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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2018 9:59:24 GMT -5
How I understand it, is that what Sister is saying is in a manner of speaking, and who can fathom these things entirely......but if we try to set it in cement of our carnal minds we will see it as literal and incorrect. That is a danger concerning any truth actually, and a tendency of the flesh. The point here is that the Word and Spirit were sent forth from the Father....in the beginning. And one day Christ will be in the Father again (in a manner of speaking)...in the end. I enjoyed the study.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jul 8, 2018 10:11:53 GMT -5
The person of Jesus is bigger than His relation to Earth. To say He came into being (as a person) just for us is awfully self-centered, as I see it.
And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." (Luke 10:18)
I can't imagine why Jesus would say He saw that if He was only a figment in the Father's mind at the time. Jesus spoke of Himself as a real person alongside Father, never implying nor indicating there was a time otherwise.
He's the lamb slain since the foundation of the world, simply because there was nothing for Him to die for before then. He is the Word since the beginning of creation, simply because God didn't need a word about Himself before then. He is the Father's Word to us, the lamb slain for us, the light of the world for us. These attributes became His at the beginning of our creation, but He was a person before then.
These are important questions to make sure we understand. But at the end of the day, as I see it, any and all attempts to limit Jesus' place in the Trinity must be rejected.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jul 8, 2018 10:21:05 GMT -5
To say He came into being (as a person) just for us is awfully self-centered, as I see it. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." - John 6:38
"And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." - Mark 12:33
"Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." - Luke 22:42
"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me." - John 6:57
"And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him." - John 8:29
"As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love." - John 15:9
"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." - Mark 10:45
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16
"We love Him because He first loved us." - 1 John 4:19
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jul 8, 2018 10:37:14 GMT -5
Let me also add here (as humbly and diplomatically as I can) that these questions have been wrestled by theologians for centuries. A great many Spirit-filled teachers have left us wise words on the person of Jesus. There's really no need for us to re-invent the wheel because we don't think we need to honor our elders. My thoughts on the person of Jesus have been forged through the years by study of Scripture, time in prayer, and counsel sought from other Christians I trust.
Yes, we must be careful to not base our doctrines on the half-baked opinions of others. But on the other hand, Scripture speaks highly of righteous counsel. We shouldn't ignore the wisdom of our brethren to be a vigilante.
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Post by Sister on Jul 8, 2018 11:42:13 GMT -5
Sister, God is one, and He has always been three distinct Persons. Jesus didn't come into being at any time, nor was He ever a spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45 does not mean that Jesus became a spirit, but is a reference to the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of Christ, and of God the Father, and who gives life to those in whom He dwells, who receive Him through faith in Jesus Christ.) I never said that Jesus was created, but stated that Jesus is the Word of God who was always inside the Father, but brought out at a particular time....when? In the beginning when God started creating. Before that the Word was inside the Father. ....And the Word was God. I never quoted 1 Corinth 15:45? 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. This is comparing flesh to the spirit? Jesus was not the Son before he was born. When he was born he became the son. It was always in God's plans for his Word to be made into flesh at a certain point in time, and become his son. You are going into a direction that I never mentioned. Jesus was the "firstborn" of all "creation", meaning he was the firstborn "raised from the dead" Simple. I never stated otherwise. God said he changed his Word into Flesh? John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The Word has changed form - from spirit to flesh. We cannot see spirit, but we can see flesh.
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Post by Sister on Jul 8, 2018 12:38:15 GMT -5
The trinity is not mentioned in the bible, but is an interpretation, a doctrine. How about we use God's lingo? 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The Father (creator), his Word (Christ), and the Holy Ghost (spirit of truth). All three work as one. Are you in charge of your word? Yes. Does your word control you? Do you speak before you think? I should hope not. God controls his Word. He tells his Word what to do and his Word obeys. God's Word does not control him.
To me it's not complicated once I understood. Jesus said NO MAN knoweth the Father but the Son, and the Son but the Father, and to WHOM he will reveal it to. NO MAN means NO MAN, unless it is revealed. So according to many this means EVERYONE KNOWS? Jesus laid down a clue for us to consider. Consider his Words, what the Word of God is saying and trying to show us. Don't fight it, the Word of God is knocking at the door and many are not letting him inside. Ok, but that is just your opinion, and probably everyone else's here. I am not here to brag about myself but brag about truth, how beautiful it is to the beholder once you can truly see something that is revealed. We are supposed to study the Word. Seek and ye shall find. All the pearls are found in there if we are hungry. God gave us a brain to read, think, ask questions, put clues together to show we are really hungry and hanging on his every word. If we don't want to continue learning, we will stay stunted and not find true doctrine for ourselves, but put our trust into man made doctrines. This is hard for most to understand because they never heard this song before, and I am not finished with this thread yet. This is the problem. People don't trust when Jesus said he would feed us himself. Instead they go join a church thinking that all the truth is in there given by the preacher. What they don't realise is that the preacher comes under a certain umbrella and he has to teach what the denomination dictates whether it makes sense to him or not, or he's out. If he doesn't believe all of the doctrine already laid out, he goes to a different denomination to his taste, and has to teach what they teach, same again. There is no room for growing. It's all laid out. Don't question, and don't ever change the doctrine, but stick to the schedule. Christ invited all of us to take his manual called the holy bible and use it for instruction on an individual personal level. This is a labour of love. If we love the Word we love Christ, simple, because he is the Word of God. I know many cannot understand this. I did not come to the scriptures already filled with a doctrine, but came as a child knowing nothing, ready to be taught. I noticed that knowledge straight from the scriptures is despised. Anyone who wants to discuss something that's really close to the truth is rejected, yet those who preach against the truth are very much revered. I noticed that the Christian world is truly lagging behind and missing out on so much. So many have been truly robbed of their treasures and don't even know it. Even though some claim they are not with any church, many still hold their teachings, their doctrine. This is the hardest type to reach. Indoctrination has been deeply ingrained, and the most basic fundamentals are from the mother church, the Roman church. Consider it, and you will see it's true. Compare to someone that hasn't been indoctrinated, that has a deep love for the Lord and you will find that they have been shown so much more, because that Word of God is feeding them. Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. Luke 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. Ask the Lord show you what this truly means, and he is not just speaking about Jews.
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Post by Sister on Jul 8, 2018 12:44:41 GMT -5
I would be grateful if some of you would stop putting words into my mouth. My thread is not yet finished. I've had a busy day, and tomorrow will be the same, and the next day. I will get on here and there when I can, and hopefully answer all your replies.
Thank you for reading anyway.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jul 8, 2018 12:48:46 GMT -5
i certainly don’t want to offend anyone. It’s best for me to back off now. My thoughts on this topic are known, and there’s no more I can do about it. Since it is thrown in my face at every turn that “some of us” are indoctrinated by false church teachings, I see no reason to engage on these threads any further.
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Post by Sister on Jul 8, 2018 16:04:49 GMT -5
i certainly don’t want to offend anyone. It’s best for me to back off now. My thoughts on this topic are known, and there’s no more I can do about it. Since it is thrown in my face at every turn that “some of us” are indoctrinated by false church teachings, I see no reason to engage on these threads any further. I couldn't sleep tonight, and here I am up at 5.03am checking in. Pg I wasn't referring to you I can assure you. I loved your replies. I welcome your opinion also, as you are a real thinker also.
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Post by Sister on Jul 8, 2018 16:52:45 GMT -5
We could say that Jesus was the fruit/child of God's lips. Nice study Sister, thank you. It's interesting too, because I had just been pondering on this very thing a couple of days ago, how Jesus was/is the WORD made flesh. Blessed be the name of the Lord, He never ceases to amaze. Hi watchful I am glad you are enjoying this. Psalms 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
That breath of his mouth is when God speaks his Word. It has power and glory. It's not just any old word, but a living word. The Word was always there, always "hidden" with God inside him, but came out at a certain point to have a share in all creation. All is created through the Word, by the Word and for the Word. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.When God made his Word into flesh, he didn't create anything that didn't exist, for the Word always existed inside God, was there from everlasting, no beginning, but God sent him forth when he was ready to create. Brang him out in the open so to speak. I know you never said this, but I am saying Jesus is not a creature,...we are creatures, angels are creatures, beasts are creatures. Jesus was just changed from spirit to flesh....transformed...given his own identity, made into the image of God, and given a name that we can call upon. God had to do it this way, for no man can look at the face of God and live. God is too bright and flesh cannot take that brightness, that holiness. So God changed his Word into flesh so that we could behold him,...see him, hear him, and have him dwell amongst us like a man, going through all the pains and sufferings that we do, and to teach us. The apostles and many others met the Word of God in the flesh, the same Word of God that brought everything into existence, the same Word of God that spoke to Abraham, Moses, all the prophets, and who speaks to us today. He is the way, the truth and the light, no man can come to the Father but through him, his own Word, (not any other man's word) When Jesus returns, he will return as the Word of God. We of the resurrection will see him in his true form, the way the angels see him. The world cannot however, because they are flesh. Jesus will show himself to them in the flesh again, but to us in the spirit. Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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Post by John on Jul 8, 2018 22:16:15 GMT -5
God wants us to study scripture as well, and when we are having trouble understanding something, we can turn to the Holy Spirit, who is our teacher and guide, and ask for help understanding it.
Even when people study it... I sincerely do not know how people study Scriptures...
I do not study, I just read... The closest I get to studying is when I read something and keep pondering on it during the day, this is when knowledge and understanding come to me.
I already got understanding from reading in real time, but it is not so common to happen.
I have learned more by pondering what I have read and by discussing with others as we are doing here.
But when it comes to studying traditions, objects, meanings of certain actions and behavior you found in the Bible then I do not study this.
Because I am much more interested in the spiritual living that pleases God; to walk according to His commandments and directions.
But each one with their faith according to their calling... God bless you all in Jesus' name!
"...He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks." - Romans 14:6
"For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself." - Romans 14:7
"Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." - 1 Corinthians 10:31
"Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him." - Romans 14:3
"For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ." - 1 Corinthians 12:12
"And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?" - 1 Corinthians 12:16
"If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?" - 1 Corinthians 12:17
"Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them..." - Romans 12:6 Studying probably has different meanings for different people. To me, it is simply looking up definitions if I am uncertain about the meaning of a word, which isn't that often today, but was necessary when I was a younger Christian. The other thing is comparing different scriptures speaking on the same subject. That is really all study is to me. Others call studying turning to gotquestions.org, commentaries and books about Bible history and traditions. It also might mean comparing a multitude of translations and paraphrases. I don't use any of those methods, or trust them. I once had a man say he would love to see my library. I told him it was basically a King James Bible and an Abington-Strong's Concordance with Greek and Hebrew Dictionary, and that was it. I have other books laying around that I have read, but that is my study material. If I get stumped, I ask the Lord to reveal the meaning.
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Post by John on Jul 8, 2018 22:20:56 GMT -5
i certainly don’t want to offend anyone. It’s best for me to back off now. My thoughts on this topic are known, and there’s no more I can do about it. Since it is thrown in my face at every turn that “some of us” are indoctrinated by false church teachings, I see no reason to engage on these threads any further. Telling people that they are indoctrinated with false teachings and others they don't have the Spirit, so they can't understand the truth are both wrong. Don't let such comments keep you from sharing your opinion. Everyone doesn't feel that way.
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Post by Abby-Joy on Jul 9, 2018 0:04:46 GMT -5
Even when people study it... I sincerely do not know how people study Scriptures...
I do not study, I just read... The closest I get to studying is when I read something and keep pondering on it during the day, this is when knowledge and understanding come to me.
I already got understanding from reading in real time, but it is not so common to happen.
I have learned more by pondering what I have read and by discussing with others as we are doing here.
But when it comes to studying traditions, objects, meanings of certain actions and behavior you found in the Bible then I do not study this.
Because I am much more interested in the spiritual living that pleases God; to walk according to His commandments and directions.
But each one with their faith according to their calling... God bless you all in Jesus' name!
"...He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks." - Romans 14:6
"For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself." - Romans 14:7
"Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." - 1 Corinthians 10:31
"Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him." - Romans 14:3
"For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ." - 1 Corinthians 12:12
"And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?" - 1 Corinthians 12:16
"If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?" - 1 Corinthians 12:17
"Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them..." - Romans 12:6 Studying probably has different meanings for different people. To me, it is simply looking up definitions if I am uncertain about the meaning of a word, which isn't that often today, but was necessary when I was a younger Christian. The other thing is comparing different scriptures speaking on the same subject. That is really all study is to me. Others call studying turning to gotquestions.org, commentaries and books about Bible history and traditions. It also might mean comparing a multitude of translations and paraphrases. I don't use any of those methods, or trust them. I once had a man say he would love to see my library. I told him it was basically a King James Bible and an Abington-Strong's Concordance with Greek and Hebrew Dictionary, and that was it. I have other books laying around that I have read, but that is my study material. If I get stumped, I ask the Lord to reveal the meaning.
Brother, that's my kind of studying as well. I read and rely on Holy Spirit to give the understanding. If I don't understand something or have questions about something, I study it out by searching the Word, and prayer. Often times, Holy Spirit will bring something to remembrance that I didn't understand prior, at just the time I needed it. That's how He works!
I haven't been able to get on much lately, so I'm still catching up. I've read a good bit of the thread but need to read it more thoroughly. I'm not sure if this verse was quoted, but I kept being reminded of these verses:
John 8:56-58 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
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Post by justinadams on Jul 9, 2018 6:19:31 GMT -5
I never said that Jesus was created, but stated that Jesus is the Word of God who was always inside the Father, but brought out at a particular time....when? In the beginning when God started creating. Before that the Word was inside the Father. ....And the Word was God. I never quoted 1 Corinth 15:45? 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. This is comparing flesh to the spirit? Jesus was not the Son before he was born. When he was born he became the son. It was always in God's plans for his Word to be made into flesh at a certain point in time, and become his son. You are going into a direction that I never mentioned. Jesus was the "firstborn" of all "creation", meaning he was the firstborn "raised from the dead" Simple. I never stated otherwise. God said he changed his Word into Flesh? John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The Word has changed form - from spirit to flesh. We cannot see spirit, but we can see flesh. Christology is complex and prone to error if we submerge it in our own understanding. Scholars have been trying for a very long time to encapsulate the un-containable Lord. Who was in the fire and the cloud in the exodus? The messenger said OBEY or else! In the furnace 'One like the Son of Man' was seen. In the chariot of fire, one was seen in the form of a man sitting high on the chariot's throne. There are many, many instance in the Tanach where Yeshua (Yahweh is Salvation) was described as messenger and representative. He sometimes directed His Angelic forces to wipe out armies for the Israelis. He sometimes appeared in a whirlwind. Sometimes He is seen in the High Council along with the Ancient of Days. (psalm 82). In God's economy He has chosen physical reality and attaches it to spiritual entities. Sometimes they are seen and sometimes they are not. Why would the Lord disdain His own creation? He loves His world and died for it all. Before they fixed the Hubble, the array of splendor was still there in the heavens. It did not appear (like existentialists would say) just because we could see it suddenly. What is, just IS. We have to accept things we just cannot possibly understand. To over-simplify is as bad as total ignorance. Spiritual IS a part of our reality. Even if we cannot see it. Flesh may be a PART of a spiritual thing. One does not replace the other. They just ARE.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jul 9, 2018 7:40:29 GMT -5
I'm going to start a new post about Bible study so we don't derail Sister's thread. Sister, feel free to continue your thoughts on the Word of God.
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