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Post by tlsitd on Aug 15, 2018 11:58:00 GMT -5
I don't believe in a seven-year tribulation (it will be approximately three and a half years, not seven), but apart from that, this is a good message, with a good warning.
(Have you been deceived?)
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Post by John on Aug 15, 2018 15:20:00 GMT -5
I disagree with most everything this man teaches. Jesus himself told us to watch how we live because we don't know when he will return, and this man says that shouldn't be our motivation. I believe Jesus. He said the rapture teaching began 150 years ago which is not true. There are writings dating back to the late second century of the rapture being taught. I reject the claim the rapture doctrine caused people to fall away due to persecutions. We are not in the great tribulation period, so this is a manufactured scare tactic. He has no verses to support a secret rapture. I do. Luke 21:36. He wasn't the least bit persuasive to me.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Aug 15, 2018 16:22:28 GMT -5
Let's establish what Poonen said, precisely. He described a convoluted sequence taught by the mainstream church -- a clandestine evacuation of the saints, then the tribulation, then Jesus appearing in the sky. This sequence conveniently works out to suggest that few if any real Christians will suffer drastic persecution. Poonen said this convenient development became mainstream church teaching about 150 years ago.
Persecuted Christians in the 20th century did not fall away because they had to suffer, per se. They'd been taught from a theological perspective that certain things wouldn't happen. If all the eschatology experts guarantee a particular scenario cannot happen, and then it happens, what are you left to believe? This brings a reproach on the church. Sure we can say those people should have done their own homework, but Jesus gave us pastors and teachers to keep the church from making these huge mistakes.
I've long suspected that pre-trib teaching might cause this again. Several parables from Jesus describe a delay in His coming which will frustrate part of the church. If a global tribulation akin to the Holocaust starts wiping out Christianity, and there's no secret evacuation to save us from it, most of the church will be caught with its pants down. And if our shepherds were wrong about that, what else were they wrong about? Maybe there won't be a rapture at all. This logic will sweep through the church like wildfire.
Jesus told us to stay on watch and never lose hope. He told us to keep working until the last second, no matter what happens around us. I think it's fair to offer the possibility that He was warning us to stay on point when everyone around us says it's too late. If we're counting on holiness to bring us a pre-trib miracle so we don't have to suffer, it might not work out that way. It sounded to me like that's what Poonen meant about holiness. Will holiness inspire us to keep watching when all hope is lost, or are we counting on holiness to not let it get that far?
I don't personally have strong opinions about pre or post trib events. But I agree with Poonen that we shouldn't guarantee certain things cannot happen. We need to stay open to the possibility that a tribulation is coming for us.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Aug 15, 2018 17:06:54 GMT -5
...or are we counting on holiness to not let it get that far? "He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much." - Luke 16:10
Those who are faithful to Him under normal conditions, a tribulation will just strengthen their faith and confidence.
Now, tribulation is a problem to those who are not faithful...
then they will have to make the decision: Live or Die, Christ or World, Light or Darkness.
"Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision." - Joel 3:14
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." - Matthew 6:24
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Post by John on Aug 15, 2018 17:25:53 GMT -5
If you are not prepared for the tribulation because you are convinced of the rapture and there is no pre-trib rapture, that would present a problem, but what does the rapture have to do with tribulation and suffering in the general sense? People have always dealt with that. Nobody is promising escape from all persecutions. He was blaming people falling away today on pre-trib doctrine.
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Post by tlsitd on Aug 15, 2018 17:48:31 GMT -5
I disagree with most everything this man teaches. Jesus himself told us to watch how we live because we don't know when he will return, and this man says that shouldn't be our motivation. I believe Jesus. He said the rapture teaching began 150 years ago which is not true. There are writings dating back to the late second century of the rapture being taught. I reject the claim the rapture doctrine caused people to fall away due to persecutions. We are not in the great tribulation period, so this is a manufactured scare tactic. He has no verses to support a secret rapture. I do. Luke 21:36. He wasn't the least bit persuasive to me.
It is true that we are not in the tribulation period yet. That time of testing and persecution won't begin until the revealing of the antichrist, when his mark and worship are implemented and instituted. We are currently in the midst of the falling away of the saints from the faith---the apostasy/rebellion that precedes the antichrist's revealing and the start of the tribulation. The Scriptures are very clear about when Jesus Christ is coming back, and He is only returning once.
This man did not say that there wasn't going to be a rapture. He said there is no pre-tribulation rapture, which is correct. The "rapture" (so called), or catching away of the saints, will occur on the same day as Christ's (ONE) return, at the same time as the (ONE) resurrection of the dead, both the righteous and unrighteous. (The "first resurrection" which saves from the second death is not the physical resurrection of the dead on the day of the Lord's return, or any secret rapture, by the way. That Scripture refers to the spiritually dead (unregenerate) being raised to life in Christ by being born again. See John 5:25-29, which explains both the spiritual and physical resurrections.)
The Lord is not going to return until the last day of the approximately 3 1/2 years of tribulation initiated by the antichrist's revealing. Jesus is coming back after the tribulation, just as the preacher said in this video, as the Lord explained in Matthew 24:29-31. The preacher is correct about this.
You can look up Jonathan Nelson Darby with regard to the origins of the secret pre-trib rapture teaching that began to be accepted in the 19th century, which is what the preacher alluded to. Whether anyone ever proposed or taught this before Darby or not makes no difference as far as the incorrectness of it is concerned. If anyone taught or believed in a pre-tribulation rapture before Darby presented his version of this false teaching in the 1800s, they did so based on a misunderstanding of the Scriptures' teaching about this subject, and were also incorrect.
Many Christians and churches throughout the world hold to the correct belief in the Lord's return after the tribulation, as plainly taught in Scripture. I think the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is particularly popular in America (which puts American Christians at a disadvantage entering the tribulation), and American Christians may have influenced Christians in other parts of the world with this teaching, unfortunately.
However many Christians do or don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture doesn't make any difference to how the events are going to unfold: A lie is a lie regardless of how many people believe it or teach it, and the truth is still the truth even if nobody believes it; so it benefits each one of us to know the truth about this for ourselves.
Make no mistake about it, the secret pre-trib rapture teaching is completely false, and Christians who are hoping in it are not prepared for the tribulation, which we are all getting ready to enter and will have to endure for the testing of our faith according to God's will and eternal plan for the end of all things. Nobody is going to be "disappeared" away from it.
Obviously, those who are deceived about this will find out that they were deceived when it doesn't happen. But at least, if they reject the truth now, they won't be utterly devastated when they find themselves in the tribulation, having heard other Christians telling them the truth about this beforehand. That's why it doesn't bother me if people reject this truth. They're going to find out the truth about it eventually, and when they do, they'll remember what they were warned about and will know what is really going on and why. They'll probably still be devastated, but hopefully not to the point of falling away from the Lord and taking the mark of the beast because they don't know what to believe anymore, having believed that the Bible taught something that it doesn't teach, and therefore questioning whether they can believe anything that they have been taught or have believed from the Bible.
The pre-trib rapture false teaching is a very serious error that is going to hurt a lot of believers. Reject this truth now if you're not convinced, but remember it for the future.
Luke 21:36 is referring to the saints escaping the destruction of the world, which those of us who remain in Christ at the end of the tribulation will. If you refer back to Luke 21:25-28 you can see that Luke 21:36 is speaking about the last day of the tribulation (which is also the day that the world will be destroyed), when Christ returns. Every eye will see Him when He comes. And, of course, you can get the accurate timing of the Lord's (ONE) return by comparing the Scriptures that speak about this event, in the gospels and the epistles---rather than putting your trust in one verse that doesn't mean what you think it does. Your interpretation of that verse is refuted by the other Scriptures that speak about the return of the Lord.
There is no secret pre-trib rapture. It is a false teaching that has deceived many. Don't put your hopes on it, brother. Prepare your mind to suffer for Jesus' sake, not to be whisked away from the trial.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Aug 15, 2018 17:49:14 GMT -5
Nobody is promising escape from all persecutions.
Poonen seems to feel like this is being promised. That was his complaint.
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Post by tlsitd on Aug 15, 2018 18:14:37 GMT -5
If you are not prepared for the tribulation because you are convinced of the rapture and there is no pre-trib rapture, that would present a problem, but what does the rapture have to do with tribulation and suffering in the general sense? People have always dealt with that. Nobody is promising escape from all persecutions. He was blaming people falling away today on pre-trib doctrine.
As I recall, Mr. Poonen mentioned a real-life example of some Christians who had been (wrongly) taught that Jesus was coming back to save them from some persecution or hardship they were going through, and it didn't happen, so they fell away from their faith. Of course, no one should have been telling them that the Lord was coming back, because those Christians were not in the great tribulation, even though they were going through tribulation. Ordinary tribulation is not the great tribulation. So whoever told them this didn't know what he was talking about, apparently. However, the point Poonen was making was that believing that Jesus is coming back to save you from a trial doesn't set you up to endure it. It sets you up to fall away from Him when He doesn't do it, and to turn against God in anger, having your faith crushed by believing a lie and not knowing what to believe, and feeling like God lied to you.
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Post by John on Aug 15, 2018 19:37:37 GMT -5
I know about Darby, and how he is credited with the rapture teaching, but after reading about him, and doing further investigation into the subject, I found out that there were very early Christian writings in support of the pre-tribulation rapture, going back well before Darby. None of that proves anything one way or the other, except that the argument this is something relatively new is incorrect.
Bible prophecy is not the easiest thing to understand, and we can easily be wrong in what we believe. I tend to agree with much of what you said Lights about what will happen if there is no pre-tribulation rapture. This is how I would react. I know all about the great tribulation period, the anti-Christ, and the mark of the beast. As such, if I started seeing those events unfolding and no catching away occurred, I would know what to expect, as would anyone with a basic knowledge of Revelation. I believe in a rapture for a select few, not a rapture for every professing Christian, that will take place before the great tribulation period begins, so even if I am right, most will simply write off the disappearances in some crazy way and be given over to a strong delusion, like the people in the video Sister posted. Nobody should lose faith in the return of the Lord regardless. If I saw tribulation events taking place, how could I help but know the Bible was real and the Lord was coming soon? The only thing I believe may happen in such a case is people like those in that video will claim it is just a coincidence, and not the beast system. They will take the mark and it will be too late for them.
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Post by tlsitd on Aug 16, 2018 6:21:23 GMT -5
I know about Darby, and how he is credited with the rapture teaching, but after reading about him, and doing further investigation into the subject, I found out that there were very early Christian writings in support of the pre-tribulation rapture, going back well before Darby. None of that proves anything one way or the other, except that the argument this is something relatively new is incorrect.
Bible prophecy is not the easiest thing to understand, and we can easily be wrong in what we believe. I tend to agree with much of what you said Lights about what will happen if there is no pre-tribulation rapture. This is how I would react. I know all about the great tribulation period, the anti-Christ, and the mark of the beast. As such, if I started seeing those events unfolding and no catching away occurred, I would know what to expect, as would anyone with a basic knowledge of Revelation. I believe in a rapture for a select few, not a rapture for every professing Christian, that will take place before the great tribulation period begins, so even if I am right, most will simply write off the disappearances in some crazy way and be given over to a strong delusion, like the people in the video Sister posted. Nobody should lose faith in the return of the Lord regardless. If I saw tribulation events taking place, how could I help but know the Bible was real and the Lord was coming soon? The only thing I believe may happen in such a case is people like those in that video will claim it is just a coincidence, and not the beast system. They will take the mark and it will be too late for them.
Well it's as I said, whether anyone taught or believed in a pre-tribulation rapture before Darby proposed a similar idea in the 19th century makes no difference as to whether it is correct or not according to Scripture; and it isn't, even though many believe it is. Any eschatological interpretation that requires Jesus Christ to return twice is an incorrect interpretation. The Lord is only coming back once, and the collective Scriptures are clear about the events that will occur on that day. In any case, God will, in due time, give those who love Him the necessary understanding of this if they are deceived or confused about it now, so that they will be able to stand in the time of testing. And He is currently using those of us who correctly understand this subject to warn others who do not. When the events begin to unfold as they are actually going to according to Scripture, and not as people who have misunderstood the Scriptures believe that they will, and no one is secretly "raptured" away from the tribulation, it will not be because God has lied to you or because the Bible isn't reliable, but simply because you believed it taught something that it doesn't teach. Thankfully, there are Christians who understand the Scriptures' teachings about this subject correctly, who will be able to reassure those who don't when their belief proves to be an erroneous one.
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Post by tlsitd on Aug 16, 2018 8:01:02 GMT -5
The purpose of posting this video was not to make anyone afraid of the tribulation, but to warn them that they are going to have to go through it so that they may prepare their minds and hearts appropriately, and not be deceived by teachings or teachers that affirm otherwise.
There is absolutely no reason for any Christian who loves Jesus Christ to be afraid of the great tribulation. Yes, it will be a terrible time, and yes, we will suffer during it, but God's grace is always greater than any trial of faith that He ordains, and His purpose in those trials He ordains for us is always our good. The great tribulation is no exception. During the greatest tribulation there will be even greater grace to endure it. And we have the guarantee of going home to be with Jesus if our earthly tent is destroyed---which is far better than staying here.
So I'm not understanding the fear. Everything that the Scriptures say that God does for those who love and trust in Him will be true during the tribulation just as it is now.
When I think of the tribulation, I see Jesus. Knowing that He is with me to support me in every way necessary during that time is the only comfort and confidence I need. God is with us. What's to fear? Torture? Death? Didn't He supply the saints in ages before us with the grace to sing praises and rejoice as they were being killed and to not fall away from Him? Isn't He still supplying grace to be faithful to Him until death to Christians in countries where they are being persecuted and killed today?
So what is the fear coming from? Lack of confidence in God, or unwillingness to suffer for Jesus' sake? Love of your life down here?
Does the Bible teach us to be afraid of the tribulation, anywhere? Does it teach us to be afraid of what men can do to us? Does it teach us to grumble or to be afraid when we face trials? (Better revisit the Scriptures about this.)
It's an honor to suffer for Jesus' sake, not a curse, and those who do will be blessed.
Examine your hearts to find out why you are afraid of the great tribulation (if you are), or of death, and ask God to help you to make whatever adjustments to your attitude and thinking you may need to in order to have the attitude and perspective that you should have about these things according to the Scriptures. (And also remember that it is demons who want Christians to be afraid of the tribulation, not God.)
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Post by tlsitd on Aug 16, 2018 11:18:33 GMT -5
Daniel 12:1 says,
"...And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book."
God has promised deliverance to His people from the great tribulation. But He has not promised them deliverance by sparing them from it or by preserving their earthly lives to the end of it. (What Jesus promised the church in Philadelphia applied only to the church in Philadelphia, not to any other group of Christians at any other time, as some mistakenly believe and teach.)
God will preserve the physical life of some of His saints until the day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:15). But most of us will be delivered from the tribulation by martyrdom, not by rapture, and our expectation and concern going into that time should not be to survive physically but to be killed during that time and to preserve our lives in Christ by not falling away from Him in order to preserve our earthly lives and avoid persecution.
That great host of saints praising God before His throne described in Revelation chapter 7:9-17, are not saints who have been raptured; they are saints who have been martyred. (This is very important to realize.) These will be among the saints who return with Jesus Christ from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:14) on the last day. At this point in the tribulation (Revelation chapter 7) Jesus Christ has not yet returned to destroy the earth and to save the saints who remain alive there (which will be after the tribulation). This multitude is in heaven because they have died during the tribulation.
God's deliverance is not always by sparing someone's life. But those who remain faithful to Jesus Christ will indeed be delivered from the tribulation, whether by God taking them home by death, or whether by His preserving their earthly lives until the last day to be raptured when Jesus returns, if that should be God's will.
(I personally have no desire to stay on the earth any longer than I have to according to the Lord's will for me during that terrible time. Why would any Christian want to?)
As Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:18:
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom.
And Jesus surely did this for Paul. But Paul was martyred. He wasn't delivered from death, he was delivered by death.
For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. (2 Timothy 4:6,7)
(May the Lord do the same for us.)
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Post by frienduff on Aug 16, 2018 12:23:21 GMT -5
Sister lights we must continue more than ever to exhort all to be prepared to lose all for JESUS and even die . Everything paul told them in second thess was concering what had to occur BEFORE JESUS RETURNS .
I mean look at the summation of his sentence . SO now you KNOW church what withholds before HE < JESUS , is revealed . JESUS. Look at the first line , ABOUT THE LORDS DAY , THE LORDS COMING . then he breaks down what will happen , THEN he tells the church , SO NOW you KNOW what withholds that HE < JESUS , may be revealed IN HIS TIME . I warn and remind us all, DO NOT have a thing to do with any mark in or on GODS TEMPLE . Butero will see it in time to come when this is all kicking off and we aint been raptured . I WARN us all, A WORLD WIDE , AS IN WORLD WIDE PERSECUTION IS COMING AND WE BETTER BE FULLY PERSAUDED THAT NO MATTER WHAT THE COST WE TAKE NO MARK , WE FOLLOW ONLY JESUS AND IF WE DIE , WE DIE . FOR WHETHER WE LIVE OR DIE WE THE LORDS . GET THE PEOPLE PREPARED TO FACE AND ENDURE COMING TRIBULATION .
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Post by tlsitd on Aug 16, 2018 13:40:22 GMT -5
Sister lights we must continue more than ever to exhort all to be prepared to lose all for JESUS and even die . Everything paul told them in second thess was concering what had to occur BEFORE JESUS RETURNS . I mean look at the summation of his sentence . SO now you KNOW church what withholds before HE < JESUS , is revealed . JESUS. Look at the first line , ABOUT THE LORDS DAY , THE LORDS COMING . then he breaks down what will happen , THEN he tells the church , SO NOW you KNOW what withholds that HE < JESUS , may be revealed IN HIS TIME . I warn and remind us all, DO NOT have a thing to do with any mark in or on GODS TEMPLE . Butero will see it in time to come when this is all kicking off and we aint been raptured . I WARN us all, A WORLD WIDE , AS IN WORLD WIDE PERSECUTION IS COMING AND WE BETTER BE FULLY PERSAUDED THAT NO MATTER WHAT THE COST WE TAKE NO MARK , WE FOLLOW ONLY JESUS AND IF WE DIE , WE DIE . FOR WHETHER WE LIVE OR DIE WE THE LORDS . GET THE PEOPLE PREPARED TO FACE AND ENDURE COMING TRIBULATION . Regardless of what people WANT to hear and believe, with conscience toward the Lord Jesus Christ we must speak the truth that we know. It may be pleasant to hear false teachings that make us feel good, for a moment, but it won't be pleasant when those erroneous beliefs and teachings are shattered by reality. Godly encouragement must be done according to the truth, not according to error that makes people feel good and gives them false hope. They may not appreciate that truthful warning now, and think that the people warning them are pessimistic "gloom and doomers" trying to scare them for no reason, but they'll be glad they heard it in the future. And they won't be happy with the people who comforted them with false assurances.
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Post by Giller on Sept 22, 2018 13:49:24 GMT -5
Poonen mentions how that the rapture is causing people to fall away from the faith, and thus not being prepared when persecution hits. I would disagree that in and of itself, that this is the real cause of their falling away. And in truth, is the rapture the real cause? Or is it them not receiving the word of God in a balanced way that is the real cause? The bible says this: 2Ti 3:12 (12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
| Luk 21:36 (36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
| Luk 19:13 (13) And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
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The bible teaches the resurrection (rapture), and us suffering persecution as a result of living godly. It is important that preachers preach both on the resurrection and the fact that if you live godly you shall face persecution. Ignoring one or the other is not good. So it is possible that these people who fell away, were not thought to prepare for current persecution, but just because there may have been a lack of teaching on this, does not mean that you blame another scriptural doctrine for its results. The rapture is not denying present persecution, it just shows us that we will escape this future persecution and wrath, for we shall escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man, and one of those things that we shall escape is the wrath of the second coming, but we shall stand before the Son of man, having escaped all these things, which the beginning part of these things that shall come to pass, happens way before the second coming takes place.
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