PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jul 15, 2018 10:29:09 GMT -5
Since we're on the topic of spiritual gifts around here, I thought it might be helpful to discuss discernment. Pretenders are definitely a real problem. We have a duty to reject counterfeit miracles in order to defend and legitimize the real ones.
John tells us this: Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)
Paul tells us this: And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. (2 Corinthians 11:14)
Moses tells us this: Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts. (Exodus 7:11)
Let us note one important thing here. Counterfeit miracles are not just an end-times phenomenon. Moses did real miracles at the same time there were witches trying to deceive him. This is an age-old problem. The existence of a counterfeit doesn't mean there's no real one.
But now there's something else I'd like you to consider. Not every botched attempt is a sign of witchcraft. Yes there are wicked subverters out there, but not every undisciplined Christian is a subverter. 1 Corinthians 14 gives practical coaching on how to manage spiritual gifts. We must practice these gifts and develop them just like any other skill or ability.
So just because a Christian gets out of line, hears a wrong word, or tries too hard to make something happen, this doesn't mean he/she is a liar. Nowhere in the Bible do we see spiritual gifts portrayed as all-or-nothing. To slander someone as a false prophet just because they got one word wrong is unbiblical. Let us give each other respect, and not always look for excuses to attack.
Having said all of this, here are some guidelines on discernment...
1) Does the apparent prophesy/miracle glorify Jesus? Is it used to draw people closer to Jesus?
2) Does it match the personality, character, or nature of Jesus? Does it sound like something Jesus would do? Does it match the Bible?
3) Does it turn out to be true, not just for temporary instant gratification, but as a long-term reality?
4) Is it really something human effort could not do? Is it really hidden knowledge? "God told me the sky is blue" is not prophecy.
5) Does it stand on its own as a word or action from God... or does it rely on emotional/social pressure?
6) Does it give you a clear, convincing understanding of what you need to do... or does it seem to be little more than a scare tactic?
7) Does it bring you to repentance that makes you feel free... or does it make you feel like scum that won't really be forgiven?
8) Does it build you up to pursue greater holiness and maturity... or does it put you under the thumb of a babysitter?
9) Does it exhort you to follow Jesus anywhere... or does it solidify your loyalty to a person/group/institution?
10) Does it affirm sound biblical doctrine... or does it work to make you question what's real?
God does not give us spiritual gifts to bully, manipulate, control, or confuse each other. They are expressions of God's power and love in this human world. Any true miracle from God will make you feel convicted but not belittled, challenged but not set up, free but not unglued.
Other members are definitely welcome to add their thoughts!
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jul 15, 2018 10:48:28 GMT -5
Other members are definitely welcome to add their thoughts! If someone forces you to use a gift... Let us say tongues.
It is very common we see people that almost forces you to speak in tongues or manifest some gift.
Never proceed of doing things for show, or just to please others...
"Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." - 1 Corinthians 10:31
"So then each of us shall give account of himself to God." - Romans 14:12
Gifts are not please people, they are to glorify God and to be manifested when He wants, and where He wants, through sincere faith and prompting of the Holy Spirit.
If you are sincere about spiritual gifts then you will probably learn to recognize when it is genuine faith or pressure.
Because genuine faith cannot be faked, or you have it or you do not.
"But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin." - Romans 14:23
But all this should be present in you if you fear God and consequently keep His commandments... As it is written:
"Let all that you do be done with love." - 1 Corinthians 16:14
"Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts..." - 1 Corinthians 14:1
If you are still unsure, then pray about it and God will certainly give you more.
"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him." - James 1:5
"...No good thing will He withhold From those who walk uprightly." - Psalm 84:11
God bless you in Jesus' name!
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Post by frienduff on Jul 15, 2018 10:56:36 GMT -5
The thing is how to also discern THE ONE doing the miracles or gifts . As our dear sister said , even those magicians of darkness could do what MOSES did , UP TO A POINT it was allowed. Course the serpent of MOSES DID swallow up all them false lil serpents . We need to turn in our bibles to two cetain places . FIRST NOTE that n revelations , HOW does it say THEY WERE DECIEVED , BY the means of those mircales he had power to do . FLASH BACK to deut , chapter THIRTEEN . AND SEE what many either do not know or have forgotten. IF a dreamer of dreams has a dream or a vision and THAT DREAM or vision DOES COME TO PASS DOES COME TO PASS . as in IT DOES COME TO PASS, yet he is says let us go after other gods, DO NOT HEED HIM. I THE LORD have allowed it , TO TEST and SEE WHETHER YOU LOVE THE LORD THY GOD . I AM WARNING US with all urgency THAT the all inclusvive interfaith is about to KICK OFF WITH REAL MIRCACLES real dreams that do come to pass, AND saying GOD IS WITH US , we do these miracles , LET US BE ONE BIG HAPPY EARTH MANY WAYS OTHERS GODS FAMILY . its ABOUT TO KICK OFF AND FOLKS WILL BE DECIEVED BADLY . WE MUST KNOW BIBLICAL DOCTRINE , WE MUST FOLLOW ONLY THE LAMB AND NO MATTER IF THESE FALSE ONES CAN HEAL OR HAVE DREAMS OR DO MIRACLES , TEHY ARE not OF GOD AT ALL IT IS A DELUSOIN , IS ALL IT IS .
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Post by frienduff on Jul 15, 2018 11:04:16 GMT -5
Beware even now they have some miracles , I have seen them at work on the streets on vidoes . they preach NOTHING about repentance , nothing about the dire need for JESUS , and worse they support that seeker friendly all inclusive , YET they got miracles . small ones , but they already deceive people by it . YA FEEL THAT , one said , YA FEEL THAT , yet examine their background and watch . they are already going n league with ROME . TODD WHITE big example . HOW he dropped and said OH HOLY SPIRIT , its saying the catholic church and us are all going to come together , YET those men have some miracles . WATCH OUT , WATCH out the all inclusive delusion is spring forth and will come with even greater miracles than these . AND they will be saying , OH let us arise and al paths are valid , other gods . MAN its like how specific can DEUT BE . the BIBLE is pure truth and it does contain the WORDS and word of GOD himself. We about to see a massive explosion in this false mega interfaith all inclusive realm . AND it will take all captive who were not IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE leading them RIGHT TO the worship of the eighth king , THE BEAST who is to rise . THE MORAL of this , IS THIS , YOU test THE PERSON doing the miracles, YOU TEST THIER DOCTRINE and make sure ITS IDENTICAL to the bible , TO JESUS SAYINGS . SISTER candance is right . I just wanted to quoate deut to show us HOW CLEAR and WHY this is allowed to happen . TO SEE IF WE TRULY LOVE THE LORD WIHT ALL THE HEART . GOD allows it . HE EVEN SENDS a strong delusion right at the end so that all who rejected the Love of the truth will believe A LIE and Be damned . WELL we are very near to all that RIGHT NOW .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2018 15:38:32 GMT -5
I worry about those who record and videotape miracles and things of God...it doesn't feel right...is it just me or does that seem like treating the holy things of God as common....? Some may be well-meaning when they do it, and Lord can be merciful, but if it is for showmanship and self-glorification, then they are playing with fire, it could become a snare....like handling the ark with hands of flesh.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 7:24:33 GMT -5
Good thoughts from all on this. Amen! Miracles/gifts glorify the Lord, not the vessel who should just not let the right hand know what the left hand is doing. It's even more important to discern the person or group than the miracles per se....if they are humble or self-glorifying, and what their doctrine is. Trying to force God's hand, or pressuring someone, is inviting a counterfeit, unless the Lord decides to be merciful. To me the most important thing is to keep our eyes and hearts on the Lord......not on the things of God, His gifts/miracles, but on HIM...and then in Him we are kept safe from being deceived.
If we chase after miracles to be entertained by them or start to make idols of the things of God or the people doing them, that is when it can becomes a snare and He allows the enemy to come in and deceive. I have seen this happen, and thankfully the Lord taught me by seeing the mistakes....so for me that is at the top of my list. Treat His things as holy (not common)...and yet as normal for God, so don't sensationalize or become fascinated by them. And remember the holy things belong to GOD, not to us...they are not ours to handle them with our hands of flesh to serve our purposes or to be entertained or to advertise one's church or ministry etc....they are holy and we need to keep that in mind.
Three things come to mind regarding counterfeit miracles....one is that they often don't meet a genuine need or serve a purpose, like gold dust appearing or statues weeping. Second, they can be vague, like you are not sure if something happened or not. I've heard people say, well I think I'm healed, kinda sorta....and once was in a meeting and nearby someone who thought he received a gold tooth...it was gold, then it seemed to fade and then it seemed to come back again but only sort of, it was strange but I couldn't be quite sure when he asked me to check it again. And third, counterfeits often (if not always) do not remain...the problem returns or the miracle evaporates. Whereas when Jesus does a work, the bibles says WHO THE SON SETS FREE IS FREE INDEED...it is very certain, it doesn't leave you questioning, you KNOW by faith or the results are seen clearly...that is God's word on the matter.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jul 16, 2018 8:01:03 GMT -5
I've heard people say, well I think I'm healed, kinda sorta... ...it is very certain, it doesn't leave you questioning, you KNOW by faith or the results are seen clearly...that is God's word on the matter. Rewritten message as I edited the original by accident: --- I remember I received a message in a church a went, this was before getting saved.
The person told me that the Lord was healing me from a blood disease... Well, this came as a surprise to me, as I thought I was healthy... In a country with poor people, making check ups are not routine for many around here.
OK, I believed it... And I decided not to doubt and start doing exams to find out. If the Lord said He healed then He did it.
And I am still here alive and healthy... Thanks to God... See how merciful He is.
And in 2014, I received a prophecy from the same person in the church... He told me the Lord was going to bring me to Him.
And in 2015, I was invited to be water baptized, and this in another church... Then I accepted it, even without having full knowledge of it.
And in 2016, after being draw to the Lord by many ways... I decided that I had to know Him... Then it was when I come to the knowledge of the truth, and decided to repent.
Then in December 2017 I decided I had to be water baptized again... It is so simple and the Lord was so merciful to me, then I decided to do it again, this time with full knowledge.
And then I am talking about this to you today... Glory to God!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 9:56:54 GMT -5
Bless you 2fw, the Lord is so good, and He works in mysterious ways. If I understand what you are saying, yes, I agree the Lord also works in ways that are under the radar so to speak....though I was talking about cases where people are wanting a miracle and almost "trying" to have one...but that doesn't work, because either they received a healing or they did not. I don't know if I'm explaining it very well, but someone might have a fleeting sort of temporary relief of a problem which then returns or fades in and out...as though the miracle or healing evaporates...it is vague but they call it a miracle when it is only a counterfeit. In your case it sounds like the man knew you had been healed, he didn't wonder if you were healed, he knew you were, by faith. I just am sure that when the Lord heals or does something it is a done deal, it is real and it lasts.
I once was healed of something and it was like Dorcas....one minute I was curled up in a ball suffering, the next minute I just got up healed as though nothing had ever been wrong, and went about my business rejoicing and the problem has never returned. Who the Son sets free is free indeed, praise the Lord. I really believe that is a biblical principle we can stand on.
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Post by John on Jul 16, 2018 11:21:46 GMT -5
There is no question that magicians can work what appears to be miracles, so we shouldn't assume that miracles equate to prophet of God. The Bible does tell us that if a prophet is of God, what they say will happen must come to pass. Can a real Christian mess up? I suppose they can, but knowing how the church is under a microscope, we should do everything possible to make sure anything we say in the name of the Lord is really his words and not our imagination or something done to make us out as something more than we are.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jul 16, 2018 11:24:05 GMT -5
Rewritten message as I edited the original by accident: --- I remember I received a message in a church a went, this was before getting saved.
The person told me that the Lord was healing me from a blood disease... Well, this came as a surprise to me, as I thought I was healthy... In a country with poor people, making check ups are not routine for many around here.
OK, I believed it... And I decided not to doubt and start doing exams to find out. If the Lord said He healed then He did it.
And I am still here alive and healthy... Thanks to God... See how merciful He is.
And in 2014, I received a prophecy from the same person in the church... He told me the Lord was going to bring me to Him.
And in 2015, I was invited to be water baptized, and this in another church... Then I accepted it, even without having full knowledge of it.
And in 2016, after being draw to the Lord by many ways... I decided that I had to know Him... Then it was when I come to the knowledge of the truth, and decided to repent.
Then in December 2017 I decided I had to be water baptized again... It is so simple and the Lord was so merciful to me, then I decided to do it again, this time with full knowledge.
And then I am talking about this to you today... Glory to God! Just thought about this...
I just noticed something interesting now... New to me.
The first time I was water baptized was September 12 (month 9, day 12)...
The second time was December 9 (month 12, day 9)...
Glory to God! Amen. \o/
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jul 16, 2018 11:55:54 GMT -5
...so we shouldn't assume that miracles equate to prophet of God. The Bible does tell us that if a prophet is of God, what they say will happen must come to pass. Can a real Christian mess up?
Yes, when someone comes saying "Thus says the Lord...". Then there is no other choice whatever the prophet speak must be true, and consequently come to pass.
"when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him." - Deuteronomy 18:22
But there are times the person are just moved by faith, and trust in God that if the person believes He will do it.
"Have faith in God. For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says." - Mark 11:22-23
This also requires discernment or revelation, to determine if the person has the faith to receive it.
"...Paul, observing him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed, said with a loud voice, “Stand up straight on your feet!” And he leaped and walked." - Acts 14:9-10
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Post by justinadams on Jul 17, 2018 5:45:44 GMT -5
Paraclete. Translated and transliterated several ways depending on the translator and the era. KJV translated it The Com-FORTER. This is due to the scholar's Latin familiarity. FORTE means strong, unassailable, secure. Today, we do not see this word COMFORT as anything much, except perhaps a pillow.
Understand that when Yeshua said, I will ask the Father and He will send 'ANOTHER PARACLETE'... In other words, Yeshua(Jesus) is often referred to as PARACLETE. The translators took certain liberties and made things fit in the terms that were common to their day.
Thinking of THE PARACLETE (meaning The Holy Spirit this time) is quite different that the soppy way we are taught in Sunday School. Think of Ananias and Saphira. Think of the various amazing occurrences in the Tanach and the New Testament.
In Sydney in the late 70's I organized all transport for the International Charismatic Convention. Someone I knew well was in a car at an intersection that was about to be T-boned. They found themselves 100 yards further down the road unscathed. A famous speaker was preaching at the convention. A dog wandered down the rows towards him... he pointed at the dog. It lay down and went to sleep. The HQ typewriter broke (no word processors in those days). I stuck my fingers inside and closed it up. It then worked OK. (don't ask me what happened).
I held on to a person as many devils were cast out - bucking and crying out. Then amazing quiet. We prayed for a person with eye issues. The doctor asked them, when they had had the cataract surgery?They said, 'not yet'. The doctor was dumbfounded.
There was a small outpouring at Holly Bush in the UK. The guy jumped out of his truck and CRACK went his ankle. OH Lord, what shall I do now? He watched in amazement as his bone went CRACK and back into place. No aches or pains!! he was able to carry on.
If you recall Dennis Bennett in his book 'Nine o'clock in the morning', he recounts that in a small prayer meeting they prayed for a guy with major health issues. They looked up to see his chest MOVING and heard a crackling sound as his shirt filled out. WHAMMO-BAMMO. Instantly healed.
We read of Phillip being suddenly transported to and from different locales. I heard of people that this has also happened to in the US.
PARACLETE and His agents are all around us as His Work continues. We do well to consider this and be very respectful of His Power and absolute strength. He IS a fortress!!
In my limited experience, like Wigglesworth, I see PARACLETE as a moving, Dynamic Person. Think on this: He shows up someplace and great things happen. Then He moves on. The people at the 'happening' then try to mimic the circumstances and end up looking like fools and getting the Lord a bad rap.
Years ago a group from Smithton came to the women's prison here in Birmingham UK. During the meeting all the inmates suddenly fell flat on the floor. This pastor often said he'd rather minister to crooks and hookers than pastors at the many conventions he was invited to.
PARACLETE is no respecter of persons. He blows where He Wills. He is NOT to be trifled with!! We must not make claims in His Name frivolously.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 7:27:15 GMT -5
AMEN Justin! Praise the Lord, glory to Jesus!
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Post by frienduff on Jul 17, 2018 8:30:31 GMT -5
There is no question that magicians can work what appears to be miracles, so we shouldn't assume that miracles equate to prophet of God. The Bible does tell us that if a prophet is of God, what they say will happen must come to pass. Can a real Christian mess up? I suppose they can, but knowing how the church is under a microscope, we should do everything possible to make sure anything we say in the name of the Lord is really his words and not our imagination or something done to make us out as something more than we are.
Yes what a true prophet says Does come to pass. Their is also something else , and this is double guard duty we must also watch out for . Not only must the sign or wonder COME to pass, THEIR doctrine must be sound and nothing to do with other gods or having any unity with that . For in deuteronmy something else is also said . And it says if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams has a sign or wonder , AND IT DOES COME TO PASS. WATCH OUT , this can happen . And yet their heart is in league with other gods , IT SAYS the LORD allows this TO TEST to see whether we love the LORD our GOD . THIS IS WHY JESUS made mention about HOW deceiving those end time miracles would be , THAT they could deceive even the VERY elect IF it were possible . AND JESUS warnes extensively , TAKE HEED that no man deceive you . And the apostels warned . AND in revelations it says He deceived them by means of the miracles he had power to do . We in those days and it will get worse . This whole sensual all inclusive mindset , THEY GOING to have miracles , its all going to point and cause only more unity under a mindset of an all inclusive god who is in all religions and lead RIGHT to the worship of the beast . No matter who stands and does miracles , WE BETTER KNOW SOUND DOCTRINE WELL . we better LEARN JESUS WELL for I warn and remind us all, MANY are and WILL get badly deceived in ever so short a time . Thus let us feast ever more on the pages of the bible and keep exhorting one another , and use whatever gift we have FAITHFULLY as unto the LORD WHO gives each man according to HIS WILL the sufficient grace to do what is pleasing in HIS SIGHT and what will build up and edify the body . WE are running into a mass hysteria of a delusion of upmost confusion of the false sensual all inclusion . Butero , I aint ever seen anything like it , ITS sucking the life out of many now and its getting worse and will worsen with great speed more and more .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 12:57:10 GMT -5
Amen brothers...we need humility and fear of the Lord, sound doctrine and the nature of Christ Jesus, all these excellent things.
One thing about gifts of the Spirit if I may mention, is that the reason why we are to diligently guard our hearts...is for the very reason that out of our hearts flow the issues of life. Because even when we are led by the Spirit, our spiritual gifts can flow but can be mixed with whatever may be in our vessels, any wrong spirit, whether condemnation, self-righteousness, fears, pride, seeking to justify our flesh, or any such thing, it will taint what is flowing out of the vessel accordingly. We want to be vessels without mixture, so we continue endeavouring to seek the Lord for whatever we have need of, cleansing or healing, a right spirit, right understanding, dying to our flesh, etc, and hence increasing purity of those issues of life, our spiritual gifts.
And this is even why we do not look to miracles or gifts, or persons or groups, we are only to set our eyes and hearts on the Giver of them, and in Him we are kept.
Pro 4:23-27
Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee.
Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.
Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.
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