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Post by PG4Him on Sept 11, 2018 7:03:56 GMT -5
Knowledge comes to all of us at the intersection of faith and reason. It takes a bit of both for the knowledge of God to stick in our minds, and it's wise to let them govern each other. I reject the idea that reason itself is a carnal malfunction. Reason is what separates us from the animals. Some Christians lean heavily on faith to show them things, then they solidify it with reason. Other Christians commune with God well in the arena of sanctified reason, and their faith is quickened by what they discover. Both approaches are valid as long as communion with God is occurring.
As I see it, we should focus less on judging approaches and more on judging fruits. Nowhere on this thread have I said those who do things different from me cannot reach the truth. If you see me defending sin or pushing wacky theology, then my approach might need to be examined. But if I'm reaching the same doctrinal conclusions as you are, then what have I done wrong?
The OP gave some good, basic guidelines for Christians who have trouble veering into bad doctrine. If they could ultimately help to keep a confused Christian out of the ditch, that would be a good thing.
Yes, Paul told us that anything outside of faith is of sin. But if my reason has been sanctified and brought under submission to faith, why can I not use it to explore my faith? If my body has been sanctified to be a temple of the Lord, then it's not a sin for me to have a body. If a soft heart was given in place of my hard heart, then it's not a sin to feel proper affection for my brethren. Likewise, if my mind has been transformed and redirected, it's not a sin to use my mind.
I hope you all can understand/appreciate what I'm trying to say.
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Post by John on Sept 11, 2018 7:10:30 GMT -5
The Bible is God's word. If all I needed to do was ask the Spirit for understanding on every possible subject without study, and ignore all context if my beliefs don't agree, why do I need a Bible? The Bible is what we should look to for confirmation our beliefs are correct.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 11, 2018 7:14:25 GMT -5
Yes, Paul told us that anything outside of faith is of sin. But if my reason has been sanctified and brought under submission to faith, why can I not use it to explore my faith?
It is not by comparing word by word.
"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but
which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual." - 1 Corinthians 2:13
But I see many people going and saying: You must study hard, seek to discover by myself.
You part is just to hear, and wait for understanding. When it comes, you know when it comes.
"And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ." - Matthew 23:10
Seeking and discovering out of faith is the most common error people make. |
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 11, 2018 7:19:28 GMT -5
To simply put it , GOD alone puts the Love o truth on our hearts . and He will give us the understanding in Time as we read and learn that bible . Butero you right , many folks put spins on what the bible says . But I bet you notice , that NO LAMB buys the lies of men gone wrong . JESUS KEEPS HIS SHEEP , this is a fact . And no lamb will even remotely like the whiff of anything that contradicts the truth of that bible . A true lamb can smell the rotted intepreations a mile away . I don't know how else to say it . GOD alone kept me from being deceived . HE DID that . I promise its true . Even as a wee babe , if anything was said that was off, IN spirit I knew it was off . I mean JESUS really does KEEP HIS OWN . Generally I believe that is true. HOWEVER, I must say, that the fact that someone is deceived about what the word of God teaches about a particular things does not necessarily mean that the person doesn't have the Holy Spirit in them. There are many Christians who believe that the Bible teaches or doesn't teach things that it actually doesn't or does teach. God hasn't shown them the truth about those things. It doesn't mean He isn't in them. (We should be careful not to judge other people's spiritual state merely by their understanding of Scripture. Yikes. Fruit needs to be taken into consideration also. We've all believed things we thought the Scriptures taught and been corrected on those things by God later, I'm sure.) One main reason for being deceived about what the Scriptures do or don't teach, as far as true Christians are concerned, is what they are doing with what they already know. If we know that the Scriptures teach something, and are knowingly choosing not to obey that truth, it's very likely that God will allow us to be deceived by demonic influences or by our own mind when we read His word for truth. When this happens, you get into a place of "anything can mean anything", and doubting everything that the Bible teaches, looking for alternative meanings of what is written than what is spelled out, looking for Bible codes, getting into conspiracy theories and so forth. It's a bad situation. Rejecting light and refusing to walk in it results in greater darkness. Pride also leads to confusion. A Christian with a proud heart can study the word as much as he or she wants to, but God will withhold the correct interpretation of it from him or her for that reason, until he or she gets the attitude of his or her heart right. So we should always make sure that we read the Bible humbly, and with pure motives. God knows our hearts, and He is the one on whom our understanding of His word depends. He can conceal truth just as He can reveal truth; and He opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble---including the grace to understand the Scriptures. |
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 11, 2018 7:25:33 GMT -5
Yes, Paul told us that anything outside of faith is of sin. But if my reason has been sanctified and brought under submission to faith, why can I not use it to explore my faith?
It is not by comparing word by word.
"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but
which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual." - 1 Corinthians 2:13
But I see many people going and saying: You must study hard, seek to discover by myself.
You part is just to hear, and wait for understanding. When it comes, you know when it comes.
"And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ." - Matthew 23:10
Seeking and discovering out of faith is the most common error people make.Brother, let me humbly and carefully ask you a question. This is not to be vicious, but to try to get to the root of the matter. Nowhere did I say you must do things my way. If you're uncomfortable with how I study Scripture, that's okay. I'm not forcing you to be like me. But you seem to want to force your way on me. Are you saying that your way is the only way, your conclusion is the only right answer, and if I disagree with you I must be in the flesh? Are you saying that I must go to my prayer closet, repent for my rebellion, get a spiritual clue, and then God will of course show me that you are right and I am wrong? Didn't we just have a big discussion about "I am 100% right and you must agree with me" in this group? Where have I faltered in my doctrine? Where has my approach led me away from God? |
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 11, 2018 7:26:00 GMT -5
Generally I believe that is true. HOWEVER, I must say, that the fact that someone is deceived about what the word of God teaches about a particular things does not necessarily mean...
Who is right?! There is only one truth. |
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 11, 2018 7:28:40 GMT -5
Brother, let me humbly and carefully ask you a question. This is not to be vicious, but to try to get to the root of the matter. Nowhere did I say you must do things my way. If you're uncomfortable with how I study Scripture, that's okay. I'm not forcing you to be like me. But you seem to want to force your way on me. Are you saying that your way is the only way, your conclusion is the only right answer, and if I disagree with you I must be in the flesh? Are you saying that I must go to my prayer closet, repent for my rebellion, get a spiritual clue, and then God will of course show me that you are right and I am wrong? Didn't we just have a big discussion about "I am 100% right and you must agree with me" in this group? Where have I faltered in my doctrine? Where has my approach led me away from God?
I am just telling about the best method: To trust solely on the Spirit.
The more you trust in the Spirit the better.
There is no such thing as trusting too much on the Spirit, it is impossible. |
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 11, 2018 7:33:47 GMT -5
I am just giving general advice. I am just telling about the best method: To trust solely on the Spirit. The more you trust in the Spirit the better. There is no such thing as trusting too much on the Spirit, it is impossible. I will try once more, and then I'm probably done. Why do you think I can't trust the Spirit by speaking to Him through sanctified reason? |
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 11, 2018 7:38:42 GMT -5
I will try once more, and then I'm probably done. Why do you think I can't trust the Spirit by speaking to Him through sanctified reason?
The only thing I can recommend is: Trust in the Spirit.
That's the only thing I want to say. If you do that, fine. |
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Post by John on Sept 11, 2018 7:41:53 GMT -5
Yes, Paul told us that anything outside of faith is of sin. But if my reason has been sanctified and brought under submission to faith, why can I not use it to explore my faith?
It is not by comparing word by word.
"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but
which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual." - 1 Corinthians 2:13
But I see many people going and saying: You must study hard, seek to discover by myself.
You part is just to hear, and wait for understanding. When it comes, you know when it comes.
"And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ." - Matthew 23:10
Seeking and discovering out of faith is the most common error people make.
"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2 Timothy 4:2-4
We are commanded of God to study, not just read and ask. We are told to rightly divide the word of truth, and that requires studying hard. If we don't do that, we will be ashamed. We are told to use doctrine. We need to use basic common sense when studying scripture. Look at what it is saying in context. Compare scriptures on the same topic. Know the meaning of the words. If after all of that, you are stumped, ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand what you have read. Sometimes this will occur instantly, and sometimes God wants you to continue seeking for a time, and the answer will come later on, but it will never contradict the written Word. If it does contradict the Bible, then the understanding we thought came from God came from our own heads.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2018 7:42:05 GMT -5
Haven't read the whole thread, so hope this isn't repeating what has already been said. If we remember that we exist in a fallen condition and understand that God's thoughts are higher than ours.....then we can understand why the carnal mind cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and needs to be re-newed....ie, to be made spiritual. When we reason, we should be reasoning in the spirit with the word of God. Without His light our minds are darkened. When the Lord said, "come now, let us reason together" He wasn't talking about carnal logic..."though your sins be as scarlet they shall be made white as snow" is not logical. The perfect spotless Son of God dying for a wretched horrible sinful undeserving race of people is not logical. The Holy Spirit lifts our minds out of the heavy mud & mire of flesh that the carnal mind is stuck in, into the mind of Christ, so to speak. Ours is an UPward call. We even need the mind of Christ to grasp this.
Suffering is just a necessary part of the upward call....who falls on the Rock will be broken.....there is just no other way. Our fleshly nature needs to be broken in order to be made spiritual. Sometimes that is through pain of various kinds, sometimes it is through starving our carnal nature to death when it doesn't get what it wants/needs in order to stay alive. God leads us through various tribulations and trials in order that we would have the image of His Son stamped or engraved upon us...on our minds and our nature. Our whole life is for the carrying of our cross in order to crucify (break and put to death) the carnal nature. Jesus' body was broken....likewise we who follow in His footsteps will be and need to be broken. Think of a rider breaking in a wild horse until the horse and Rider are as one....likewise our carnal nature and self-will needs to be broken to be made conformable and obedient to Christ....who is flesh no longer, but spirit.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 11, 2018 7:42:21 GMT -5
Either the flesh profits nothing or it does profit....either the carnal mind is enmity with God or it isn't.....but it can't be both. This is not my own reasonings, it is simply the truth and word of God. Let us not be found arguing with the Lord. Remember there are two leavens we need to beware of. Anyway I'll just leave it at that...for any who might care to think upon it...because these are things that need to be pondered prayerfully because God is the only one who can give the understanding. 1. "The flesh profits nothing" doesn't have anything to do with this particular topic. Jesus was speaking about salvation, and contrasting the necessity of the Holy Spirit to be saved with the physical symbols of the spiritual realities that cannot save, which realities are found in Himself. (This is a good example of the importance of examining Scripture in its context, and not applying Scriptures to things they don't apply to, which is confusion. I'm not trying to be mean, just using this example practically to make the point about what I wrote in the OP, for the benefit of others: This is an example of why doing those things is a good idea.) 2. No person who has been born again has a carnal mind that cannot understand the truths of the Spirit in God's word. The man without the Spirit cannot understand them with his mind; the man with the Spirit can understand them with his mind, because the Spirit gives him understanding. (Now that doesn't mean that a Christian can't be more carnal than spiritual in his or her attitudes because of the sinful nature and spiritual immaturity, but he or she still has the spiritual ability to understand God's spiritual truths and to grow up in understanding by them.) |
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 11, 2018 7:47:48 GMT -5
We are commanded of God to study, not just read and ask. We are told to rightly divide the word of truth, and that requires studying hard. If we don't do that, we will be ashamed.
Trust in the Spirit, and you will never be ashamed as it is written:
"For the Scripture says,
“Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”" - Romans 10:11 |
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 11, 2018 7:49:16 GMT -5
Hermeneutics is a pagan method of interpreting literature, names after the Greek messenger god Hermes. Christians started incorporating it's rules to study the Bible. While I have never followed it's "laws of literature," before I ever heard of hermeneutics, I looked for context, compared scripture with scripture and used a Greek and Hebrew Dictionary. In addition, I seek the Comforter for understanding.
When I use the word hermeneutic I simply mean a method of interpreting the Scripture, not a formal science: Comparing Scripture with Scripture and examining verses in their context, as well as in the greater context of the complete Scriptures that pertain to a particular subject, and paying attention to words without skipping over them when one reads. Maybe there is another word for this but I don't know it. I've never studied the science of hermeneutics. You can substitute: A method or practice of studying and interpreting the Scriptures for the word hermeneutic. |
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 11, 2018 7:54:37 GMT -5
A couple of things, sister: Are you suggesting that hermeneutics is a scholarly invention of carnal man that is contrary to faith, rather than a logical approach to reading the Scriptures that complements faith?
Or who has become His counselor?" - Romans 11:34
"For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”
But we have the mind of Christ." - 1 Corinthians 2:16
"...Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God." - 1 Corinthians 2:11
"that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”" - 1 Corinthians 1:3
I am not ashamed to say: Everything I have learned was by faith in the Lord.
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;" - Proverbs 3:5
"Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work
Among this people,
A marvelous work and a wonder;
For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden." - Isaiah 29:14
"For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." - Romans 11:36
And I will add: I do not keep list of important Scriptures for easy remembrance or something.
I trust solely on the Spirit to bring to my remembrance all things I write.
Obviously, I copy and paste Scriptures; He just remembers me the words.
And He remembers me, I do not have a quick list or something like that to ponder from.
Glory to God!I think what you are expressing in this post was already addressed in my responses to Watchful, so I'm going to refer you to those rather than repeating myself here. |
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