glorify the Creator and the Source rather than the creature and the vessel.
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Post by Sister on Jul 7, 2018 19:51:55 GMT -5
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Excellent! In the beginning, was the beginning of creation, and it started with the Word. We all agree with this.
So the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
How can the Word be with God, and the Word also be God?
Is there one or two?
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
To a wise guy, looking for faults in the scriptures, this sounds like a contradiction doesn't it? "us" is plural, and "by myself" is singular.
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jul 7, 2018 20:51:07 GMT -5
If we're carrying around some burden of needing to have all the answers for everything in every situation, where is our faith? And what do we need God for if we have to know everything and prepare for everything and are able to do so? Exactly!
"Then there arose some from what is called the Synagogue of the Freedmen (Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those from Cilicia and Asia), disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke." - Acts 6:9-10
"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them..." - Acts 4:8
"...when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus." - Acts 4:13
"for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist." - Luke 21:15
Yes, they all were filled of the Holy Spirit when it happens... And we make the conclusion:
"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge...but have not love, I am nothing." - 1 Corinthians 13:2
Or, you could not be more effective without the guidance of the Holy Spirit no matter how much knowledge you have in you.
But if you believe, even if you do not have it you will still have it if you just trust in Him.
"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me." - John 15:4
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;" - Proverbs 3:5
“Do not be afraid; only believe.” - Mark 5:36
"For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”" - Romans 10:11
God bless you in Jesus' name!
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Post by Sister on Jul 7, 2018 21:37:43 GMT -5
Lets not miss the point of this thread ok?
This thread is not about opinions, or about those who think they are something great, having all knowledge, but about the Word of God. Who is he? We should at least know this.
I gave an example of the lawyer just to show that we are going to be put in difficult situations sometimes. They will attack that very word we believe in, right from the scriptures, so we ought to know how to answer, and we cannot answer something we don't fully understand.
Remember we are representing this living Word that we believe in.
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Post by Sister on Jul 7, 2018 21:52:11 GMT -5
And remember, faith alone is a testimony, however not a powerful testimony,.... but being one with the Word is. Jesus said to eat his flesh and drink his blood. The Word has to be eaten first, digested, and then washed down with a drink. We have to become one with the Word. We are what we eat, and the Word has to become a part of us (the Word has to be understood).
We are not all prophets, and when in a difficult situation the holy spirit is not going to just speak through us saying things we don't even understand ourselves? The holy spirit will guide us and bring all things to our remembrance. That's how he works. All that we have laboured for in seeking the truth will come out. He helps us to understand that Word we are feeding on so it's got some substance. This Word can have a powerful effect in some situations, because there is wisdom in God's Word, (not our words).
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Jul 8, 2018 5:32:32 GMT -5
We know in part. we are not all knowing... but the One who is all knowing lives in us. We do not know what others need to hear. But we can ask for Him to put His words in our mouth.
Psalm 81:10 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
God knows what people need to hear. Ask, seek, knock.
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Post by Sister on Jul 8, 2018 6:02:23 GMT -5
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
So how can God's Word be with him and be him at the same time? Is there one or two? Scriptures say God made all things by himself,
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Genesis says;
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Do you understand how there is a question here?
It's really quite simple.
Before God started creating, ...before he spoke and brought things into existence, there was just God there alone....with his Word inside him.
God is spirit. His Word inside him is also spirit, but he hasn't spoken yet. There is just silence and all of God's wisdom inside him, not yet brought out.
God already planned and knows that when HIS WORD comes out of his mouth, it is going to bring into existence what God wants to make and reveal. He knows that his Word is going to obey him and do exactly as he commands. And God has already planned that HIS WORD is going to be something very special, and be glorified because it's of him.
So When God spoke, his Word which is spirit came out of him and obeyed God's command.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
All things were made through the Word of God, by the breath of his mouth, his spoken Word.
Psalms 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Therefore, Jesus, who is called the Word of God, came out of God when God spoke.
John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
So Jesus, when he came out of the Father as his spoken Word, which is spirit, was not known as Jesus yet, but known only as THE WORD OF GOD. Note: The Word of God is still God. It's God speaking. There is no one else but him and his own Word. (not somebody else's word)
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
And up until a certain time,....Who was made flesh? Was it God, or his Word?
Well read it again, it says his Word was made flesh. That same Word that was with God in the beginning, and before that inside him, which came out of him when he spoke, was kept in store to be translated into flesh and be glorified.
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
So where there was once "one", now there is "two".
Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
The Word of God, the breath of God's mouth, his spoken Word, who was there "with God" in the beginning (of creation) was translated in flesh, born of a woman, fathered by God himself (his own DNA), and now becomes his own separate identity who dwelt with man, suffered the same pain as men, and died like a man, remaining faithful to his Father in total obedience even until death....was raised up to sit on "the right hand side" of the Father, showing there is two now. When Christ's work is finished he will go back inside the Father.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2018 7:08:06 GMT -5
We could say that Jesus was the fruit/child of God's lips. Nice study Sister, thank you. It's interesting too, because I had just been pondering on this very thing a couple of days ago, how Jesus was/is the WORD made flesh. Blessed be the name of the Lord, He never ceases to amaze.
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Post by John on Jul 8, 2018 9:20:07 GMT -5
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Excellent! In the beginning, was the beginning of creation, and it started with the Word. We all agree with this. So the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
How can the Word be with God, and the Word also be God? Is there one or two? Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
To a wise guy, looking for faults in the scriptures, this sounds like a contradiction doesn't it? "us" is plural, and "by myself" is singular. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
This is only complicated for someone who doesn't understand the trinity. God is three persons in one: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and all three are one. That is no different than how a body has many members, but they are all one body.
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Post by John on Jul 8, 2018 9:25:44 GMT -5
Lets not miss the point of this thread ok? This thread is not about opinions, or about those who think they are something great, having all knowledge, but about the Word of God. Who is he? We should at least know this. I gave an example of the lawyer just to show that we are going to be put in difficult situations sometimes. They will attack that very word we believe in, right from the scriptures, so we ought to know how to answer, and we cannot answer something we don't fully understand. Remember we are representing this living Word that we believe in. If we simply read the Bible on a regular basis, we have it on the inside, even if we don't have complete understanding, and the Spirit can bring it back to our remembrance, with the proper understanding. That is quite different from studying a particular topic. The Bible does tell us to study to show ourselves approved. God wants us to study scripture as well, and when we are having trouble understanding something, we can turn to the Holy Spirit, who is our teacher and guide, and ask for help understanding it. What I don't think works is looking to a bunch of commentaries and web-sites for answers. All you get is opinions, and too many will simply accept what they read as fact and move on, even if what they read is a lie. Then they repeat the lies.
There is a balance here. We need to read scriptures. We need to study scriptures. We also need to realize that the Holy Spirit can impart knowledge directly to us.
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Post by tlsitd on Jul 8, 2018 9:38:38 GMT -5
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
So how can God's Word be with him and be him at the same time? Is there one or two? Scriptures say God made all things by himself, Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Genesis says; Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Do you understand how there is a question here? It's really quite simple. Before God started creating, ...before he spoke and brought things into existence, there was just God there alone....with his Word inside him. God is spirit. His Word inside him is also spirit, but he hasn't spoken yet. There is just silence and all of God's wisdom inside him, not yet brought out. God already planned and knows that when HIS WORD comes out of his mouth, it is going to bring into existence what God wants to make and reveal. He knows that his Word is going to obey him and do exactly as he commands. And God has already planned that HIS WORD is going to be something very special, and be glorified because it's of him. So When God spoke, his Word which is spirit came out of him and obeyed God's command. John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
All things were made through the Word of God, by the breath of his mouth, his spoken Word. Psalms 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Therefore, Jesus, who is called the Word of God, came out of God when God spoke.
John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
So Jesus, when he came out of the Father as his spoken Word, which is spirit, was not known as Jesus yet, but known only as THE WORD OF GOD. Note: The Word of God is still God. It's God speaking. There is no one else but him and his own Word. (not somebody else's word)
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
And up until a certain time,....Who was made flesh? Was it God, or his Word? Well read it again, it says his Word was made flesh. That same Word that was with God in the beginning, and before that inside him, which came out of him when he spoke, was kept in store to be translated into flesh and be glorified. John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
So where there was once "one", now there is "two". Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
The Word of God, the breath of God's mouth, his spoken Word, who was there "with God" in the beginning (of creation) was translated in flesh, born of a woman, fathered by God himself (his own DNA), and now becomes his own separate identity who dwelt with man, suffered the same pain as men, and died like a man, remaining faithful to his Father in total obedience even until death....was raised up to sit on "the right hand side" of the Father, showing there is two now. When Christ's work is finished he will go back inside the Father. 1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. Sister, God is one, and He has always been three distinct Persons. Jesus didn't come into being at any time, nor was He ever a spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45 does not mean that Jesus became a spirit, but is a reference to the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of Christ, and of God the Father, and who gives life to those in whom He dwells, who receive Him through faith in Jesus Christ.)
Jesus is the eternal second Person of God and has always been fully human and fully God and the living word of God---the embodiment of God's spoken word, which is truth, who works according to that word. When God created the world, God the Father spoke His word through God the Son, and that is what John is referring to at the beginning of the gospel of John---not that Jesus was only the spoken word (or "breath") of God the Father's mouth before He was born on earth and was not an eternally existing Person distinct from the Father.
Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, not because He was created, but according to His birth as a natural human being, His death, and His resurrection, being the first of many brothers who would be born again new creatures in the same way, through faith in Him---born naturally, crucified to sin and the power of the sinful nature by grace through faith, buried by spiritual immersion in the baptism of the Spirit, and spiritually resurrected to new life in Christ, and ultimately to ascend with Him at His return---and children of God by that same faith and spiritual regeneration. (See John 1:12,13; Romans 8:29; 1 Corinthians 15:20-23)
No Person of God has ever been created, and no Person of God has ever been or will ever become any other Person of God. God does not change. He is eternally the same. As He has always been, so He will always be.
The nature and working of the Trinity is a mystery that has confused many people for ages, and cults and false religions and unsaved people who do not have the Spirit of God twist the truth about it left and right, trying to understand it with their futile natural understanding and confusing it in the process, or simply denying it. (And Jesus is the Person they have the biggest problem with, because He is the Person through whom people are saved, and it is the truth about Him that demons oppose most fiercely for that reason.)
Jesus is the original human, on whom Adam, the man of dust, was modeled. God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are invisible spirits (John 1:18, 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17, 6:15,16; Colossians 1:15). Jesus Christ is the visible Person of God, and the first natural human was modeled after His form:
Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness..." ...So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Genesis 1:26,27)
God is one God with three Persons, and all the Persons of God were active and working together as one in the creation of all things---God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They are three distinct Persons of a single God and always have been. Jesus didn't become human for the first time when He was born of a virgin; He has always been human. He became a mortal, natural human (without the sinful nature) when He was born of Mary. That's all that the "Word became flesh" means, not that Jesus wasn't human, or didn't exist as a distinct Person of God prior to being born on earth.
The human form that Jesus Christ now has is the same form He had from eternity, which He returned to when He ascended---a spiritual, human body, just like the body Christians are going to receive when He returns, which will be imperishable (spirit, not flesh).
"And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory that I had with You before the world existed." (John 17:5) (We can get an idea of what that glorified appearance is from Revelation 1:13-16, which is the same appearance described in Daniel 7:9.)
Jesus Christ being "in" the Father has to do with His oneness with the Father in Godhood (they are one God, and of one mind), not with Him being "reabsorbed" into the Father! Jesus has always been in the Father, and He has always been distinct from Him. He will never be absorbed into God the Father or become the Father.
His subjection to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) has to do with the way that God operates according to His own will, and with how God the Father is and will be working through the Son now and in future. It has nothing to do with Jesus being subject to the Father's authority in the future in some way He hasn't always been; the Father has always been greater than the Son according to the Son's eternal humanity, and the Son has always done the will of the Father, which will has always been the will of the Son also.
Christians are "in Christ" because we are united with Him in spirit. Are we going to be 'absorbed' into God the Father at some point in the future, that we may be "in" Him? "...That they may all be one, just as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be in us...I in them and You in Me, that they may be one even as We are one." (John 17:21,23)
Being "in God" has nothing to do with absorption or assimilation of persons. It has everything to do with spiritual unity and oneness of mind and character. The Son is in the Father, the Father is in the Son, and the Spirit of the Father and of the Son dwells in the Father and in the Son and in those are born again while also being a distinct Person with the same character and will as the Father and the Son, who is not confined to one place (He can be in all places at once; see Psalm 139:7,8). Thereby we (Christians) are in God and He in us, by His Spirit. (Romans 8:9; 1 John 4:13-15)
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. (1 John 5:20)
Why do you make simple truths complicated? It's almost as if you want the Scriptures to be more complicated than they are and to turn truth on its head. The deeper understanding of things you think you are getting from the Scriptures is not deeper truth but confusion due to misunderstanding and deception. I'm not being mean, just honest and matter-of-fact. (It wouldn't do much good for me to add 'in love' as it probably wouldn't be believed and would seem to be phony.)
I've observed and commented on this more than once on threads of yours, for your own benefit and the benefit of others who are reading your posts.
The understanding of spiritual truths and of the Scriptures depends upon God. Otherwise we cannot understand them or know what is correct. This seems to be a truth that you reject.
It is my opinion that you are relying on your brain and not on God, which is why your interpretation and understanding of Scripture is off. You're "seeing" things in the Scriptures that aren't there, making connections between things that aren't related, and coming to conclusions that aren't correct based on your own interpretation and understanding of God's word with your brain, rather than actually being taught His objective truth by His Spirit. (Not to mention whatever reading the apocrypha and accepting all of what is in them as inerrant and Spirit-inspired truth like the Canon has contributed to your confusion.) And there's nothing humanly possible that can be done about this problem, because it is of a spiritual nature and only God can fix it. He is the interpreter of His word, and He gives the right understanding of it to those who are truly in Him, and to those who obey Him and do what pleases Him, not to those who are not and do not. That's just a fact.
Whether either of those things is the case with you, I do not know, but God knows, and one thing is certain---you really need Him to teach you from His word, because the truth you think you're getting from the Scriptures isn't truth, and it's not coming from God. I can only judge what I see, and if someone's understanding of the Scriptures is consistently way off base and upside down, I know that there's a spiritual issue underlying the confusion. You can call me judgmental if you want, but everyone can read the New Testament for themselves and see what it says about confusion about the spiritual truths of Scripture, and that this is almost always connected to the one confused being either spiritually impure or in sin of some kind, or their not being genuinely born again. That's what the Bible says about it, not me, and I do have the authority to affirm what the Scriptures themselves make clear.
I'm not going to comment any more on this thread, because I see it as a symptom of a more serious underlying issue that needs to be addressed, and if it is not, more error will continue to pour from the same wound, and trying to correct it is a waste of time that will only lead to quarreling and endless debates over Scripture, to no benefit to yourself, and which will be a distraction from dealing with the underlying issue, which I don't want to encourage.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Jul 8, 2018 9:54:45 GMT -5
This is what happens when I go on vacation! I can check in on my phone, but I miss the chance to really contribute in a good thread.
As usual, several different issues have collided in this thread. Let me see if I can briefly touch on each one. This is not me trying to announce the final word on something. I offer my personal perspective.
You all know where I stand on dangerous, unnecessary spiritual adventurism. I'm the first to sound a warning about unprofitable pursuits. However, that doesn't mean it's a sin to ask complex questions, especially on the person of Jesus. Many, many Christians struggle with their beliefs because things like the Trinity seem confusing/illogical yet they're led to believe there are no sensible answers and it's a sin to confess their disappointment. After a while, when they're unable to make any sense of their beliefs, their theology becomes a fairy tale that's divorced from reason.
God's wisdom seems foolish to the world, but that doesn't mean it's contradictory gibberish. Blind irrational faith is what enables cult leaders. Let us be diligent to pursue the person of God that we may know Him and be known by Him, casting down every imagination that opposes Him.
When it comes to answering questions from others, I'm with Sister. We saw two people on this thread get the same inspiration about "In the beginning..." but let's be honest, both of them were already familiar with Genesis. Yes, the Holy Spirit quickened them to recall Genesis, but the word was already implanted in their hearts.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)
He allows us to remember what Jesus said. When Peter and John stood on trial, and we read their court testimonies in Acts, they didn't spontaneously introduce new knowledge. The Holy Spirit emboldened them to testify on what they saw with their own eyes, reconciling this truth with Scripture they had studied. Philip evangelized the Ethiopian official by expounding on Isaiah.
A Christian who has a good solid grasp of his doctrine is better fit to evangelize on it. Whether or not he is called upon to explain the person of Jesus as God's Word, the fact of the matter is, confidence makes a difference. We ought to be fully persuaded, always able to give an answer, and secure in our position. When a Christian seems to be hedging or tip-toeing around certain details, a talented skeptic, such as the lawyer who went after Sister, will be skilled enough to smell blood in the water, and that lack of confidence will be exploited.
I ask you all to consider the plight of Jehovah's Witnesses. Christians are able to blow apart JW theology using 1 or 2 strategic sentences in the gospels. One little twist of a very tiny screw can unravel us.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jul 8, 2018 9:57:42 GMT -5
God wants us to study scripture as well, and when we are having trouble understanding something, we can turn to the Holy Spirit, who is our teacher and guide, and ask for help understanding it.
Even when people study it... I sincerely do not know how people study Scriptures...
I do not study, I just read... The closest I get to studying is when I read something and keep pondering on it during the day, this is when knowledge and understanding come to me.
I already got understanding from reading in real time, but it is not so common to happen.
I have learned more by pondering what I have read and by discussing with others as we are doing here.
But when it comes to studying traditions, objects, meanings of certain actions and behavior you found in the Bible then I do not study this.
Because I am much more interested in the spiritual living that pleases God; to walk according to His commandments and directions.
But each one with their faith according to their calling... God bless you all in Jesus' name!
"...He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks." - Romans 14:6
"For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself." - Romans 14:7
"Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." - 1 Corinthians 10:31
"Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him." - Romans 14:3
"For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ." - 1 Corinthians 12:12
"And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?" - 1 Corinthians 12:16
"If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?" - 1 Corinthians 12:17
"Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them..." - Romans 12:6
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