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Post by frienduff on Sept 1, 2018 18:07:30 GMT -5
I hope I’m wrong. That’s all I can say. The thing is you might be . IF you worried about something with sister lights . then email her n private for you and her to see and start asking questions . Its better we do this and clear things up . Maybe you see something or maybe its an assumption . the only way to know , is to talk to her in private . IN fact that advice is as good for me as it is for anyone . WE really should all be about the welfare of the other . and sister , the same spirit that reminds me to remind you , IS REMINDING ME of this thing EVEN NOW . so I think you two should start over in private and discuss this . IF any of you all have any misunderstandings about things I say , I got no problem with you just saying it . IN fact I want you too , due to we don't need misunderstandings or assumption to separate us out from one another . REAL ERROR needs correcting , but even if what you tell me was error or misunderstanding on your part , STILL it needs to be told to me . I mean we got to look out for one another . we really do .
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 2, 2018 7:50:08 GMT -5
Doctrine is not a small thing. Is it treated as a small thing in the Scriptures? Then why should it be a minor thing to a Christian?
Obviously there are disputable matters of personal faith which can and should be overlooked for the sake of pursuing love and the unity of the Spirit (Romans 14). Where that breaks down is when people start making things that are clearly defined and taught in the Scriptures into disputable matters of personal faith, changing doctrine by their definitions, making rules out of things that are not rules and making not rules what are rules, attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the flesh or the devil or the works of the flesh and of the devil to the Holy Spirit, and reducing "essential doctrine" to belief in the Trinity and the atoning death and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ and faith in Him for justification and salvation. Believe in those things and nothing else is really important. That simply isn't so. The fundamentals are essential but they are not the only thing that is essential: Our whole Christian walk---even how we love other Christians and unsaved people---and the strength and effectiveness of the church, depends upon our understanding of and how we apply Christ's DOCTRINE. (And what we believe to be faith is shaped by what we believe to be correct and true, obviously. If it's contrary to or not a part of actual Christian doctrine (what the Scriptures actually teach about a particular thing), it's not actually faith, but our own belief. God makes allowances for ignorance with good intentions (Romans 14), and even works with it, but He does expect us to come to a better and better understanding of His will through the understanding of His word and the honest pursuit of that understanding for that purpose. And the perfection of understanding should be our goal as Christians, not being content with error or ignorance.)
God gave us the doctrine of the faith as He wanted us to practice that faith (I am referring to the Christian faith). We're not free to add or take away from or alter that doctrine in any way, to change it into something other than what it is, for any reason. Our desire as Christians should be to understand the doctrine we have been given and to apply it as correctly as we can, not to mold it to suit our church traditions or personal desires. I don't believe that this is the attitude or desire of the majority of Christians. I wish that it was, but I don't at all believe that it is. (The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked; and that sinful nature is no better in a Christian than it is in an unregenerate person; we just have the choice and the power to overcome its attitudes and desires.) Whether it is or isn't with any of you personally, I have my suspicions, but that is really between you and Jesus Christ---to make sure that the former is your attitude and desire and not the latter---as I explained and admonished you in the OP.
You cannot separate correct doctrine from sin. If people are defining things differently than the Bible defines them, they are changing its doctrine, and doing so allows for, and even encourages, sin---whether it's the sin of presumption or the sin of rebellion or the sin of blasphemy. If the Bible teaches that only men can be pastors, for example, and your pastor says women can too, that pastor is teaching rebellion against the Lord. And you would say, "Well, it's not essential doctrine". Oh really? Since when has teaching rebellion against the Lord been a small thing to God? Or did God just put things in the Bible but doesn't really care whether we correctly understand and apply them, so long as we believe in the atoning death and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ and His deity and the Trinity and salvation by grace through faith in Christ and have "good intentions" in whatever we do? That kind of thinking is the reason why Christianity is the shipwreck and abomination it is today.
I'm sorry, but that is foolish thinking. Everything that comprises the faith of Christianity is important. God gave it to us as He wanted it to be, and it glorifies Him most and is most effective according to His purposes when it is understood, taught, and lived correctly. For which reason it should be the pursuit and desire of all Christians, not to maintain some religious status quo that has become commonly acceptable, either in a particular denomination or in Christianity in general, but to know what the Scriptures actually teach about all things and to apply and teach that truth and that truth only. That is what God wants and what pleases Him. And if that's what any Christian cares about first and foremost, that is what he or she will pursue the knowledge of, without any exceptions. (Exceptions to this are never for God; they are always for self and are always unrighteous.)
You can think I'm a Pharisee if you want, but I sincerely hope you'll thank me on the day of Judgment even if you hate me now. Only good and wealth can come from taking the advice and heeding the warning in the OP, and only harm and loss can come from doing otherwise.
Does God want the bare bones of His doctrine kept, and we all "flesh it out" according to what we think is right and have a good feeling about? Or does He want us to be careful to understand and practice everything that we were given to the best of our ability in order to do what is truly pleasing and honoring to Him to the fullest degree?
Necessarily, as no one has perfect understanding of the word, there will be some error in belief and practice; but error should not be considered acceptable, but rather it should be avoided at all cost and eagerly corrected---seen as something to be continually improved, not something to be ignored, or protected or defended.
I get the feeling that laziness and carelessness in this way (doctrinal accuracy and correctness of practice according to the same) are being encouraged, at least by suggestion, in the name of "faith", or for the sake of peace, love and unity, and this should not be so. That's an insult to God. If you think He doesn't care about doctrine and practice so long as your intentions are good, you're wrong; and He knows the difference between Christians who don't know any better but are sincere and Christians who could and should know better but are doing what their church teaches anyway, against and beyond the word of God. That's presumption and rebellion, and there's nothing innocent or pleasing to God about that, no matter how enthusiastic or religious it is or what it involves.
Doctrine is a big deal. If we don't understand what the Bible teaches about a particular thing, we should at least make it our ambition to understand it the best we can---sincerely---not to try to support some preconceived notion about it, or what a particular denomination teaches. The more correct doctrine you understand and apply, the more effective and fruitful a Christian you will be. That's just a fact. You can't do the perfect and pleasing will of God according to a lie or a misunderstanding, even though God is very patient and merciful with His saints as they grow in understanding---provided they're sincere.
It's the heart that concerns me most, in all things. Behaviors are only symptoms of the heart attitude. You can't go wrong following the advice and warning in the OP, and I seriously question the heart attitude of anyone who wants to do otherwise or thinks that doing otherwise is acceptable.
What do the Scriptures say? And what do they mean? Whatever it is---spiritual gifts, worship, marriage, non-violence, participation in politics---that should be what every Christian seeks to know and to understand with his or her whole heart, not to please him or herself or other Christians, but to please God and to live according to His actual and perfect will in every way. He knows who genuinely desires to do this and who does not. He judges our choices and our actions and the motives of our hearts, not just what we say. We are all going to stand INDIVIDUALLY before the throne of Jesus Christ to give an account to Him for what we did with what we had in the way of understanding from His word, and well as for understanding that we could have had and should have had but chose not to pursue, either because we had other priorities, or because we secretly didn't really want to know the truth of His word about a particular thing.
If pleasing God and honoring Him with your life in every way, and doing the will of Jesus Christ as perfectly as possible is really anyone's goal, he or she will seek that out by the careful and honest study of His word, with prayer and a sincere heart---with nothing off limits---and God will give him or her increasing understanding about all things---as he or she faithfully applies what he or she already knows. (If that is not really a person's desire, God knows it, and will respond accordingly.)
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 2, 2018 8:27:52 GMT -5
Just to make sure we all understand.
You are disappointed that all of us (Butero, Cletus, Letters, Abby, and I) practice speaking in tongues in an unknown spiritual language. Not that we bark like dogs or act foolishly, which no one in this group has defended, but simply because we support the idea of speaking in a mysterious heavenly language when we speak in tongues. You believe this -- this thing in itself -- is a deception from our flesh and/or demons. Since you tried to talk us out of it, and we disagree with you, you now strongly suspect that we have rebelled against clear doctrine.
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 2, 2018 8:47:36 GMT -5
I don’t see where anyone here is hating you sister, or asking you to leave. What I am saying myself, and I believe the others agree, is that we wish we could put the speaking in tongues thing behind us and just go back to being friends.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 2, 2018 9:01:27 GMT -5
You are disappointed that all of us (Butero, Cletus, Letters, Abby, and I) practice speaking in tongues in an unknown spiritual language. I do not practice speaking in tongues. What I disagree with is the idea that all must speak in tongues or they are not Christ's.
Nothing against those who speak in tongues. I agree it is biblical, but I disagree that all must be speaking. All can speak?! True, if they can believe...
"Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves." - Romans 14:22I don’t see where anyone here is hating you sister, or asking you to leave. What I am saying myself, and I believe the others agree, is that we wish we could put the speaking in tongues thing behind us and just go back to being friends. I agree. It is like saying people like me is not of Christ just because I have never spoken with tongues.
Is that the correct way of discerning if someone is Christ's or not?! Judge for yourself.
"And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." - Galatians 5:24
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." - Romans 8:9
"I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." - Galatians 5:16
"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7
"But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." - John 3:21
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24
"Therefore by their fruits you will know them." - Matthew 7:20
"...for whatever is not from faith is sin." - Romans 14:23
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 2, 2018 9:48:25 GMT -5
What I disagree with is the idea that all must speak in tongues or they are not Christ's. I think there's misunderstanding here. Tongues is not required for salvation.
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2018 9:58:12 GMT -5
You are disappointed that all of us (Butero, Cletus, Letters, Abby, and I) practice speaking in tongues in an unknown spiritual language. I do not practice speaking in tongues. What I disagree with is the idea that all must speak in tongues or they are not Christ's.
Nothing against those who speak in tongues. I agree it is biblical, but I disagree that all must be speaking. All can speak?! True, if they can believe...
"Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves." - Romans 14:22I don’t see where anyone here is hating you sister, or asking you to leave. What I am saying myself, and I believe the others agree, is that we wish we could put the speaking in tongues thing behind us and just go back to being friends. I agree. It is like saying people like me is not of Christ just because I have never spoken with tongues.
Is that the correct way of discerning if someone is Christ's or not?! Judge for yourself.
"And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." - Galatians 5:24
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." - Romans 8:9
"I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." - Galatians 5:16
"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7
"But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." - John 3:21
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24
"Therefore by their fruits you will know them." - Matthew 7:20
"...for whatever is not from faith is sin." - Romans 14:23 I don't know of a single person here that believes that if you don't speak in tongues, you are not saved. I do believe that the initial evidence of receiving the baptism in the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues, but I believe that you can be a born again Christian and never have experienced this. I have no reason whatsoever to look at you as anything other than a brother in Christ, whether you speak in tongues or not, but I do believe that if you desire to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and continue to seek the Lord, in his time, you will be given a heavenly prayer language. We clearly have a different doctrinal understanding on this matter, but I do believe you are a Christian.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 2, 2018 10:13:36 GMT -5
I think there's misunderstanding here. Tongues is not required for salvation. It is OK if you never believed in that. I did not say you believe that.
But it is a common misconception that I always like to point out.
To make things clear.I don't know of a single person here that believes that if you don't speak in tongues, you are not saved.
It is OK if you never believed in that. I did not say you believe that.
But it is a common misconception that I always like to point out.
To make things clear.I do believe that the initial evidence of receiving the baptism in the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues, but I believe that you can be a born again Christian and never have experienced this. Please, when you say this is the same as saying: If you do not speak in tongues you are not Christ's.
It is just a different way of doing it. And I understand many do not know this.
Having not been baptized in the Holy Spirit, you are not His. You are in the valley of decision and unable to love Him in truth.
Thankfully, such comments do not shaken my faith anymore as I have said the Lord confirmed to me that I am baptized in His Spirit.
Again, tongues are just one of the signs... If the Spirit gives you something to speak, you will create the desire to speak and you will speak it and you will know what to speak.
Now, if the Spirit gives you nothing to speak then how will you speak?! You cannot just invent something and start saying.
That is how speaking in tongues is just a spiritual sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
However, such sign must be accompanied by faith that you indeed received Him.
Faith is assurance, is perfect confidence only God is able to give. As it comes from the Truth.
I just want to clear all doubts.
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2018 10:21:08 GMT -5
Just to make sure we all understand. You are disappointed that all of us (Butero, Cletus, Letters, Abby, and I) practice speaking in tongues in an unknown spiritual language. Not that we bark like dogs or act foolishly, which no one in this group has defended, but simply because we support the idea of speaking in a mysterious heavenly language when we speak in tongues. You believe this -- this thing in itself -- is a deception from our flesh and/or demons. Since you tried to talk us out of it, and we disagree with you, you now strongly suspect that we have rebelled against clear doctrine. I am seeing a lot of things she is saying where there are disagreements. We all think for ourselves, and just because one person comes to a conclusion about something, that doesn't mean they are 100 percent correct. Job and his friends thought they knew all about how God did things and thinks about things, and they were all wrong to one degree or another. Here are a few areas of contention.
1. Speaking in tongues and a prayer language verses the gift of tongues. 2. Self defense and defending our family from an attacker. 3. Female Pastors 4. What it means to defend the Biblical canon
All of these things have come up. Then there is a question over what motivates our beliefs. Are we standing on what we are because the Bible says it, or are we intentionally holding to things we must know on the inside are false, to please others or because we are defending a denominational teaching or experience? Nobody can rightly judge that but God. How can anyone know what my motives are but me and the Lord? It is possible I don't believe things the way tlsitd does in some areas and I think she should know better. I clearly think she is wrong in defending the removal of portions of the Biblical text in modern English translations, and this must be because she places love of her translation above truth. That is my judgment of her, but how can I really know that for sure? Only God knows. Turn that around. She feels I clearly know that certain things I am defending are wrong, but I am only doing it for the sake of others I like. That is her judgment of me, but how can she know that for sure? Only God knows. We can believe what we will, but we are not in a position to really know.
I started a thread defending tongues as a prayer language and backed it up with scripture. I am not just defending it based on a denomination or past experience. I do believe it is okay to defend ourselves or our family with a sword, a gun or whatever force is necessary. Jesus was speaking of not going around seeking revenge, and people are taking that to oppose military action and self defense. Female Pastors are not forbidden across the board. I used to think they were, but they are not, but there are limitations. Women cannot qualify as a bishop, and in today's church structure, which is not the Biblical order, the job description of the Pastor is that of the bishop. They do not have to be one and the same. If you have bishops who oversee the church who are Biblically qualified, and the female Pastor is only tending to preaching and prayer, the spiritual matters, she can hold that office. A man must be overseeing the church itself, and he must meet the other qualifications for bishop as well. You also have churches where there is more than one Pastor, and you will have a male who is the Senior Pastor. I don't take qualifications lightly, but we need to follow them properly. Where are the qualifications listed for Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Teacher and Evangelist, other than being God called and gifted? There are none listed. The qualifications mentioned are for Bishops, Deacons and Elders, and the problems occur when the Pastor and Bishop are mixed up or one and the same. A Pastor can be the Bishop too, but he must be qualified for Bishop to hold both offices.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 2, 2018 10:30:20 GMT -5
Please, when you say this is the same as saying: If you do not speak in tongues you are not Christ's. It is just a different way of doing it. And I understand many do not know this. Indwelling of the Holy Spirit brings salvation. He comes to live inside of you and to make you born again. As you grow in your Christian life, you begin to operate in spiritual gifts. That's all we're saying.
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2018 10:30:54 GMT -5
You are disappointed that all of us (Butero, Cletus, Letters, Abby, and I) practice speaking in tongues in an unknown spiritual language. I do not practice speaking in tongues. What I disagree with is the idea that all must speak in tongues or they are not Christ's.
Nothing against those who speak in tongues. I agree it is biblical, but I disagree that all must be speaking. All can speak?! True, if they can believe...
"Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves." - Romans 14:22I don’t see where anyone here is hating you sister, or asking you to leave. What I am saying myself, and I believe the others agree, is that we wish we could put the speaking in tongues thing behind us and just go back to being friends. I agree. It is like saying people like me is not of Christ just because I have never spoken with tongues.
Is that the correct way of discerning if someone is Christ's or not?! Judge for yourself.
"And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." - Galatians 5:24
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." - Romans 8:9
"I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." - Galatians 5:16
"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7
"But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." - John 3:21
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24
"Therefore by their fruits you will know them." - Matthew 7:20
"...for whatever is not from faith is sin." - Romans 14:23 If I believed that one must experience the baptism of the Holy Ghost as you do to be saved, you are correct. I would be saying you are not saved, but I don't believe that. I believe they are two separate experiences. You can get saved and really be saved, but not experience the baptism in the Holy spirit for months or years later or never and still make it to heaven. I do understand your position.
I also understand what you are saying about different signs, but I have known good Baptist folks that reject the gifts of the Spirit, but were just born again who had a genuine change in their life after getting saved. They didn't experience the baptism in the Holy Ghost, but the change occurred because they were born again. Another point. Speaking in tongues doesn't guarantee any eternal inheritance in God's Kingdom. There are many who will live after the flesh after being filled, and some do only speak things out of their head. Still, I am in no position to judge whether someone's prayer language is real.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 2, 2018 10:43:03 GMT -5
I believe they are two separate experiences. You can get saved and really be saved, but not experience the baptism in the Holy spirit for months or years later or never and still make it to heaven. I do understand your position. Indwelling of the Holy Spirit brings salvation. He comes to live inside of you and to make you born again. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved..." - Mark 16:16
"Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”" - Acts 19:4
"I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." - Mark 1:8
"But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him." - Luke 7:30
"...but he who does not believe will be condemned." - Mark 16:16
"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." - John 3:19
Conclusion: All who believe will be baptized.
"...unless you believed in vain." - 1 Corinthians 15:2
"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ..." - Philippians 1:6
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man's all." - Ecclesiastes 12:13
God bless you all in Jesus' name!
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 2, 2018 10:46:14 GMT -5
Just to make sure we all understand. You are disappointed that all of us (Butero, Cletus, Letters, Abby, and I) practice speaking in tongues in an unknown spiritual language. Not that we bark like dogs or act foolishly, which no one in this group has defended, but simply because we support the idea of speaking in a mysterious heavenly language when we speak in tongues. You believe this -- this thing in itself -- is a deception from our flesh and/or demons. Since you tried to talk us out of it, and we disagree with you, you now strongly suspect that we have rebelled against clear doctrine. As far as women speaking in the churches goes (which includes speaking in tongues---this is addressed in that very same chapter that addresses the purpose and appropriate use of spiritual gifts by the brothers in the church assembly), yes, that would be teaching rebellion against a clear command of the Lord.
Glossolalia is hardly the only thing that what the OP addresses applies to. It's the heart attitude underlying it that is the real problem that needs to be examined, as is the case with all things that contradict or are not actually supported by Scripture, which Christians teach and persist in doing despite this. (And what is and what is not supported by Scripture differs from person to person, even though in reality the truth is objective. Understanding of objective truth is the only thing that differs from Christian to Christian, not the Scriptural truth itself.) I don't have anything more to say about that underlying reason than I've said already in my previous posts on this thread. And yes, there is a serious problem with redefining what the Scriptures define and explain and applying Scripture to things that it doesn't actually apply to, whether it be glossolalia or anything else.
Error in one major thing (such as permitting women to serve as pastors or to speak in the church assemblies, or insisting on Christians keeping the law of Moses) is seldom alone. That is my observation with Christians. And it goes back to the heart of the person, and what he or she is doing in his or her walk with Jesus Christ, which God knows and not I. I speak in general terms about these things for that reason. God is the one who knows what is really going on with each person, and it's up to the person and Him to correct any and all errors of belief or practice, with honesty on the part of the individual.
What I know about God is that He is very gracious toward those who are humble and honest, and faithful in doing what they understand, even if some of their practices are crooked; He straightens them out eventually. But when a person has an insincere heart, and is, for example, more loyal to a denomination's traditions or teachings, or to a pastor or teacher, than to the teachings of Scripture as interpreted by the Scriptures themselves and the Spirit of Jesus Christ, and they have doubts about what they are doing or teaching, or even know that it's not supported by Scripture, and they keep on doing it anyway (in which case it is sin), God does not deal favorably with them. A Christian with that kind of attitude will be confused and will stay confused about many things, led astray in this way and that.
I do not wish this for any Christian, either for his or her own sake, or for the Lord's sake, but that they might live pleasing to Him and be fruitful and effective in Him to the greatest degree. But that is not anything I can do anything about, except to admonish them with counsel and warning like that given in the OP so that they might get that result from God. If they don't want to do that, that's too bad for them, really. I hope the Lord gives them a change of heart.
How many pastors would change any of their teachings if they were shown the Scriptures that refute their teaching (some of the teachings of Calvinism for example), or would start teaching things that the New Testament teaches which have fallen out of favor with Christians in general? Far fewer than would try to defend them. And so it is with Christians in general. Why is that? Because they either already know it and don't care---because they've weighed the pros of continuing to do it and teach it against the cons, and have chosen to do what pleases them and other people rather than what pleases the Lord---or they don't know it and don't care that they don't know it because they think they are living by faith and that God isn't particular so long as a person's heart is in the right place. Presumption. Rebellion. Foolishness. All three of these reasons for doing things are condemned by the Scriptures; and none of them is "faith".
Defending doctrinal error, or being indifferent about it, is foolish, if not outright rebellious, and not God's desire. It harms oneself, it harms others, and it displeases and dishonors God. It leads to spiritual weakness, demonic attacks and deception, and sins of other kinds.
(Is God's grace too weak to help a man to overcome an addiction to pornography? No. Then why are so many pastors addicted to it? The heart is sick. All is not what it seems on the surface. God deals with each one of us according to what we're really doing with His word and why.)
Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
I do not know the hearts of others, but I know the sinful nature pretty well, and we all have it. It doesn't always express itself in obvious sins of the flesh; it can live and thrive very happily in religious practice, behind a smiling face, and in apparent zeal for God. But when you poke an attitude, a belief or a practice with the convicting truth of the Scriptures and of the Holy Spirit, and the person winces or flames up in anger or goes through contortions to get around it and away from it (like a serpent caught by the tail), you can be sure that whatever it is is no good. Things are not what they seem to be.
The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. If God's word makes you wince or have doubts about your practice or belief---any practice or belief---your practice or belief needs to be re-examined, honestly and carefully, against the Scriptures, and with an honest heart before God in prayer, with the confession of any known sins in your life if necessary. (Remember: Presumption. Rebellion. Foolishness.)
That goes for me as much as for anyone else. I test my own self this way, and I give the counsel that I apply to myself. (If I can say one thing about myself as a Christian, it's that I'm honest with God, and don't allow myself to be otherwise for any reason, because I know it's a snare, and also because I can't look Jesus in the face and lie to Him or tell Him no.)
I suggest reading my previous posts on this thread again.
I don't care how many Christians do or don't do a particular thing or believe this or that, no matter how much I may like them or love them. My concern is and always will be knowing what the Scriptures actually teach, and applying that truth, and that truth only, and as much of it as possible, to my walk with Jesus Christ in order to please Him.
(And why not support Christians writhing like snakes, laughing uncontrollably for hours, barking like dogs or running laps around the sanctuary in the name of the Holy Spirit? Who are you to judge what the Spirit may be doing? I'm sure someone could use Scripture to support it if they tried, and probably is.)
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2018 10:47:16 GMT -5
One other thing I want to add. How about not posting things with undertones. I try to look at the actual words that are spoken. I am not sitting here trying to read between the lines. I will often feel like this comment or that comment is directed at a disagreement towards me or another member of Narrow Way, but ultimately, I am looking at what a person is saying, and trying not to speculate on what they really mean as opposed to what they say. There are several things that were mentioned in this thread but were not addressed directly. Instead of writing one accusatory comment, it might be more useful to start a thread dealing with each subject one doesn't feel was already dealt with. Now, if the subject has already been addressed, and the problem is that you just don't see eye to eye, that is going to happen. But if you think you can add scripture to the discussion that might shed more light on things, that is more helpful than confusing rebukes where nobody is sure of the true intentions.
And to tlsitd, clearly nobody here that I know of hates you. I don't think anyone has done anything but be as nice and respectful as possible towards you, even while disagreeing. Nobody wants you to leave, that I am aware of. We have 27 members as of right now, and I don't want any of those members to leave. I have no reason to believe than any of them are unsaved or heretics or trolls. Nobody has done anything to cause me to look at them that way. Each of the 27 members, including you, makes up the body. We all have our roles to play. You have the freedom to share you opinions, as do others, but let's not beat up those we don't agree with. Use the freedom you have to share what you believe the Lord is showing you.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 2, 2018 10:55:27 GMT -5
To be completely honest, this is why it's best to avoid complicated doctrinal rebukes/exposes on the internet. Operational gifts were difficult enough for Paul to explain in his epistles. The fruit which has grown here in the past two weeks has been suspicion, confusion, discord, and a chill of nonfellowship.
I strongly believe we need to stop posting manifestos to rebuke fellow sheep over doctrinal differences, whether direct or implied.
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