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Post by tlsitd on Jul 22, 2018 15:33:38 GMT -5
"Touch not My anointed ones, do My prophets no harm!"
You've probably heard this Scripture before. It's one of those misinterpreted and abused Scriptures, unfortunately---like Malachi 3:8,10 (robbing God).
This Scripture comes from Psalm 105.
Here is the verse in context (quoting the English Standard Version translation of the Bible):
When they were few in number, of little account, and sojourners in it (that is, the land of Canaan), wandering from nation to nation, from one kingdom to another people, He allowed no one to oppress them; He rebuked kings on their account, saying, "Touch not My anointed ones, do My prophets no harm!" (Psalm 105:12-15)
Psalm 105 is a recounting of God's dealings with the people of Israel, from the time of Abraham to the time of Moses, and it is chronological: It starts out in the time of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, continues on through the time of Joseph, and finishes with the time of Moses, and Israel's deliverance from the land of Egypt.
So who is that verse specifically referring to, within the context of the Psalm? Abraham, primarily---and also Isaac and Jacob, who were the "sojourners" wandering from nation to nation and kingdom to kingdom. (See also Hebrews 11:9). Verses 14 & 15 are specifically referring to the incident involving Abraham and Abimelech, king of Gerar, who was the king of the Philistines, described in Genesis chapter 20:
From there Abraham journeyed toward the territory of the Negeb and lived between Kadesh and Shur; and he sojourned in Gerar. And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah.
But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man's wife."
..."Now then, return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." (Genesis 20:1-3,7)
So there's the prophet that Psalm 105:15 is specifically referring to, within the context of the Psalm, which is a chronological recounting of God's dealing with His people Israel, from the time of the patriarchs to the time of Moses. It's not about David (whose time this Psalm does not even begin to approach), and it's certainly not about pastors in general.
Do I believe that God punishes those who harm His prophets, or men whom He has truly anointed? Yes. I do not believe that this Scripture is limited to what God did with Abraham in that particular incident. We have more than one example in the Scriptures of God dealing severely with men, women, and even children who even grumbled against His prophets, or tried to do them harm.
Moses (Numbers 12)
The man of God who prophesied against King Jeroboam (1 Kings 13:1-4)
Elijah (2 Kings 1:9-15)
Elisha (2 Kings 2:23, 24)
The two anointed prophets who will be prophesying during the tribulation (Revelation 11:5)
I don't know how a pastor, or a man who claims to be a prophet, can use that verse to suggest that he is above correction or rebuke. It doesn't apply to anyone who is not truly anointed by God (not merely ordained by man, or to a man who claims to be anointed by God but isn't), or who isn't a genuine prophet. And even if the person is truly anointed by God or a genuine prophet, that doesn't mean that he is above legitimate, non-malicious criticism or rebuke. That's not "harm". That is an inappropriate use of that verse.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 15:51:30 GMT -5
"Who touches you touches the apple of my eye".....I believe it is in reference to ALL His people....and is the reason we need to pray and intercede for our enemies so that they do not reap what they sow.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Jul 22, 2018 16:10:28 GMT -5
I loled at the Malachi ref. I was not aware people did misuse that scripture like that. I never have heard it. I will count that as a blessing. I have seen how when someone wronged me How things went for them. its way worse than anything i could ever do to them.
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Post by tlsitd on Jul 22, 2018 16:14:18 GMT -5
"Who touches you touches the apple of my eye".....I believe it is in reference to ALL His people....and is the reason we need to pray and intercede for our enemies so that they do not reap what they sow. That Scripture does refer to all of God's people, but that is not related to Psalm 105:15, which specifically pertains to God's prophets and people whom He has specially anointed for some purpose. Which is not to say that He doesn't avenge the blood of His saints, or punish those who do His people harm in some cases, which He does. But I think the reason for God specially dealing with people who harm His prophets and anointed ones is that harming them shows contempt for God's authority---the same reason He deals more harshly with those to whom He has entrusted special grace or authority when they sin, and holds them to a higher standard of conduct and attitude than others.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jul 22, 2018 16:14:32 GMT -5
I don't know how a pastor, or a man who claims to be a prophet, can use that verse to suggest that he is above correction or rebuke. We are to test all things by the Word of God... And a true prophet will not come preaching against it.
But if you do evil to a prophet or an anointed one, you will be guilty of innocent blood and God will repay you accordingly.
"Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord." - Romans 12:19
"But know for certain that if you put me to death, you will surely bring innocent blood on yourselves, on this city, and on its inhabitants; for truly the Lord has sent me to you to speak all these words in your hearing." - Jeremiah 26:15
"If you afflict them in any way, and they cry at all to Me, I will surely hear their cry; and My wrath will become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless." - Exodus 22:23-24
"And he said to his men, “The Lord forbid that I should do this thing to my master, the Lord's anointed, to stretch out my hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the Lord.”" - 1 Samuel 24:6
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Post by tlsitd on Jul 22, 2018 17:11:10 GMT -5
I loled at the Malachi ref. I was not aware people did misuse that scripture like that. I never have heard it. I will count that as a blessing. I have seen how when someone wronged me How things went for them. its way worse than anything i could ever do to them. (The irony is that it is the ones who knowingly misuse that Scripture from Malachi who are actually robbing God---taking God's money from His people according to their own will, rather than His---and using His word to do it. That's a very serious offense. It's bad enough to steal and to practice deceit; it's even worse to use the Bible deceitfully in order to steal. The Lord will repay such swindlers according to their deeds on judgment day.)
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jul 22, 2018 17:28:08 GMT -5
I loled at the Malachi ref. I was not aware people did misuse that scripture like that. I never have heard it. I will count that as a blessing. I have seen how when someone wronged me How things went for them. its way worse than anything i could ever do to them. (The irony is that it is the ones who knowingly misuse that Scripture from Malachi who are actually robbing God---taking God's money from His people according to their own will, rather than His---and using His word to do it. That's a very serious offense. It's bad enough to steal and to practice deceit; it's even worse to use the Bible deceitfully in order to steal. The Lord will repay such swindlers according to their deeds on judgment day.) "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God." - 1 Corinthians 4:5
"I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings." - Jeremiah 17:10
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 19:31:44 GMT -5
"Who touches you touches the apple of my eye".....I believe it is in reference to ALL His people....and is the reason we need to pray and intercede for our enemies so that they do not reap what they sow. That Scripture does refer to all of God's people, but that is not related to Psalm 105:15, which specifically pertains to God's prophets and people whom He has specially anointed for some purpose. Which is not to say that He doesn't avenge the blood of His saints, or punish those who do His people harm in some cases, which He does. But I think the reason for God specially dealing with people who harm His prophets and anointed ones is that harming them shows contempt for God's authority---the same reason He deals more harshly with those to whom He has entrusted special grace or authority when they sin, and holds them to a higher standard of conduct and attitude than others. Bless you sister.....under the new covenant, all who are born of the Spirit have the Holy Spirit, and so they are are anointed.....and remember that the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than the greatest old covenant prophet. And also now there are many spiritual gifts besides prophets. To my understanding those who have leadership gifts and teach/preach doctrine are judged more strictly because they are leading flocks and influencing many souls besides themselves, so that is why the Lord holds them to a higher standard.
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Post by tlsitd on Jul 22, 2018 20:00:09 GMT -5
That Scripture does refer to all of God's people, but that is not related to Psalm 105:15, which specifically pertains to God's prophets and people whom He has specially anointed for some purpose. Which is not to say that He doesn't avenge the blood of His saints, or punish those who do His people harm in some cases, which He does. But I think the reason for God specially dealing with people who harm His prophets and anointed ones is that harming them shows contempt for God's authority---the same reason He deals more harshly with those to whom He has entrusted special grace or authority when they sin, and holds them to a higher standard of conduct and attitude than others. Bless you sister.....under the new covenant, all who are born of the Spirit have the Holy Spirit, and so they are are anointed.....and remember that the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than the greatest old covenant prophet. And also now there are many spiritual gifts besides prophets. To my understanding those who have leadership gifts and teach/preach doctrine are judged more strictly because they are leading flocks and influencing many souls besides themselves, so that is why the Lord holds them to a higher standard. Yes, it is true that all who are in Christ are anointed in that sense (that we have the Holy Spirit in us), but God also anoints men to do specific things by calling, and that is a different anointing than the spiritually regenerating anointing of the Holy Spirit that all believers have. That kind of anointing comes with additional spiritual power to do whatever God has called the man to do. The two prophets who will be prophesying during the tribulation, for example, will be anointed with special power for their ministry (Revelation 11:3). Jesus was anointed for His ministry as well (Luke 3:21,22; 4:1, 16-19). And you are also correct about God holding teachers and preachers to a higher standard because of their influence, but God also holds anyone to whom He has given much to do His will with (understanding, authority, etc) to a higher standard than those to whom He has given less; and all the more so if what He has given them to do influences other believers or is public---before the eyes of the world, because of the fact that they represent Him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2018 8:23:13 GMT -5
LightShines.....EVERYONE is anointed for their ministry and calling, whether it be greater or lesser. There are no special ministers or special anointings....there is to be no schism in the Body of Christ. Everyone just humbly and faithfully does their part without any need to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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Post by frienduff on Jul 23, 2018 8:42:40 GMT -5
LightShines.....EVERYONE is anointed for their ministry and calling, whether it be greater or lesser. There are no special ministers or special anointings....there is to be no schism in the Body of Christ. Everyone just humbly and faithfully does their part without any need to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Thanks for this reminder as well sister . Its good to point that out , so no matter what one has been given by GOD , they remember this and not get exalted out of measure and fall into pride . I don't say that against ANYONE HERE , but I do remind us all for the sake of edification . Yes those who may APPEAR greater , really are just the same as those who may APPEAR lesser concerning gifts . EVERY single member is needed to edify the body . Even on those who may seem less, we count them as every bit as needful . For truly , WHO GIVES anyone any gift . GOD DOES . And HE Alone sets the gifts among the memembers as HE alone pleases . So let us always remember , anything we have received from the LORD , WELL we RECIEVED IT so not to boast in us at all, BUT TO BOAST ONLY IN THE LORD .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 10:53:07 GMT -5
I think the fruit would not be very good, of anyone believing they have something more special than others in the Body of Christ, it could lead to having disdain for other members and a condescending superior way of thinking. It's not just about gifts and callings.....the erring church is full of those with gifts and callings, prophets and preachers and healers and so on, but who didn't wait upon the Lord to prepare them for their callings and to grow into the image of Christ, and we can see how the outcome is not good for them or the followers they gain. I once had occasion to visit a church, on a Saturday, and the janitor who opened the door was so Christlike, it is hard to describe how it was a blessing just to walk by the man and exchange a few polite words. I did not get anywhere near the same impression from talking with others at that church who had higher positions, and if I could have had my way, I would rather have been talking with that janitor, hands-down. I wonder who was more pleasing to God and will receive the greater reward in that situation...those with the greater or the lesser gift & calling? It reminds me of the passage of scripture that says I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than to dwell in the tents of the wicked....that is an understatement, and what a high position and wonder it is, to get to be a doorkeeper in HIS house. If the least in the kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist was....wow, just think about that a minute, and tell me who is NOT special in the Body of Christ.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jul 24, 2018 11:50:48 GMT -5
I think the fruit would not be very good, of anyone believing they have something more special than others in the Body of Christ, it could lead to having disdain for other members and a condescending superior way of thinking. It's not just about gifts and callings.....the erring church is full of those with gifts and callings, prophets and preachers and healers and so on, but who didn't wait upon the Lord to prepare them for their callings and to grow into the image of Christ, and we can see how the outcome is not good for them or the followers they gain. I once had occasion to visit a church, on a Saturday, and the janitor who opened the door was so Christlike, it is hard to describe how it was a blessing just to walk by the man and exchange a few polite words. I did not get anywhere near the same impression from talking with others at that church who had higher positions, and if I could have had my way, I would rather have been talking with that janitor, hands-down. I wonder who was more pleasing to God and will receive the greater reward in that situation...those with the greater or the lesser gift & calling? It reminds me of the passage of scripture that says I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than to dwell in the tents of the wicked....that is an understatement, and what a high position and wonder it is, to get to be a doorkeeper in HIS house. If the least in the kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist was....wow, just think about that a minute, and tell me who is NOT special in the Body of Christ. I believe the greatest gift of all is love, which means the dwelling Holy Spirit; and consequently the fruits that follow it by faith.
"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you..." - Ezekiel 36:26
"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." - Ezekiel 36:27
"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." - 1 John 2:6I think the fruit would not be very good, of anyone believing they have something more special than others in the Body of Christ, it could lead to having disdain for other members and a condescending superior way of thinking. It's not just about gifts and callings.....the erring church is full of those with gifts and callings, prophets and preachers and healers and so on, but who didn't wait upon the Lord to prepare them for their callings and to grow into the image of Christ, and we can see how the outcome is not good for them or the followers they gain. I once had occasion to visit a church, on a Saturday, and the janitor who opened the door was so Christlike, it is hard to describe how it was a blessing just to walk by the man and exchange a few polite words. I did not get anywhere near the same impression from talking with others at that church who had higher positions, and if I could have had my way, I would rather have been talking with that janitor, hands-down. I wonder who was more pleasing to God and will receive the greater reward in that situation...those with the greater or the lesser gift & calling? It reminds me of the passage of scripture that says I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than to dwell in the tents of the wicked....that is an understatement, and what a high position and wonder it is, to get to be a doorkeeper in HIS house. If the least in the kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist was....wow, just think about that a minute, and tell me who is NOT special in the Body of Christ. If anyone has the gift described above, then that would not happen... And if happens the correction will be applied and received.
"If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?" - Hebrews 12:7
"Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith..." - 1 Timothy 1:5
People have to make sure if what they are abiding on is love indeed.
"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-8
"As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love." - John 15:9
"that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height — to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." - Ephesians 3:17-19
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." - John 15:6
God bless you all in Jesus' name!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 12:26:56 GMT -5
Love is a fruit of the Spirit, rather than a gift. People receive gifts & callings, independently of their maturity and fruits of the Spirit. Fruits take time to grow and develop in the life and heart of the believer, regardless of our gifts and callings. That is why the Lord prepares each one for their calling, before He sends them. (As the bible says, "and how can they preach, except they be sent?") The stories of both Moses and Joseph are excellent to glean insights on these things as well.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jul 24, 2018 13:23:04 GMT -5
Love is a fruit of the Spirit, rather than a gift. People receive gifts & callings, independently of their maturity and fruits of the Spirit. Fruits take time to grow and develop in the life and heart of the believer, regardless of our gifts and callings. That is why the Lord prepares each one for their calling, before He sends them. (As the bible says, "and how can they preach, except they be sent?") The stories of both Moses and Joseph are excellent to glean insights on these things as well. Sorry! I still believe the Holy Spirit is a spiritual gift. It is true that people reflects the fruits of that gift in varying levels, according to their faith.
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." - Romans 8:9
"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38
"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." - John 14:23
"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world..." - Ephesians 2:1-2
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God..." - Ephesians 2:8
"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" - Galatians 3:2
"that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith..." - Ephesians 3:17
"But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." - John 7:39
"We love Him because He first loved us." - 1 John 4:19
"And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive." - Acts 20:35
God bless you all in Jesus' name!
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