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Post by John on Apr 28, 2018 17:47:38 GMT -5
The word translated to form is toar, and it means appearance, so what it is saying is that Jesus had no appearance or comeliness that we would desire him. It is not saying he literally has no form as in no fleshly body.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Apr 28, 2018 18:47:51 GMT -5
Ahhh, but now the plot thickens. The word that shows up as beauty there is mareh, which means appearance, in the sense of something that appears to your visual senses. There isn't any other place in Scripture where that word means beauty. Also, KJV inserts a semicolon between those two thoughts, almost like they are separate.
Is it all blended together as if to say, 'He has no beautiful appearance or comeliness that would make us desire Him'
or...
Are these two ideas, as if to say, 'He has no form nor visible comeliness, and He has no desirable appearance'
KJV (along with many other good translations) actually suggests the second one.
I certainly don't mean to suggest that Jesus had no physical body. Of course He was incarnated into a human body. But why would it matter to Isaiah that Jesus wasn't a handsome guy? Did people really reject Him because He wasn't handsome enough? The Bible gives us no physical descriptions of anyone in the New Testament, so it would be quite a departure for Isaiah to mean that here.
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Post by John on Apr 29, 2018 11:49:03 GMT -5
Ahhh, but now the plot thickens. The word that shows up as beauty there is mareh, which means appearance, in the sense of something that appears to your visual senses. There isn't any other place in Scripture where that word means beauty. Also, KJV inserts a semicolon between those two thoughts, almost like they are separate. Is it all blended together as if to say, 'He has no beautiful appearance or comeliness that would make us desire Him' or... Are these two ideas, as if to say, 'He has no form nor visible comeliness, and He has no desirable appearance' KJV (along with many other good translations) actually suggests the second one. I certainly don't mean to suggest that Jesus had no physical body. Of course He was incarnated into a human body. But why would it matter to Isaiah that Jesus wasn't a handsome guy? Did people really reject Him because He wasn't handsome enough? The Bible gives us no physical descriptions of anyone in the New Testament, so it would be quite a departure for Isaiah to mean that here. \ I am coming from the standpoint that his ugly appearance refers to how he looked after being abused, not how he appeared before that. There were multitudes of people praising him as he entered Jerusalem, until the religious crowd turned them away from him. Then, after he was beaten and crucified, it looked like he was just a mortal man, and a deceiver. After all, if this was the Son of God, why didn't God send angels to deliver him? Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Apr 29, 2018 11:51:44 GMT -5
Fair enough! We don’t have to agree on every little thing.
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Post by Sister on Apr 29, 2018 18:57:49 GMT -5
Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. The same Word was from the beginning. After Jesus died and rose, the Word of God returned to spirit again.
For us, we didn't get to see him or hear his voice physically, yet we believe, because we have received the Word of God through the scriptures.
With everything there is an invisible and a visible. Carnal, and spiritual. The physical Word of God was Jesus in the flesh, and the spiritual Word of God is the spiritual meat that feeds our souls. In the Word of God is the spirit of truth. How do you see truth? It has no shape or form, but it's there, real, and has power to transform us and give us salvation. We did not come to Christ because we saw his form or shape, but came to him because our lives were in darkness and he was that light. That light was truth. So for us, there was no physical beauty that we should desire him, but the beauty of truth which has no shape or form but is real and exists.
I think the prophesy was for those back then, and for us now. It has a two fold meaning, because to me, no form means no shape, and what I saw straight away in that scripture is that you cannot see truth physically because it's not tangible, but a power.
All your other answers were right concerning Jesus in the flesh, but I was seeing the spiritual Word of God in there, a deeper meaning hidden in there. Two meanings, one for the eyes, and one for the spirit concerning the Word of God. I could be wrong, but that's what I saw with my understanding.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Apr 30, 2018 6:50:25 GMT -5
I don't think we have to choose between His physical incarnate body and His spiritual divine nature. Jesus was both at once. So it seems natural that Isaiah would show us both sides.
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Post by PG4Him on Apr 30, 2018 6:56:56 GMT -5
With that part cleared up, let's talk about a detail that bothers me...
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Why is Jesus given a divided portion here? Why would He -- king of kings and lord of lords -- take a partial amount?
It so happens that just last night I heard a preacher mention this. He had a very interesting view. But now I have to see if I can find that sermon on YouTube. It was a bit too complex for me to recite from memory.
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Post by John on Apr 30, 2018 8:38:59 GMT -5
With that part cleared up, let's talk about a detail that bothers me... Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.Why is Jesus given a divided portion here? Why would He -- king of kings and lord of lords -- take a partial amount? It so happens that just last night I heard a preacher mention this. He had a very interesting view. But now I have to see if I can find that sermon on YouTube. It was a bit too complex for me to recite from memory. I take that to mean we will rule and reign with him. That doesn't make us his equal. I see this as during the millennial reign. The spoils to me are from Armageddon, and they are rewards given for going to battle and fighting along side of Jesus. He chooses to do that, in my opinion.
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Post by John on Apr 30, 2018 8:44:52 GMT -5
I think most of it is pretty obvious, but I did look for possible hidden truth, and here is what I came up with. That during the millennial reign, Jesus will share the spoils of war with those who fought beside him at Armageddon, and he will also share power, though he remains Lord of all. We will rule and reign with him. There is also the matter of declaring "his generation." I take that to be those declaring his soon coming Kingdom. John the Baptist first declared that the Kingdom of heaven is at hand. How much closer are we now to seeing it on this earth. I wrote this earlier in the thread, and that is what I was talking about PG4him. That portion of the text is where I thought I spotted something with a not so obvious answer, and I had to take a closer look. I am not saying I am sure I have the right answer, but this is what I feel like it means.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Apr 30, 2018 8:53:07 GMT -5
How did I miss that the first time around? I must have gotten sidetracked by the plant in the desert.
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Post by Sister on Apr 30, 2018 10:33:49 GMT -5
With that part cleared up, let's talk about a detail that bothers me... Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.Why is Jesus given a divided portion here? Why would He -- king of kings and lord of lords -- take a partial amount? It so happens that just last night I heard a preacher mention this. He had a very interesting view. But now I have to see if I can find that sermon on YouTube. It was a bit too complex for me to recite from memory. Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
This shows that not all stars will have the same brightness.
Could "these great" be those of whom Christ was speaking about above? God will divide "The Word" amongst his great by giving them all a portion (of The Word),..every one gets a piece, .. shared out amongst the faithful....and then Christ will divide the spoil with the strong, (reward those same ones) at his return. Everything that the Lord takes back from the world will be shared amongst his loyal ones, who are the strong. In the kingdom, it will be a righteous governing system. The loyal will be in charge of those under them. For example, the angels of God have their positions. Not all are cherubims, and seraphims. Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, & Raphael are one of God's top angels. They have more responsibility, and in charge of angels under them. It will be the same in the kingdom with the saints as Christ just proved to us in Matthew, from the least to the greatest.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2018 14:16:00 GMT -5
Mat 25:23
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
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Post by frienduff on Apr 30, 2018 16:02:12 GMT -5
With that part cleared up, let's talk about a detail that bothers me... Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.Why is Jesus given a divided portion here? Why would He -- king of kings and lord of lords -- take a partial amount? It so happens that just last night I heard a preacher mention this. He had a very interesting view. But now I have to see if I can find that sermon on YouTube. It was a bit too complex for me to recite from memory.
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Post by frienduff on Apr 30, 2018 16:04:39 GMT -5
I had THE WORST feeling hit my like a ton of bricks . OH dear this is HOW some can try and make it seem LIKE JESUS is only give a part but so is allah , budda , others . I don't KNOW why THIS HIT ME SO HARD . but I have the worst feeling about it . They have used other parts of the old test to do this . NO suprises if they do this with that one . Watch out for any kind of this .
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PG4Him
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Isaiah 53
Apr 30, 2018 17:23:05 GMT -5
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Post by PG4Him on Apr 30, 2018 17:23:05 GMT -5
I had THE WORST feeling hit my like a ton of bricks . OH dear this is HOW some can try and make it seem LIKE JESUS is only give a part but so is allah , budda , others . I don't KNOW why THIS HIT ME SO HARD . but I have the worst feeling about it . They have used other parts of the old test to do this . NO suprises if they do this with that one . Watch out for any kind of this . That’s a real possibility, Friend.
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