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Post by John on Sept 2, 2018 10:59:49 GMT -5
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I have been willing to change my position on things when I clearly saw I was wrong. Here is a true story. I had always stood against female Pastors, even when it was in opposition to the teachings of fellow Pentecostals. I was at WCF in a heated debate with a woman whose username was Firehill. I stood against female Pastors, because they couldn't meet the Biblical qualifications of being the husband of one wife. During the debate, it was like a lightbulb went off and I noticed that the husband of one wife qualification was speaking of Bishops, not Pastors. The passage in Corinthians is clearly speaking of women not being disruptive by asking their husbands questions during the church service. That is what it says. Once I saw the true meaning, I had to change my position. Yes, women may testify, sing, teach or preach and pray in tongues in church. The scripture about a woman not teaching men or usurping authority over the man is speaking of husbands and wives. The husband is the spiritual head of the home. These are all things we could discuss in a separate thread if anyone is interested, but nobody should assume that I am ignoring the Bible or holding to traditions in a church I was part of. I believe correct doctrine is important.
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2018 11:03:37 GMT -5
To be completely honest, this is why it's best to avoid complicated doctrinal rebukes/exposes on the internet. Operational gifts were difficult enough for Paul to explain in his epistles. The fruit which has grown here in the past two weeks has been suspicion, confusion, discord, and a chill of nonfellowship. I strongly believe we need to stop posting manifestos to rebuke fellow sheep over doctrinal differences, whether direct or implied. A-men to that. I couldn't agree more. I am not a mind reader, and don't know what is motivating others when they post. I don't know how they came to their conclusions.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 2, 2018 11:07:24 GMT -5
Is God's grace too weak to help a man to overcome an addiction to pornography? No. Then why are so many pastors addicted to it?
"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him." - 1 John 3:6
"Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 8:36I don't care how many Christians do or don't do a particular thing or believe this or that, no matter how much I may like them or love them. My concern is and always will be knowing what the Scriptures actually teach, and applying that truth, and that truth only, and as much of it as possible, to my walk with Jesus Christ in order to please Him.
As far as women speaking in the churches goes (which includes speaking in tongues---this is addressed in that very same chapter that addresses the purpose and appropriate use of spiritual gifts by the brothers in the church assembly), yes, that would be teaching rebellion against a clear command of the Lord.
I suggest you be more careful and pay attention to what truth is. And truth always is profitable.
"...For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith..." - Matthew 23:23
"For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." - Hosea 6:6
"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" - Galatians 3:3
"For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor..." - 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4
"...that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." - Romans 12:2
And about things being done in churches... Well, all I can say is that they do their best as doing for the Lord and not to men.
"And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men..." - Colossians 3:23
"Let all things be done decently and in order." - 1 Corinthians 14:40
Again, we are under a new covenant, we walk by faith.
What is acceptable worship according to my faith may not be the same as yours, or someone else's.
"...Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?" - John 8:10
"...Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more." - John 8:11
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Post by Abby-Joy on Sept 2, 2018 11:29:23 GMT -5
Clearly, speaking in unknown tongues or tongues of angels is not the same as barking like a dog... and nowhere in the Bible to you see an example of someone becoming like an animal except when Nebuchadnezzar was transformed to living like an ox in the wild, his hair grew till it looked like feathers, and his claws like claws of a bird... all because he refused to acknowledge God (pride). So becoming like an animal is not something that is a good thing from God. Baptism in Holy Spirit is characterized with speaking in tongues.... nothing else is described as evidence.
Also, as I wrote before... there were women present at the day of Pentecost, and they did speak in tongues and prophesy in the assembly... otherwise, Peter wouldn't have had to explain in this manner to those who were there mocking and doubting:
Acts 2:14-18 14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jeru 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Women have flesh ("all flesh") ... "sons" are male and "daughters" are female. (Right?!) As per vs 18, "handmaidens" are also female... and it clearly states that they will prophesy. All of the things written are things that began at the day of Pentecost.
These women were speaking in tongues and prophesying in the midst of a gathering where men were present.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 2, 2018 13:09:06 GMT -5
The problem is some still have CHURCH taught stuff they aint let go of yet . I seen that over the past few weeks . I do praise the LORD for HIS grace that put me ONLY in that bible . Their is nothing that cant be worked out and as of yet I don't see anything that is too dangerous . But the best idea FORGET what you think you learned in Church and start over . We can read the scrips for ourselves . I can disprove so much but the problem is , people learned stuff from pastors and aint willing to let go of that . AN example . WE all know the catholic religion is false . BUT TRY TELLING that to a catholic who is dug in . ONE would think it would be the easiest thing . By just saying READ the bible . BUT ITS Not so simple IS IT . I can disprove war and taking life . The debate on tongues is that some have learned from others that this MEANS speaking JUST in another language . WELL, if that is the case , the any bilingual is speaking in tongues . WHAT. ITS a language that often even the one speaking DOES NOT UNDERSTAND even THOUGH their soul gets edified . But it is a language that can sound to the hearer as their own language . THIER were folks their who all spoke different languages , YET HEARD that HEAVENLY LANGUAGE in their OWN native tongue . That cannot be explained away . An example lets say I was speaking in tongues and a china man , a Russian , a german all showed up . THEY WOULD HEAR IT in their own language . THAT IS RIGHT , because tongues is not of men , ITS OF GOD and it can reach and sound out in any language and yet those who are not elect , WILL HEAR ONLY BABBLING , its why they THOUGHT they were DRUNK . those who were not the elect , were THINKING what is this babble sound . BUT EVERY OTHER MAN who was of the elect was hearing it in their own language . To fight over this is truly sad . Now if one is barking like a dog , YEAH , SINCE WHEN does the HOLY SPIRIT behave AS A ANIMAL . oh it may cuase a DONKEY to be able to speak , BUT IT DONT SPEAK IN DONKEY .
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Post by frienduff on Sept 2, 2018 13:16:36 GMT -5
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I have been willing to change my position on things when I clearly saw I was wrong. Here is a true story. I had always stood against female Pastors, even when it was in opposition to the teachings of fellow Pentecostals. I was at WCF in a heated debate with a woman whose username was Firehill. I stood against female Pastors, because they couldn't meet the Biblical qualifications of being the husband of one wife. During the debate, it was like a lightbulb went off and I noticed that the husband of one wife qualification was speaking of Bishops, not Pastors. The passage in Corinthians is clearly speaking of women not being disruptive by asking their husbands questions during the church service. That is what it says. Once I saw the true meaning, I had to change my position. Yes, women may testify, sing, teach or preach and pray in tongues in church. The scripture about a woman not teaching men or usurping authority over the man is speaking of husbands and wives. The husband is the spiritual head of the home. These are all things we could discuss in a separate thread if anyone is interested, but nobody should assume that I am ignoring the Bible or holding to traditions in a church I was part of. I believe correct doctrine is important.
BUTERO pastors are in an position that ursurps authority . NO women cant be . I know the bible uses the words bishops and deacons . WHAT DO You think that is . You should never have let that one slip . Just because one uses the word pastor , that duty is the same . ABLE TO TEACH . pastors do that . Any woman can prophesy , but not be a pastor . Butoer we can let things like this slip . Was paul making a mistake when he said WHY . this is depressing , I actually thought you knew this . Butero lets not go down the wrong road for sake of fellowship . Its not hard to jus say they cant be pastors . in fact where in most churches do you even hear the words bishop or deacon , BESIDES catholic and a few . The BISHOP , that is a pastor . Fact . LOOK at their duty . we just use the word pastor in place of bishop . the deacon would be one like associate pastors . of course we made it into those who pass around the plate . WHICH of course the deacon does .
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Post by frienduff on Sept 2, 2018 13:24:30 GMT -5
a pastor IS a bishop . ever wonder why paul never said a thing about appointing women to any position like that . One would think he would have said something instead of just saying MEN . I mean women were already in the church . I never heard words like timothy appoint men and women . He said men . But I did hear him say WHY women are not to lead teach or usurp authority over the man . A PASTOR has authority over his flock . women cant do that . I am out , this is so depressing .
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 2, 2018 13:28:24 GMT -5
frienduff tlsitd PG4Him John Abby-Joy If you speak in tongues or not, or if you praise God all day, or if you jump or not.
I am not interested in this. Doing that will not send you to hell, but denying the Holy Spirit will.
"But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless." - Titus 3:9
If you could just forget all this and focus on Christ alone. This is what I believe what really matters.
No one will be justified by deeds of the law, or if they were perfect in all their ways.
The only way to be justified is through His grace, by faith in Christ.
"But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." - 2 Peter 1:8
Then, if we agree to the essential matters of the faith and the truth of the gospel.
And I am sure this is the case, then why not forget the details and focus on what really matters?!
"By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." - John 13:35
I believe we all must know how to separate what is truth and what is vanity. And truth and love is what really matters.
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." - Galatians 5:6
God bless you all in Jesus' name!
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 2, 2018 14:18:00 GMT -5
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I have been willing to change my position on things when I clearly saw I was wrong. Here is a true story. I had always stood against female Pastors, even when it was in opposition to the teachings of fellow Pentecostals. I was at WCF in a heated debate with a woman whose username was Firehill. I stood against female Pastors, because they couldn't meet the Biblical qualifications of being the husband of one wife. During the debate, it was like a lightbulb went off and I noticed that the husband of one wife qualification was speaking of Bishops, not Pastors. The passage in Corinthians is clearly speaking of women not being disruptive by asking their husbands questions during the church service. That is what it says. Once I saw the true meaning, I had to change my position. Yes, women may testify, sing, teach or preach and pray in tongues in church. The scripture about a woman not teaching men or usurping authority over the man is speaking of husbands and wives. The husband is the spiritual head of the home. These are all things we could discuss in a separate thread if anyone is interested, but nobody should assume that I am ignoring the Bible or holding to traditions in a church I was part of. I believe correct doctrine is important.
Bishops and pastors are the same office, brother John. Unfortunately, you've been deceived in this matter. And based on the rest of your post, I would not participate in a thread on the other matter either. One, because I believe it would be going beyond the Lord's will for me both as a woman and according to my calling (which debating doctrine is not, even though it is oftentimes a consequence of doing the other), and two, because it wouldn't likely do any good and would be a waste of my time and energy.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 2, 2018 14:58:57 GMT -5
One other thing I want to add. How about not posting things with undertones. I try to look at the actual words that are spoken. I am not sitting here trying to read between the lines. I will often feel like this comment or that comment is directed at a disagreement towards me or another member of Narrow Way, but ultimately, I am looking at what a person is saying, and trying not to speculate on what they really mean as opposed to what they say. There are several things that were mentioned in this thread but were not addressed directly. Instead of writing one accusatory comment, it might be more useful to start a thread dealing with each subject one doesn't feel was already dealt with. Now, if the subject has already been addressed, and the problem is that you just don't see eye to eye, that is going to happen. But if you think you can add scripture to the discussion that might shed more light on things, that is more helpful than confusing rebukes where nobody is sure of the true intentions.
And to tlsitd, clearly nobody here that I know of hates you. I don't think anyone has done anything but be as nice and respectful as possible towards you, even while disagreeing. Nobody wants you to leave, that I am aware of. We have 27 members as of right now, and I don't want any of those members to leave. I have no reason to believe than any of them are unsaved or heretics or trolls. Nobody has done anything to cause me to look at them that way. Each of the 27 members, including you, makes up the body. We all have our roles to play. You have the freedom to share you opinions, as do others, but let's not beat up those we don't agree with. Use the freedom you have to share what you believe the Lord is showing you.
As far as posting things with undertones is concerned, if I mention something indirectly it is because I intend to do so. If I believe that the Lord would have me to address a particular person about a particular thing, I will do so, either publicly or privately. I will sometimes address things generally because what I am addressing covers many things, not just one thing, and rather than addressing one thing, which may merely be a symptom of the underlying and greater problem, I prefer to address whatever covers the most subjects, according to the root cause of the problem, rather than addressing every potential manifestation of the illness. Then everyone can consider what I say for themselves and apply it to whatever it is that it may apply to, instead of thinking that I am only addressing one thing that the admonition applies to, or am only addressing one person. I don't know to whom all of what I post may apply and in what way, although sometimes I have certain people in mind when I post things; I am not only addressing that person, but anyone to whom what I post applies, whether they are members here or a certain kind of people that guests and members here know and associate with. (Some of the members here, yourself included, already know that I speak to individuals directly in private sometimes as well.) So how I post whatever I post on the forum is not to be vague, but rather to speak appropriately as the Holy Spirit counsels me to do. I follow His lead to the best of my discernment, and hope that He uses what I post to the benefit of the maximum number of people, as it may apply. And while I appreciate your gracious words, brother, I am not here to be liked, and do not care whether you or anyone here likes me. I do not post what I post to be liked, or to be mean, or to be noticed. (God is witness.) Whether I continue to post here or not is up to the leading of the Lord, as is what I post. I would be content not to post anything more here, honestly, but that is up to Jesus Christ, not me.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 2, 2018 16:52:00 GMT -5
The sad thing is , I saw this coming the other day and said nothing . I spoke up but too little too late . But more just keeps coming out . Worldiness is creeping in . My soul is absolutely sad . I need to fast and pray and decide what to do .
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2018 17:33:09 GMT -5
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I have been willing to change my position on things when I clearly saw I was wrong. Here is a true story. I had always stood against female Pastors, even when it was in opposition to the teachings of fellow Pentecostals. I was at WCF in a heated debate with a woman whose username was Firehill. I stood against female Pastors, because they couldn't meet the Biblical qualifications of being the husband of one wife. During the debate, it was like a lightbulb went off and I noticed that the husband of one wife qualification was speaking of Bishops, not Pastors. The passage in Corinthians is clearly speaking of women not being disruptive by asking their husbands questions during the church service. That is what it says. Once I saw the true meaning, I had to change my position. Yes, women may testify, sing, teach or preach and pray in tongues in church. The scripture about a woman not teaching men or usurping authority over the man is speaking of husbands and wives. The husband is the spiritual head of the home. These are all things we could discuss in a separate thread if anyone is interested, but nobody should assume that I am ignoring the Bible or holding to traditions in a church I was part of. I believe correct doctrine is important.
BUTERO pastors are in an position that ursurps authority . NO women cant be . I know the bible uses the words bishops and deacons . WHAT DO You think that is . You should never have let that one slip . Just because one uses the word pastor , that duty is the same . ABLE TO TEACH . pastors do that . Any woman can prophesy , but not be a pastor . Butoer we can let things like this slip . Was paul making a mistake when he said WHY . this is depressing , I actually thought you knew this . Butero lets not go down the wrong road for sake of fellowship . Its not hard to jus say they cant be pastors . in fact where in most churches do you even hear the words bishop or deacon , BESIDES catholic and a few . The BISHOP , that is a pastor . Fact . LOOK at their duty . we just use the word pastor in place of bishop . the deacon would be one like associate pastors . of course we made it into those who pass around the plate . WHICH of course the deacon does .
The bishop is not just another word for Pastor. That is something people have claimed, but there is no Biblical basis for it. In the book of Acts, the disciples were having a problem with being distracted with dealing with the carnal matters of the church, like seeing that the widows were taken care of. Bishop, Deacon and Elder are not divine callings from God. They are offices that were created by the early church to act as overseers. God gave his seal of approval to these offices in his Word, and guidelines were created, but they are not ministry gifts. I can't seek to be a Pastor. I am called to be one or I am not. I can desire the office of a Bishop or Deacon, and if the church decides I am qualified and the right person to serve in that office, I can be appointed to it. The Deacon is no an Associate Pastor.
You stated we should unlearn things if they are not Biblical. You need to reconsider this, or at the least, use the Bible to back it up. Show where the Pastor is the same as Bishop and the Associate Pastor is the same as a Deacon. There isn't even a Biblical office of Associate Pastor. I have looked into this, and have written a book that goes into showing that the church is not following the original prescribed order. I hope to have it available soon.
As for showing that Christians cannot serve in the military or defend themselves, I can prove they can. I take the Bible as a whole and can prove that the commandment not to kill is in the same law of Moses that demands the death penalty for murderers and in the same Bible where God sends people into military service. I am happy to defend this in a different thread if someone wants to make debate that topic. I know a lot about the Bible because I have studied it all my Christian life.
One way I know that the scriptures about the woman not teaching a man apply to husbands and wives is because the woman is not under the authority of every man, only her husband. My wife is not under the authority of anyone but me and the Lord. The commandment was given because of Adam and Eve and the fact Adam chose to obey his wife rather than God and she was the one deceived by the serpent, not Adam.
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2018 17:45:42 GMT -5
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I have been willing to change my position on things when I clearly saw I was wrong. Here is a true story. I had always stood against female Pastors, even when it was in opposition to the teachings of fellow Pentecostals. I was at WCF in a heated debate with a woman whose username was Firehill. I stood against female Pastors, because they couldn't meet the Biblical qualifications of being the husband of one wife. During the debate, it was like a lightbulb went off and I noticed that the husband of one wife qualification was speaking of Bishops, not Pastors. The passage in Corinthians is clearly speaking of women not being disruptive by asking their husbands questions during the church service. That is what it says. Once I saw the true meaning, I had to change my position. Yes, women may testify, sing, teach or preach and pray in tongues in church. The scripture about a woman not teaching men or usurping authority over the man is speaking of husbands and wives. The husband is the spiritual head of the home. These are all things we could discuss in a separate thread if anyone is interested, but nobody should assume that I am ignoring the Bible or holding to traditions in a church I was part of. I believe correct doctrine is important.
Bishops and pastors are the same office, brother John. Unfortunately, you've been deceived in this matter. And based on the rest of your post, I would not participate in a thread on the other matter either. One, because I believe it would be going beyond the Lord's will for me both as a woman and according to my calling (which debating doctrine is not, even though it is oftentimes a consequence of doing the other), and two, because it wouldn't likely do any good and would be a waste of my time and energy. Then why does the Bible give them different titles? There isn't one place in the Bible where it says the Pastor is the same office as the Bishop. What of the Apostle? An Apostle is basically a missionary. If you are so sure of yourself, use scripture to prove it. I would say the same thing to Frienduff. Start a thread and actually use scripture to show where God says the Bishop is the same office as the Pastor. In today's church, the Pastor often takes on the role of the bishop, and if they are doing that, he must meet the qualifications for Bishop, but if the church had a Bishop and it was a separate office, those qualifications wouldn't apply to the Pastor. I am not the one that is deceived here. What a woman cannot do is run the church, but as far as that goes, a lot of men can't meet other qualifications for that office. And I want to put down one other false charge, because this has been mentioned more than once, and there is not one bit of truth to it. I am not taking any positions to get along. I have never done that. I am concerned only with the truth, and what the Bible actually teaches.
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2018 17:57:16 GMT -5
The sad thing is , I saw this coming the other day and said nothing . I spoke up but too little too late . But more just keeps coming out . Worldiness is creeping in . My soul is absolutely sad . I need to fast and pray and decide what to do . This isn't about worldliness creeping in. You have 27 different people here with 27 different opinions on a whole host of issues. Unless we had all filled out some kind of questionnaire before we came here, we wouldn't have known where each person stood. I didn't know where you stood on every possible issue, just like I didn't know where anyone else stood. My position on women Pastors has been established for years. Nobody asked. My position on military action and voting has been established for years. Nobody asked. I would imagine that if you had a thousand page questionnaire with every possible doctrinal issue you could think of and asked us to all fill it out, we would all differ greatly. It is not about worldliness and compromise. It is about not agreeing. If we must all agree on the same things across the board, you may as well resolve yourself to being a church unto yourself.
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Post by Abby-Joy on Sept 2, 2018 18:26:30 GMT -5
The word "usurp" is this...
authenteó: to govern, exercise authority
Original Word: αὐθεντέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: authenteó
Phonetic Spelling: (ow-then-teh'-o)
Short Definition: I domineer over
Definition: I domineer, govern, have mastery over.
HELPS Word-studies
831 authentéō (from 846 /autós, "self" and entea, "arms, armor") – properly, to unilaterally take up arms, i.e. acting as an autocrat – literally, self-appointed (acting without submission).
It implies that a woman was attempting to undermine and domineer a man, or more specifically, to have "domineering authority" over a man. She was acting without submission to a man, which very likely was her husband, as in other places in the Word, women are instructed to submit to their own husbands. (See, Ephesians 5:22-24; Colossians 3:18; Titus 2:5; 1 Peter 3:1-5) It honors God when a woman honors, obeys, and submits to her own husband (as unto the Lord). We are not told to be in this type of relationship with other men.
We came out of a church over 10 yrs ago where all men held a domineering spirit over all women, and some men were made to feel less-than, and my husband was one of those. I knew with all that was in me, that I was not to be ruled by any other man except my own husband.
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