Post by watchful on Mar 18, 2022 9:59:52 GMT -5
Let’s maybe give this a try. What if we put Revelation aside for a minute and look at these scriptures. Just put Rev out of our minds, pretend it wasn’t even written yet, that we haven’t read it, and see what was being taught to the early church a number of years or decades before John had the vision and wrote it down. Let these words in the epistles alone just speak to us and say what they say:
1Co 15:20-30
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
Notice the whole context of what is being talked about here is the resurrection of the dead at Christ’s coming....and what takes place then. It says the end comes to this world at the coming of the Lord once the resurrection of the saints has taken place....and at this time also, at His coming, is when He puts down/subdues all rule, power and authority.
Right now Jesus Christ is as though ruling in the Father’s stead, as it were......ever since the Father gave Him that place. And He “must reign” since then, and is reigning now until all enemies are subdued and put down under His feet at the end:
Phl 2:8-10
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the HIGHEST PLACE and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth
But when Jesus comes again, He will deliver the kingdom back to the Father and become once again subject to the Father. At His coming, which is when He finishes putting down all rule, authority and power and subdues it all to Himself. Including the last enemy death...which gets thrown into the lake of fire....again, we see this is at His coming.
1Th 5:1-4
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
The day of the Lord is at His coming, like a thief in the night upon those who are not children of the light....sudden DESTRUCTION....wrath of God and judgment upon the world....at His coming. This is what we’re all waiting for and want to be ready for, is it not..?...being accounted worthy to escape the WRATH, being partakers of the first resurrection, by being found in Christ.
2Pe 3:3-14
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, BY THE SAME WORD (promise) are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; IN THE WHICH the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
The promise of His coming, amen. (And why the judgment of the world is also part of the promise, is because of how the world persecutes the church...why the martyred souls under the altar cry out for justice.) It's crystal clear here that the destruction/judgment of this world and new heavens/earth occurs at His coming, which comes as a thief in the night.... sudden destruction of the world and resurrection of the saints.
So now when we come to the book of Revelation, we have to know that whatever we understand about different parts of the book of Revelation HAS TO AGREE WITH WHAT WAS TAUGHT AND WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE EARLIER. Any understanding we have that contradicts and doesn’t agree with the earlier scrips HAS to be wrong understanding. And for me, I don't consider the book of Revelation is easy to understand...it is a stupendously dumbfounding vision written in highly allegorical, spiritual, prophetic language. No wonder much of it is still a mystery to a lot of people, as well as it doesn't seem surprising that we get it wrong.
As much as I still don’t understand, I can say this much with confidence....this passage quoted below, in light of the earlier scrips, HAS to be at the coming of Christ, not at the end of a further “thousand years” afterwards:
Rev 20:11-15
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Clearly this is speaking of the resurrection of the dead, which the epistles, written earlier, say happens at Christ's coming, not a thousand years later. And clearly the last enemy death is defeated at this time also - cast into the lake of fire. Clearly this is the end of this present world, heaven and earth, and clearly this is judgment day.
And the only way this all makes sense is to understand the "thousand years" as being this current age of Christ's rule....otherwise how do we have Christ ruling and reigning for a thousand years on an earth that was burned up, and who would He be ruling and reigning on earth if all the people have died, been judged, and Satan and his army of fallen angels too...are all in the lake of fire forever, kaput, finished. And why would Jesus be ruling and reigning for a further thousand years when He already delivered the kingdom back to the Father? We have really been trying to force it to make sense by imagining scenarios that are not found in the scriptures, and which contradict the epistles.
1Co 15:20-30
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
Notice the whole context of what is being talked about here is the resurrection of the dead at Christ’s coming....and what takes place then. It says the end comes to this world at the coming of the Lord once the resurrection of the saints has taken place....and at this time also, at His coming, is when He puts down/subdues all rule, power and authority.
Right now Jesus Christ is as though ruling in the Father’s stead, as it were......ever since the Father gave Him that place. And He “must reign” since then, and is reigning now until all enemies are subdued and put down under His feet at the end:
Phl 2:8-10
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the HIGHEST PLACE and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth
But when Jesus comes again, He will deliver the kingdom back to the Father and become once again subject to the Father. At His coming, which is when He finishes putting down all rule, authority and power and subdues it all to Himself. Including the last enemy death...which gets thrown into the lake of fire....again, we see this is at His coming.
1Th 5:1-4
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
The day of the Lord is at His coming, like a thief in the night upon those who are not children of the light....sudden DESTRUCTION....wrath of God and judgment upon the world....at His coming. This is what we’re all waiting for and want to be ready for, is it not..?...being accounted worthy to escape the WRATH, being partakers of the first resurrection, by being found in Christ.
2Pe 3:3-14
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, BY THE SAME WORD (promise) are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; IN THE WHICH the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
The promise of His coming, amen. (And why the judgment of the world is also part of the promise, is because of how the world persecutes the church...why the martyred souls under the altar cry out for justice.) It's crystal clear here that the destruction/judgment of this world and new heavens/earth occurs at His coming, which comes as a thief in the night.... sudden destruction of the world and resurrection of the saints.
So now when we come to the book of Revelation, we have to know that whatever we understand about different parts of the book of Revelation HAS TO AGREE WITH WHAT WAS TAUGHT AND WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE EARLIER. Any understanding we have that contradicts and doesn’t agree with the earlier scrips HAS to be wrong understanding. And for me, I don't consider the book of Revelation is easy to understand...it is a stupendously dumbfounding vision written in highly allegorical, spiritual, prophetic language. No wonder much of it is still a mystery to a lot of people, as well as it doesn't seem surprising that we get it wrong.
As much as I still don’t understand, I can say this much with confidence....this passage quoted below, in light of the earlier scrips, HAS to be at the coming of Christ, not at the end of a further “thousand years” afterwards:
Rev 20:11-15
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Clearly this is speaking of the resurrection of the dead, which the epistles, written earlier, say happens at Christ's coming, not a thousand years later. And clearly the last enemy death is defeated at this time also - cast into the lake of fire. Clearly this is the end of this present world, heaven and earth, and clearly this is judgment day.
And the only way this all makes sense is to understand the "thousand years" as being this current age of Christ's rule....otherwise how do we have Christ ruling and reigning for a thousand years on an earth that was burned up, and who would He be ruling and reigning on earth if all the people have died, been judged, and Satan and his army of fallen angels too...are all in the lake of fire forever, kaput, finished. And why would Jesus be ruling and reigning for a further thousand years when He already delivered the kingdom back to the Father? We have really been trying to force it to make sense by imagining scenarios that are not found in the scriptures, and which contradict the epistles.