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Post by John on Aug 29, 2018 21:13:43 GMT -5
I held my tongue on this until now (pun intended) the topic is kind of about the teaching to pray in tongues, it was mentioned elsewhere on this forum as grade A bologna. And before i get into what i want to say i want to say I agree with that to a point. and that point is a lot of whats being taught is false. When i had hands laid on me it was by three people at once. two deacons and one older lady who was the one who was the one who was over the prayer team. she was good too. she organized shifts and 24 hours a day someone was praying for the church and any prayer needs mentioned to them. anyway. The lady said receive The Holy Spirit and in a tiny whisper out came another language but it startled me and i stopped talking. She told me several times to try again, you can do it. i still remember her words... it just kinda bubbles out. when she said that i could see in my minds eye little bubbles going up. I dont think i was taught to do it, but how to let it come out. She did coach me and got me going. I said all that not to defend teaching it but to say this....I think some people out there do have the gift but are not aware they do. Again, whats being taught in some places is false, but some people do need a nudge, others dont. And i am not really saying this to start a debate just to share my experience. If my experience is not worthy of considering, then please, dont consider it. I was at a tent revival. The minister laid hands on me, and I was slain in the Spirit. While I was laying on the ground, I had stammering lips. I had this experience in times past, and someone said to speak forth, and I did. This is all I know about the experience and tongues. When I pray in tongues, I will always be inspired to give the Lord praise and worship afterward. It is always that way. That makes me think the words being spoken is praise to God. I can't imagine the devil would inspire anyone to praise the Lord.
This stuff about sitting back and judging a person's prayer language isn't Biblical. I am not concerned with trying to determine if there is more than one angelic language or if they are speaking in an earthly tongue. There is no need for me to concern myself with that. Now if a person is giving a message in tongues, I should judge the interpretation to make sure it lines up with the Bible, but not judging people's prayers.
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Post by John on Oct 4, 2018 6:46:18 GMT -5
There is a lot of misunderstanding about the baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues. I want to try to address this from the Bible and from my understanding as a Pentecostal Pastor. I was Pastor of a Pentecostal Holiness Church, and am very familiar with what the Bible teaches and what Pentecostals and charismatic churches teach. These two groups are not exactly the same, as Apostolic churches also differ in certain areas. I am not concerned with explaining the differences so much as just showing what the Bible has to say. Let's begin with the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me because I go to the Father. John 16:7-16
Jesus considered the Baptism of the Holy Ghost of great importance. It was not some after thought or something that was of little value compared to everything else.
And being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:4-8
Once again, Jesus places great emphasis on the Baptism in the Holy Ghost. Before I continue, every born again Christian has a measure of the Spirit, or they wouldn't belong to Christ, but not every Christian has received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Let's move on.
AND when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:1-4
Before we continue, notice a couple of things. First of all, they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues. It was not just some of them that spoke in tongues, but all of them. This event occurred while they were in the upper room, and they all spoke the same language, so they didn't need to speak in other tongues in the upper room to be understood. As a matter of fact, they wouldn't understand other tongues. If this was only for some and only so people of other languages could understand, why would they need to all speak with other tongues while in the upper room?
Apparently, they leave the upper room and go out into the streets, and are still speaking in tongues. As a result, people heard them speaking in different languages. At the time, there were people gathered there from "every nation under heaven" and they heard these men speak "in our own tongue, wherein we were born." They were speaking in real languages, but not ones they had ever learned. The Spirit was speaking through them. What were they speaking? "The wonderful works of God." I am not convinced they were preaching a sermon or anything close to that. They were likely praising God in words they didn't understand, but the people gathered there did. Speaking in tongues was an initial evidence they had received the Holy Spirit, and they were not the only people to experience this.
In Acts Chapter 10, Peter went to the house of a gentile named Cornelius to preach the gospel to him and his family. Notice what it says happened after they believed and got saved. Verses 44-48
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Notice that the Holy Ghost fell on all of them which heard the word, not some of them. The Apostles recognized they had been filled because of the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. Once again, this is not the final example we have that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence. We are given a third example. In Acts chapter 19, the Apostles encountered people that believed because of John the Baptist and had received water baptism, but not the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Notice what it says in verse 2-6
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them; the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
It wasn't just a few that spoke in tongues, but all of them as an initial evidence. I would also point out that Simon the sorcerer saw this taking place, and desired the ability to lay hands on people to where they would receive the Holy Ghost. There had to be some kind of evidence people were receiving or he wouldn't try to purchase this ability with money. It is separate from the salvation experience. It is also different from the gift of the Spirit of speaking in tongues. The Holy Ghost himself is a gift from God, but the Holy spirit will then give additional gifts to Christians to use for God's purposes. One is called the gift of tongues and there is also the gift of interpretation of tongues. The Bible speaks of that in Corinthians, and gives certain guidelines for using these gifts so people won't do things that are disruptive and out of order. If a person speaks in tongues, to be in order, there must be an interpretation given. The question came up about all the people speaking in tongues that don't interpret. In Pentecostal churches, the people do not sit quietly while one person prays a prayer for all, but everyone prays in their own words at the same time, and sometimes that is in tongues. These prayers are personal and don't require an interpretation, and are not out of order or disruptive. There is no reason to sit around trying to judge if they are praying in a real language. That is between them and God. We have reason to judge doctrine, not individual's prayer language.
I want to address something else. There are tongues of angels, as Paul mentions them. In 1 Corinthians 13:1, it says, "THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." Paul says in chapter 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." This is the prayer language we receive when we are baptized in the Holy Ghost. That is different from the gift of tongues. In 1 Corinthians 14:3,4, Paul says "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." They are two different things. Paul did not make light of prayer tongues. In chapter 14:18,19 he says, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." Jesus didn't make light of tongues and neither did Paul. Paul is speaking of doing things in an orderly manner. That is all.
As far as being slain in the Spirit goes, I have experienced this many times and have prayed for at least one person that was slain in the Spirit. If you have never experienced it, you wouldn't understand. This is nothing more than going into a trance like state for a time while the Spirit of God ministers to you. Trances are in the Bible. Peter went into a trance and saw a vision that led to him going to preach to Cornelius and his household.
Are there things taking place in the church world that are not from God? Of course there is. I am aware of the church where someone was wearing a dog collar and chain and saying that "where he is I will follow." That was nothing more than flesh. It was a type of word picture. An example like that hardly compares with someone being under the power of God so strong they fall into a trance. I have heard of people rolling on the floor, which led to the name, "holy rollers," but I have never seen or experienced this. I have heard of many different things taking place in charismatic and Pentecostal churches that are questionable, but it is my position that every person that receives the baptism in the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues when they are initially filled, and there are numerous examples of this in Acts as I have already shown. I pray in tongues on a regular basis. It is really nobody's place to judge whether it is real or not. I am very careful about judging any potential manifestation of the Spirit. I might question some things within myself, but it has to be completely unbiblical for me to openly attack it.
I am sure this will lead to questions, or I expect it will. Feel free. I will do my best to answer them, but I think I have pretty well made my position clear as to what I believe.
I am bringing this back up because of a competing thread that claims not all who are baptized in the Holy Spirit speak in tongues. Here I am making my case that yes they do. I have no problem with people who disagree. This is a message board, and I am happy to consider different opinions, but since I already addressed this once, I figured it was worth bringing it back up so it can be seen and compared with the other thread and everyone can make up their own mind.
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Post by Giller on Oct 6, 2018 1:29:19 GMT -5
Tongues no doubt is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Now I also know that there are differences of opinion on what tongues are. Some will mention the fact that they can refer to either a foreign language that a person does not know but that is known in the world, and to also a tongue only known to God. And others believe that they only refer to a foreign language that is not known to the person, but known to someone else. Now I personally believe that you do not need the Greek to determine this, you just need to read things in context and read what it specifically says. But here I will use the Greek just to show what it says, and certain comments. Now here are some scriptures: 1Co 14:2 (2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
| 1Co 14:5 (5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
| 1Co 14:22 (22) Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
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Now the words, unknown tongue and tongues, they both have the same Greek word, here they are from Strong's and Thayer: (Strong's)
(G1100 γλῶσσα glōssa gloce'-sah Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired): - tongue. Total KJV occurrences: 50)
| (Thayer)
(G1100 γλῶσσα glōssa Thayer Definition: 1) the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech 2) a tongue 1a) the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations Part of Speech: noun feminine A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity) |
Some of the synonyms of the word affinity are: similarity, relationship, relation, connection. In the Strong's concordance it shows some type of language not naturally acquired, but does not specify anything about a foreign language, but it is of uncertain relation or connection (affinity). But in the Thayer's it specifies foreign languages used by a particular people but distinct from that of other nations, but also mentions what the Strong's says of uncertain affinity. And notice when it speaks of an unknown tongue, it is written in singular, but when it mentions tongues it is written in the plural. An unknown tongue, I believe refers to a certain language ( singular (tongue)) that God only knows, and tongues themselves can refer to either foreign languages that a person does not know, or an unknown tongue, hence tongues ( plural). But now let us go unto another scripture: 1Co 14:21 (21) In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Now the Greek word for other tongues, is a completely different Greek word. Here they are from both Strong's and Thayer: (Strong's)
(G2084 ἑτερόγλωσσος heteroglōssos het-er-og'-loce-sos From G2087 and G1100; other tongued, that is, a foreigner: - man of other tongue. Total KJV occurrences: 1) | (Thayer)
(G2084 ἑτερόγλωσσος heteroglōssos Thayer Definition: 1) one who speaks a foreign language Part of Speech: adjective A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2087 and G1100) |
Both Thayer and Strong's mention a foreigner, with his language. So the word other tongues is totally specific to only referring to a foreign language, and shows nothing of uncertain affinity. I believe the only way to determine what an unknown tongue is referring to, is in it's verse, which says: 1Co 14:2 (2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. It is not showing any exceptions here, it says no man understandeth him, absolutely no man, no exceptions, no specifications otherwise, and God is very specific, and shows exceptions when there are exceptions. It is not saying no man among you, or no man in the region, but no man period. I will leave this with a quote from John Wesley: (John Wesley) (1 Corinthians 14:2 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaks, in effect, not to men, but to God - Who alone understands him.)
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Post by Sister on Oct 6, 2018 5:30:23 GMT -5
Hi Giller
I have never spoken in tongues so I have a question. When you are speaking in tongues, and the person next to you is also, can you understand each other?
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Post by 2fw8212a on Oct 6, 2018 6:21:05 GMT -5
Hi Giller
I have never spoken in tongues so I have a question. When you are speaking in tongues, and the person next to you is also, can you understand each other?
No. Unless they have the gift of interpretation.
"Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret." - 1 Corinthians 14:13
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Post by 2fw8212a on Oct 6, 2018 6:36:06 GMT -5
Tongues no doubt is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Tongues is just one of the evidences. The evidence for the believer himself is that they know they have received.
More information about it here: narrow-way-forums.freeforums.net/thread/770/steps-salvation
Consequently, another evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the fruits in the life of a believer.
Those who are baptized with the Holy Spirit will live like Jesus, being led by the Spirit and not the flesh.
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." - Romans 8:9
"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit." - Romans 8:5
It is a promise of the Lord Jesus, that is the evidence of being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
"I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." - Luke 3:16
He will baptize with the Holy Spirit those who are His.
"...He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn..." - Luke 3:17
"So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified." - Acts 20:32
"to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me." - Acts 26:18
He will baptize with fire those who are not His.
"...but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire." - Luke 3:17
"It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever..." - Isaiah 34:10
"...the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8
"...just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." - Galatians 5:21
"And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:15
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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Post by Giller on Oct 6, 2018 9:58:09 GMT -5
Hi Giller
I have never spoken in tongues so I have a question. When you are speaking in tongues, and the person next to you is also, can you understand each other?
No I never understand what they are saying, the only way one can is if they are speaking in an language that is not known to them but known to the next person, such as say Chinese, but if they are speaking in an unknown tongue, you cannot understand what they are saying.
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Post by John on Oct 6, 2018 20:34:32 GMT -5
Tongues no doubt is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Tongues is just one of the evidences. The evidence for the believer himself is that they know they have received.
More information about it here: narrow-way-forums.freeforums.net/thread/770/steps-salvation
Consequently, another evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the fruits in the life of a believer.
Those who are baptized with the Holy Spirit will live like Jesus, being led by the Spirit and not the flesh.
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." - Romans 8:9
"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit." - Romans 8:5
It is a promise of the Lord Jesus, that is the evidence of being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
"I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." - Luke 3:16
He will baptize with the Holy Spirit those who are His.
"...He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn..." - Luke 3:17
"So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified." - Acts 20:32
"to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me." - Acts 26:18
He will baptize with fire those who are not His.
"...but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire." - Luke 3:17
"It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever..." - Isaiah 34:10
"...the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8
"...just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." - Galatians 5:21
"And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:15
Blessings in Jesus' name! The problem with this argument is these other evidences are not something you can witness at the time they receive, and it is clear from the way it is spoken of in Acts that something is taking place when they receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost that everyone can see. You can immediately see people speaking in tongues. You can't immediately see a person has the ability to stop sinning till later on. There has to be some kind of supernatural event happening or the former sorcerer wouldn't be seeking to buy the ability to lay hands on people so they could receive.
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Post by Sister on Oct 7, 2018 0:11:56 GMT -5
You know my story, how when I visited a Pentecostal church at the age of 18, I did not receive the gift of tongues and feeling rejected. This shook me up so badly, seeing others come in and receive immediately, especially knowing my own heart that it was true. So I started really looking into this, and reading about all the other gifts, how they are diverse, and then the Lord clearly showed me that the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit was the "spirit of truth",......just take a moment and think about this and what Jesus said, how the truth shall set you free.
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
And I recall now that years before I even stepped foot into that church, I had been reading the Word, and was fully touched, and it all started with hearing for the first time the real purpose of Jesus, and I read his story with tears and a longing for him, and for justice, and then I remember reading further of the epistles, and being so hungry for this truth that I realise now, I was drawn in to Christ that same day I heard his name preached, and that same day I picked up the holy scriptures, and that same day I was touched and believed what I was reading was true - that was the day I received the holy spirit - a small portion of it, but a big shaking of the earth for me, and a big promise from Christ which I didn't realise at the time, for it had to take root and start it's work in me, and grow, ....whether I excelled for a time, or failed at many times, ...but it was a promise nevertheless, and a true one.... and my journey would be full of lessons to teach me and get me to where I am today. So there I was praying for something I was already given, but I wanted a sign that I was accepted, to belong and fit in with the others, to be accepted as one of them, but God revealed to me later by the work that had already started in me - I was not to be one with that church, for I saw a different spirit, not because they spoke tongues, but because there was a doctrine of error in that church, and in the hearts of those who were trying to lead me, they were blocking me from continuing in finding that truth for myself, which Jesus promised he would give directly through the holy spirit, without mediating through man. So they were trying to put boundaries on me teaching that I could only learn from them, and to throw away all that Christ already taught, in trying to force their doctrine on me, ...in other words, indoctrinate me to accept all that they taught and not question, even if it contradicts the scriptures or doesn't make sense. Just accept and that's it, if you don't your not a true Christian and you won't get the gift of tongues, nor any other gift but will go straight to hell.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ephesians 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Our journey is all full of lessons, all the ups and downs for we are not made completely holy straight away, but sealed to be given truth and made free by that truth taking baby steps initially and learning how to walk. First we have to enter a war zone, and Christ warned us it wasn't going to be easy for we know that the devil does not want to lose us and will continually put all the temptations to draw us off that narrow path. If we get through that first part, we will receive oppression's, and what feels like a cloud of darkness hovering above because Satan will do all in his power to persecute us, and make it so hard that we come back to him. It only feels dark because he has sent his army out for us, but Christ wants us to learn the real difference between good and evil by experiencing it, and feeling the consequences that sin can do, so that we never repeat it, and this is how we grow in self control and knowledge, that his rules are to protect us. Once self control is maintained at a certain level, and Christ can see that we are still feeding on his Word, he will give more understanding. More understanding means more truth. More truth means more discipline and more discipline means more responsibilities. Christ does not want us to come to him asking for pressies, and believe because of miracles, but wants us to come to him for truth for this is what truly sets us free. Any miracle can be copied, but the truth never can. Satan knows the scriptures well, but the truth has not been given to him, therefore he will slip up when trying to imitate the truth. The most beautiful gift that can be given in my eyes, is true doctrine. And true doctrine covers everything that proceeds from the mouth of God, which is truth, and will protect us from the spirit of error and falling off that narrow path. For those who have the gift of tongues, I have no problem with, but it's not one of the gifts the Lord has given to me, and I refuse to feel rejected because of it now because what I have been given I finally acknowledge and treasure it.
Maybe in the future, when persecutions come, who knows where I will be or what I will be doing and if I speak in tongues to someone who is Chinese, or Vietnamese and my words glorify the Lord Jesus, and cause them to repent or refuse the Mark of the Beast, how happy I would be. If I started praying by myself in a closed room and tongues came out, I would certainly rejoice. I am coming to the end of my journey now, and have traveled that dark road with all the thorns and temptations, and the lessons learned, and what lies ahead for the last part is going to be full of surprises. If you have received this gift of tongues already I am happy for you. And if this gift convicted you of your sin, and made you love Jesus and the truth even more, and he needed to give this to you for encouragement, and it's the real deal, how blessed you are in him. And if you are one of those who follow the rules and have an interpreter on hand when you speak in tongues publicly and understanding is given of what the spirit has spoken through you, even better, praise the Lord.
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Post by ohms on Oct 27, 2018 1:35:34 GMT -5
Hi all. Just wanted to say: I believe I did receive the Holy Spirit when I got saved: 11th February 1978. I felt an urge within me, from my innermost being, that something was there waiting to come out. I did not know what to do about it but most of the people around me were baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues regularly. I was in a Pentecostal church; the same one where I received Jesus and repented - got completely saved. Then, on Easter Sunday that year I was baptised in water. I was on cloud 9 with the Lord and no one could take the smile off my face. A month or so later I was kneeling by my bed, alone in prayer, and suddenly I felt lifted; an exhilarating experience that I had never had before. I opened my mouth and began to speak in a tongue; and still speak in that tongue today. It is the language God gave me with which to praise Him. I know this and will always exercise my gift from the giver of life. It really is necessary as a born-again, baptised in the Holy Spirit, baptised in water, Bible believing, loving the Lord Christian to exercise that gift as the prayer language our God gives us is to be used to communicate things to Him that can't be put into words in our own language (well, not by me, anyway). Praise the Lord. I also had two visions whilst in that place of being immersed in the Holy Spirit! I say all this because it needs to be stated that we, as individuals, all experience our salvation and life with the Lord differently and as individuals. He is the God of the individual! Hallelujah!
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Post by John on Oct 31, 2018 14:53:43 GMT -5
Hi all. Just wanted to say: I believe I did receive the Holy Spirit when I got saved: 11th February 1978. I felt an urge within me, from my innermost being, that something was there waiting to come out. I did not know what to do about it but most of the people around me were baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues regularly. I was in a Pentecostal church; the same one where I received Jesus and repented - got completely saved. Then, on Easter Sunday that year I was baptised in water. I was on cloud 9 with the Lord and no one could take the smile off my face. A month or so later I was kneeling by my bed, alone in prayer, and suddenly I felt lifted; an exhilarating experience that I had never had before. I opened my mouth and began to speak in a tongue; and still speak in that tongue today. It is the language God gave me with which to praise Him. I know this and will always exercise my gift from the giver of life. It really is necessary as a born-again, baptised in the Holy Spirit, baptised in water, Bible believing, loving the Lord Christian to exercise that gift as the prayer language our God gives us is to be used to communicate things to Him that can't be put into words in our own language (well, not by me, anyway). Praise the Lord. I also had two visions whilst in that place of being immersed in the Holy Spirit! I say all this because it needs to be stated that we, as individuals, all experience our salvation and life with the Lord differently and as individuals. He is the God of the individual! Hallelujah! I love that testimony. Something I have noticed is that when I will speak in my prayer language, I am always moved to praise the Lord in my own language as well. The Bible says we should pray in the Spirit and with our own understanding. It is impossible to explain to someone who hasn't experienced this the good it does, and how it edifies self, but your post goes a long way towards doing that.
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Post by John on Feb 26, 2019 15:32:54 GMT -5
There is a lot of misunderstanding about the baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues. I want to try to address this from the Bible and from my understanding as a Pentecostal Pastor. I was Pastor of a Pentecostal Holiness Church, and am very familiar with what the Bible teaches and what Pentecostals and charismatic churches teach. These two groups are not exactly the same, as Apostolic churches also differ in certain areas. I am not concerned with explaining the differences so much as just showing what the Bible has to say. Let's begin with the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me because I go to the Father. John 16:7-16
Jesus considered the Baptism of the Holy Ghost of great importance. It was not some after thought or something that was of little value compared to everything else.
And being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:4-8
Once again, Jesus places great emphasis on the Baptism in the Holy Ghost. Before I continue, every born again Christian has a measure of the Spirit, or they wouldn't belong to Christ, but not every Christian has received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Let's move on.
AND when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:1-4
Before we continue, notice a couple of things. First of all, they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues. It was not just some of them that spoke in tongues, but all of them. This event occurred while they were in the upper room, and they all spoke the same language, so they didn't need to speak in other tongues in the upper room to be understood. As a matter of fact, they wouldn't understand other tongues. If this was only for some and only so people of other languages could understand, why would they need to all speak with other tongues while in the upper room?
Apparently, they leave the upper room and go out into the streets, and are still speaking in tongues. As a result, people heard them speaking in different languages. At the time, there were people gathered there from "every nation under heaven" and they heard these men speak "in our own tongue, wherein we were born." They were speaking in real languages, but not ones they had ever learned. The Spirit was speaking through them. What were they speaking? "The wonderful works of God." I am not convinced they were preaching a sermon or anything close to that. They were likely praising God in words they didn't understand, but the people gathered there did. Speaking in tongues was an initial evidence they had received the Holy Spirit, and they were not the only people to experience this.
In Acts Chapter 10, Peter went to the house of a gentile named Cornelius to preach the gospel to him and his family. Notice what it says happened after they believed and got saved. Verses 44-48
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Notice that the Holy Ghost fell on all of them which heard the word, not some of them. The Apostles recognized they had been filled because of the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. Once again, this is not the final example we have that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence. We are given a third example. In Acts chapter 19, the Apostles encountered people that believed because of John the Baptist and had received water baptism, but not the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Notice what it says in verse 2-6
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them; the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
It wasn't just a few that spoke in tongues, but all of them as an initial evidence. I would also point out that Simon the sorcerer saw this taking place, and desired the ability to lay hands on people to where they would receive the Holy Ghost. There had to be some kind of evidence people were receiving or he wouldn't try to purchase this ability with money. It is separate from the salvation experience. It is also different from the gift of the Spirit of speaking in tongues. The Holy Ghost himself is a gift from God, but the Holy spirit will then give additional gifts to Christians to use for God's purposes. One is called the gift of tongues and there is also the gift of interpretation of tongues. The Bible speaks of that in Corinthians, and gives certain guidelines for using these gifts so people won't do things that are disruptive and out of order. If a person speaks in tongues, to be in order, there must be an interpretation given. The question came up about all the people speaking in tongues that don't interpret. In Pentecostal churches, the people do not sit quietly while one person prays a prayer for all, but everyone prays in their own words at the same time, and sometimes that is in tongues. These prayers are personal and don't require an interpretation, and are not out of order or disruptive. There is no reason to sit around trying to judge if they are praying in a real language. That is between them and God. We have reason to judge doctrine, not individual's prayer language.
I want to address something else. There are tongues of angels, as Paul mentions them. In 1 Corinthians 13:1, it says, "THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." Paul says in chapter 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." This is the prayer language we receive when we are baptized in the Holy Ghost. That is different from the gift of tongues. In 1 Corinthians 14:3,4, Paul says "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." They are two different things. Paul did not make light of prayer tongues. In chapter 14:18,19 he says, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." Jesus didn't make light of tongues and neither did Paul. Paul is speaking of doing things in an orderly manner. That is all.
As far as being slain in the Spirit goes, I have experienced this many times and have prayed for at least one person that was slain in the Spirit. If you have never experienced it, you wouldn't understand. This is nothing more than going into a trance like state for a time while the Spirit of God ministers to you. Trances are in the Bible. Peter went into a trance and saw a vision that led to him going to preach to Cornelius and his household.
Are there things taking place in the church world that are not from God? Of course there is. I am aware of the church where someone was wearing a dog collar and chain and saying that "where he is I will follow." That was nothing more than flesh. It was a type of word picture. An example like that hardly compares with someone being under the power of God so strong they fall into a trance. I have heard of people rolling on the floor, which led to the name, "holy rollers," but I have never seen or experienced this. I have heard of many different things taking place in charismatic and Pentecostal churches that are questionable, but it is my position that every person that receives the baptism in the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues when they are initially filled, and there are numerous examples of this in Acts as I have already shown. I pray in tongues on a regular basis. It is really nobody's place to judge whether it is real or not. I am very careful about judging any potential manifestation of the Spirit. I might question some things within myself, but it has to be completely unbiblical for me to openly attack it.
I am sure this will lead to questions, or I expect it will. Feel free. I will do my best to answer them, but I think I have pretty well made my position clear as to what I believe.
The subject of the baptism of the Holy Ghost has come up before. I posted my view here, and it hasn't changed. Rather than argue this all over again, I decided to bring this thread back up.
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Cletus
Senior Member
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Post by Cletus on Feb 26, 2019 23:05:11 GMT -5
well if you are going to bring it back up i still have the same opinion too and based on this scripture...
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
i have laid hands on someone with a headache and it got better, but someone sick or going blind no. I mean, i have laid hands on, believed God is able but nothing happened. could God use me to heal someone.. sure. why not?... He Is. Can God speak thru any of His own with any language he wants?... sure. why not?... He Is.
The author is asking a question, which means time to put the thinking cap on. it seems like to me its implied do all speak with tongues is not everyone does.
I understand not everyone will agree with this. I used to believe everyone would speak in tongues once baptized with Fire. but once i really gave thought to this scripture it seems to me that no, not everyone does.
if you do not agree with me thats fine. i dont really care as this isnt really a salvation issue. I also dont really care because i do speak in tongues, interpret tongues, discern spirits, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, i have also experienced the gift of faith and miracles but was not allowed to speak freely when it was in me, i was just allowed to experience it. based on what i have told some of you God has told me i highly suspect there is one more gift He will move thru me in before i breathe my last.
I do want close with one thing. this topic has cause a lot of strife in the past. the passage i quoted above is continued with the author saying to covet earnestly the best gifts... so maybe we just have to ask seek and knock for some of them. but He continues on... yet shew I unto thee a more excellent way. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. He continues to say faith Hope and Love/charity... but the greatest is Love.
if you dont agree with me thats fine. i just dont want to see this turn into strife and arguing. because prophecy will fail/vanish and tongues will cease. Knowledge will vanish. but love never fails.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 26, 2019 23:26:35 GMT -5
Cletus , it don't matter what the pope and world thinks of you , I loves ya . Put those hands up and praise the Lord . Letters when or if you read this , come back letters .
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Post by John on Feb 27, 2019 8:22:33 GMT -5
well if you are going to bring it back up i still have the same opinion too and based on this scripture... 1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? i have laid hands on someone with a headache and it got better, but someone sick or going blind no. I mean, i have laid hands on, believed God is able but nothing happened. could God use me to heal someone.. sure. why not?... He Is. Can God speak thru any of His own with any language he wants?... sure. why not?... He Is. The author is asking a question, which means time to put the thinking cap on. it seems like to me its implied do all speak with tongues is not everyone does. I understand not everyone will agree with this. I used to believe everyone would speak in tongues once baptized with Fire. but once i really gave thought to this scripture it seems to me that no, not everyone does. if you do not agree with me thats fine. i dont really care as this isnt really a salvation issue. I also dont really care because i do speak in tongues, interpret tongues, discern spirits, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, i have also experienced the gift of faith and miracles but was not allowed to speak freely when it was in me, i was just allowed to experience it. based on what i have told some of you God has told me i highly suspect there is one more gift He will move thru me in before i breathe my last. I do want close with one thing. this topic has cause a lot of strife in the past. the passage i quoted above is continued with the author saying to covet earnestly the best gifts... so maybe we just have to ask seek and knock for some of them. but He continues on... yet shew I unto thee a more excellent way. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. He continues to say faith Hope and Love/charity... but the greatest is Love. if you dont agree with me thats fine. i just dont want to see this turn into strife and arguing. because prophecy will fail/vanish and tongues will cease. Knowledge will vanish. but love never fails. That is okay Cletus. There is no need for strife over things like this, and it is not a salvation issue. I just see the tongues people speak when they receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost as a different experience from receiving the gift of tongues that are mentioned in Corinthians. One is a prayer language that is for our edification, and one is a gift that is used to edify the body of Christ. Everyone in the upper room spoke in tongues when they were filled, and so did the people in the other instances I mentioned in Acts. That is why I do not agree with you on this.
Even so, I have never demanded everyone agree on such things, and still do not. Most of the issues that divide the church are not worth striving over. They are based on a misunderstanding of scripture. That is going to happen. I didn't intend to bring this back up until another thread was started on the same subject, and I didn't feel the need to re-do the whole thing when my position hadn't changed. I figured it was easier to just bump this thread back up again. People are not really behind the strife anyway, demonic forces are. They stir people up to fight. It is certainly not showing the fruit of the Spirit at work in our lives when we fight over doctrine. Discussing is one thing, fighting is another.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. Galatians 5:22-26
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