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Post by tlsitd on Sept 3, 2018 15:13:06 GMT -5
It's impossible to have fellowship when the people involved do not agree on many fundamental points of doctrine. Fellowship requires like-mindedness, not just love. If people are using the same words but with different understandings of what those words mean, they are not really speaking the same language. (This takes time to learn on an online forum such as this, as we find out what each other believes about various things in the process of interacting.)
If I say "Faith means A" and you say "Faith means B", if I say, "The Bible teaches that this is not acceptable or pleasing to God" and you say, "The Bible teaches that this IS acceptable and pleasing to God", if I say, "This is what a pastor, a prophet, or an apostle is" and you say, "No; THIS is what a pastor, prophet, or an apostle is", if I say, "This is essential doctrine" and you say, "That is a matter of personal opinion"---that's not fellowship. Love doesn't cover that. (I love unsaved people and heretics too; but I don't have fellowship with them.) It's not a matter of love, it's a matter of having a fundamentally different understanding about the points of doctrine that together comprise the Christian faith in practice (not necessarily in theology).
Trying to pave that over with love is like trying to fix a potholed road by smoothing concrete over it without filling the holes. It won't hold weight; as soon as vehicles drive over it, they'll fall in, and a traffic jam will result. So it is with communication between Christians with fundamentally different understandings of Scripture. That kind of delicate fellowship can't support any subject of weight, but the fundamental differences of understanding about the teachings of the faith will eventually cause a breakdown in communication and result in the equivalent of a traffic jam, with frustrated people going nowhere.
The only way to solve that kind of jam is for the party or parties who are wrong to learn the truth from God. Scriptural truth is objective, and two opposing understandings of Scripture cannot both be correct (and I'm not talking about paradoxes or matters of personal faith). Some of us here know more of that objective Scriptural truth than others do (I'm simply stating a fact, and I am not only speaking about myself) and some know more about a particular truth or subject than others; but objective Scriptural truth does not change from person to person, only the understanding of it or the lack thereof; and God is the only one who can give any Christian the understanding of His truth, so that he or she will know it for certain, no matter what anyone else believes. No human being can do His job.
So unless that happens---and the road is full of potholes (different interpretations of Scripture and different understandings of fundamental doctrine)---fellowship will be impaired and recurrent conflict will result, just like two people who don't speak each others' languages well trying to communicate in order to accomplish a task together (like the tower of Babel)---in this case the task of spiritual edification. Love can't cover disagreement about the fundamental teachings of the Scriptures that comprise the faith in practice. If it could, Christianity would be whatever anyone thought was correct and did according to that belief, rather than what the New Testament actually teaches as interpreted to all by the Spirit of truth.
That is not God's desire. He wants all of the saints to come to a perfect understanding of His doctrine and to be united in that understanding and in the practices that result from it, not merely united in love. Perfection in understanding and unity based on the truth of what God's word teaches (which word is the foundation of what we each believe to be His will), should be the goal of all the saints---not trying to tread lightly on thin ice. You've got to make the ice stronger. Agreeing to disagree creates thinner and thinner fellowship until there really is none at all.
Disagreements about matters of personal faith (disputable matters that are not fundamental issues of doctrine) can and should be bridged by love for the sake of peace and harmony; but disagreements over fundamental doctrine (and not merely theological doctrine) cannot and should not be. Those should be resolved by every person trying to come to the correct understanding of the truth about the doctrine in question, with the objective of strengthening not only oneself but the group as a whole.
So I recommend to everyone that this be the mentality and practice here at Narrow Way, for the reasons already explained. I hope you will receive it as wisdom.
(The alternative is either division, which has been the (unfortunate) pattern of Christianity for centuries, probably as a result of the same things that are currently happening here at Narrow Way---or paper-thin fellowship between people with fundamental differences in understanding of what Christianity teaches and their practice of the same, tip-toeing around each other, and unable to discuss anything of weight or to encourage one another in the faith, because they don't speak the same language and many of their beliefs are fundamentally different.)
It is not necessary (or even advisable in my opinion) for this forum to be devoted to the debate of every matter of doctrine in the New Testament. Some general discussion is good, but it would be best for the real study of the issues presented to be done by each individual on his or her own, alone with the Lord---not by going back and forth on the internet. Once two or more people can see that they are in disagreement about a teaching of Scripture, they should recognize the fact, leave off the debate, and see about honestly finding out what the Scriptures actually teach, rather than merely agreeing to disagree and moving on to something else---for the sake of the integrity and improvement of the whole group, not just of him or herself, besides the glory of God. The strength of every member is the strength of the group. And we cannot be spiritually strengthened by error, but only by God's truth---by the God-given correct understanding of it and the application of it. That is what God desires, so that is what we should pursue. At the end of the day, with our best efforts, we may still not agree on all of the fundamentals, but we'll certainly be better off than if we agreed to disagree, over and over and over and over...making the ice thinner and thinner and thinner, and smoothing over the potholes with love rather than filling them with truth.
(What constitutes fundamental doctrine and what does not? That could be debated, but one thing is for certain: You can't go wrong with seeking to be right about everything. If it's in the New Testament, find out what it means and what it means for you. It's better to be meticulous and prudent than to be lax or presumptuous where doctrine is concerned, and to assume that whatever it is is important to God unless the Bible says otherwise.)
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. (1 Corinthians 11:2) Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. (KJV)
...Until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into Him who is the head, into Christ... (Ephesians 4:13-15)
(How do you achieve the unity of the faith and avoid being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine and deceived by the deceived and the deceitful? By correctly learning as much of the doctrine of the faith as possible and being united with other believers by the knowledge and application of the same doctrine. Unchallenged error remains error. Challenged error has the potential to be corrected. When we know better, we can do the will of God better and be more like Him in our ways. That is what God wants for each of us, and what our chief aim should be as Christians.)
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 4, 2018 11:28:59 GMT -5
When emotions are high or feelings offended, people do not hear what is being said. They hear what they think is being said, and are defensive because they don't like what is being said or feel as though they are being attacked. So my suggestion to those who are offended is to re-read the above post, carefully, when you can do so calmly and with a clear mind. Otherwise, there's really not much point in my posting anything else since it will be misinterpreted or overlooked in emotion, read through the lens of the misunderstanding and offense that I read on the thread about the The Purpose Of The Living And Powerful Word Of God, which has been fermenting since the thread on Tongues.
If you have questions about what I meant by something I wrote after carefully re-reading the post above, I will answer them, as the Lord wills and enables.
When I see members saying or suggesting that I'm calling people heretics and condemning them to hell for misinterpretations or misunderstandings of Scripture, saying that all we need to focus on is the gospel and that focusing on anything else amounts to Pharisaism (myself being the Pharisee), that I am posting "manifestos" to bash other Christians, and that I'm being disrespectful to the leadership or am proud or think that I know everything, etc, it's very obvious to me that they're not hearing what I'm saying, don't understand me, and that their emotions are speaking.
Rather than assuming that I meant something or am something or think this or that, ask---when you're not upset. Hopefully any misunderstandings can be cleared up.
If you're not willing to actually re-read that post about fellowship for what it says there's really nothing for me to say to you. You're not hearing what I'm saying and you will only misinterpret whatever I say through offended feelings and your misunderstanding of me based on the same. (Please read what I actually wrote, not what you think I wrote, and not what you think I meant.)
As for my interactions with the member I "ran off", which was alluded to on the now-locked thread, The Purpose Of The Living And Powerful Word of God, I gave my judgments and advice to her and to others based on the God-given discernment I have and the understanding of the Scriptures that I have, which is all that any Christian can do and which is no violation of any command in the New Testament, nor a breach of love. (It may not have been pleasant, but it was not rude, proud, selfish, or malicious, and was said out of concern for that member and the other members reading what she was posting.)
Was it severe? Yes. Was it justified? I believe so, or I wouldn't have said it. I didn't say it carelessly, hastily or without reason. I personally decided not to interact with that member for reasons I explained to her. She was not prevented from interacting with anyone else here who desired to do so. I had and have no malice toward her or any other person here. I dealt with her teaching and her beliefs. That is all. I do not believe that Jesus Christ would have dealt with it more lightly, and it is His Spirit who guides me in my interactions with others, to the best of my discernment.
It's also not a sin to state with confidence Scriptural truth that one knows, regardless of whether other people know it or agree with it.
(Apply this to yourselves, not just to me. Can you state objective Scriptural truth that you know and others do not and insist upon it, or are you proud, close-minded or unloving for doing so? Okay then. There are Christians who know more of that objective Scriptural truth than you do. There are Christians who know more of that objective Scriptural truth than I do. There's nothing to be resentful about or proud about. We should all be open and eager to learn and grow by that truth. It's not a sin to correct others either.)
If I tell someone that he or she is in error about something because of his or her misinterpretation or misunderstanding of Scripture that I happen to understand, or because something that he or she is doing isn't Scriptural or violates Scripture, that is all that it is: Stating a fact for the purpose of correcting error for the benefit of the other person and others and the glory of God. More should not be read into it than that.
Or shall we all lay off doing this about anything and say that everything is a matter of personal opinion and interpretation when it isn't? And what kind of fellowship would that be? And how could any discernment be exercised? Is that what God desires, according to the Scriptures? (Please re-read the above post.)
I consider what other people post on this forum (whether or not I respond) and am open to correction, just as I hope they consider what I post and are open to correction. No one here has all Scriptural knowledge, but that doesn't mean that none of us has any, or that some of us don't have more than others, either in general or in specific areas---or wisdom, or spiritual discernment or spiritual maturity. That's the case with Christians anywhere. The purpose of God-given knowledge is to build others up in His truth, just like the Scriptures themselves from which that knowledge derives and with which it agrees; and part of edification involves addressing error---just like part of the practice of medicine involves treating illness and injury.
The same objective truth by which we encourage, comfort and counsel our brothers and sisters in Christ (Scriptural truth) is the truth by which we correct and admonish each other for one another's good and the glory of God. They are the same truth from the same Spirit and the same word. We cannot use the word for one thing (something pleasant, like encouragement), relying on it as objective truth for that purpose, but then make the same word subjective for another purpose (something unpleasant but equally good and necessary, such as correction of error in doctrine or practice). If the truth is not objective to instruct or correct with, then it is not objective to encourage with either. In which case it means nothing definitely and cannot be relied on for anything.
God-given knowledge itself is not a bad thing but a desirable and necessary thing. Using it wrongly and having a wrong attitude about it is bad, but using it rightly is both beneficial to others and pleasing to God, even when that knowledge it isn't pleasant to the other person.
So I encourage you to re-read the above post of mine about fellowship (originally posted on the thread The Purpose Of The Living And Powerful Word Of God), when you can do so calmly and honestly. Then, if you have any questions about what I wrote, or about myself, ask me---with a good conscience toward God and me---and I will answer you so that you will know the truth about those things and will not be going on emotions or assumptions or misunderstandings.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 4, 2018 12:06:51 GMT -5
If I tell someone that he or she is in error about something because of his or her misinterpretation or misunderstanding of Scripture that I happen to understand...
Or shall we all lay off doing this about anything and say that everything is a matter of personal opinion and interpretation when it isn't?
No one here has all Scriptural knowledge, but that doesn't mean that none of us has any... The problem is when two or more people have a high confidence over something they have found in Scripture.
One says they are right, the other says they are right... Instead of bringing things to the table, they just keep on pointing fingers and saying:
No, no. God revealed to me, then there is no chance of being wrong.
Scriptural truth is received by faith, if the majority of the church could not receive it. Or it is too much for them to receive or it is not truth at all.
It is simple... Then forcing Scriptural truth on others will not work.
Neither will the mentality of:
I am flawless in all interpretations I receive.
It is impossible to be 100% accurate over all interpretations of Scripture.
That is why we are members of one body, not a single body or member that is above anything else and is flawless.
That is the humbleness and acknowledgment I expect more from us. Saying like:
I have authority from God, and this and that... Why do you question me?!
If you have authority and gifts, other members also have... Then why not discuss it politely and in a more orderly manner?!
Again, Scriptural truth is received by faith, and given by faith... And no one can receive them unless it is granted to them from heaven.
Please, think about it. And may the Lord bless you all.
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Post by John on Sept 4, 2018 12:32:08 GMT -5
I re-read and moved your post over here, but I still have the same questions as before, and I was never offended.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 14:11:08 GMT -5
It's easy to misunderstand God's command for us to be perfect as He is perfect.....which is talking firstly about whole-hearted devotion and sincerity.......rather than perfection as to every jot and tittle, which kind of perfection is something that the believer grows in and receives from the Lord, and not that we can achieve it through our own efforts. Andrew Murray has some very good writings about the kind of perfection God is after, in case any are interested to look them up. It came to mind as possibly being at the root of some of the things being alluded to lately....if so, Andrew Murray's teaching might be helpful to shed light on the subject. I know the idea of being perfect threw me for a loop when I first took notice of it in scripture...it was a very long while before I came to any understanding of it.
Blessed is the man/woman whose heart is set on pilgrimage......we are in this for the long haul and we all have battles to win and things to overcome in our own hearts as we grow upward in the Lord. It's not just about outward behaviour and having all our ducks in a row, dotting every "i" and crossing every "t"....which I believe is part of what Letters has been addressing, how it is in spirit and by faith that we grow inwardly, not by the letter of the law.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 4, 2018 18:55:43 GMT -5
If I tell someone that he or she is in error about something because of his or her misinterpretation or misunderstanding of Scripture that I happen to understand...
Or shall we all lay off doing this about anything and say that everything is a matter of personal opinion and interpretation when it isn't?
No one here has all Scriptural knowledge, but that doesn't mean that none of us has any... The problem is when two or more people have a high confidence over something they have found in Scripture.
One says they are right, the other says they are right... Instead of bringing things to the table, they just keep on pointing fingers and saying:
No, no. God revealed to me, then there is no chance of being wrong.
Scriptural truth is received by faith, if the majority of the church could not receive it. Or it is too much for them to receive or it is not truth at all.
It is simple... Then forcing Scriptural truth on others will not work.
Neither will the mentality of:
I am flawless in all interpretations I receive.
It is impossible to be 100% accurate over all interpretations of Scripture.
That is why we are members of one body, not a single body or member that is above anything else and is flawless.
That is the humbleness and acknowledgment I expect more from us. Saying like:
I have authority from God, and this and that... Why do you question me?!
If you have authority and gifts, other members also have... Then why not discuss it politely and in a more orderly manner?!
Again, Scriptural truth is received by faith, and given by faith... And no one can receive them unless it is granted to them from heaven.
Please, think about it. And may the Lord bless you all. Let me ask you and the others this (and I expect real responses):
1. How do you know for certain that anything you know from the Bible is actually correct and not just a matter of your best guess or opinion?
2. Can anyone know anything that the Bible teaches with absolute certainty? How?
3. Do you know objective Scriptural truth that other Christians you know do not know or believe? Any truth at all? If so, are you arrogant for stating the fact or overconfident for maintaining your position on that truth that you know?
Answer these questions, please.
If God has revealed a certain thing to me, or has taught me a particular truth from His word, and I state it with confidence for that reason, and it happens not to be something that He has shown you or someone else, what does that have to do with me? You are correct that no one can receive spiritual truth unless God enables him or her to receive it, and that goes for me as much as it does for anyone else. So the best I can do is point others to the source (His word), give them advice on how to find out what is true and what isn't, and pray that He will do the same for them, just as you might do for another Christian who doesn't know something that you know.
You're not upset about anything that we agree on. Could not the same Spirit who taught you from the Bible what we agree on also have taught me the things you don't understand or agree with? Is it possible that I know more than you do about something, or even many things? The same could be the case with another Christian and myself, that they know more than me about something. I have learned and continue to learn from what the Lord has taught other Christians (not necessarily here at Narrow Way but certainly outside of it). What makes you think I don't consider what others post and that I just reject things I don't agree with out of arrogance rather than because I know them to be incorrect?
There is no knowledge contest going on here at Narrow Way as far as I know. Other people think that I think I know everything, not me. I do know many things, for which I am thankful to God and will not deny because it is true, and I do maintain and insist on those things that I know with certainty with confidence. Perhaps the fact that I know many things in this way makes you or others think that I think I know everything and am right about everything. But again, think of Scriptural truth that you know that other Christians you know don't know or believe. They could say the same thing about you. And what would you say to them?
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Post by John on Sept 4, 2018 19:14:24 GMT -5
These are fair questions Lights asked, so I will try to answer them directly.
1. There are some truths in the Bible that are absolutely spelled out and there is no way to misinterpret them. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt I am right on those areas. On other matters, I may believe I am right, but like Job's friends, I could be wrong. They thought they were right in the things they were saying.
2. Yes. The things that are completely spelled out, because there is no way to misunderstand them.
3. Yes I do, simply because I know Christians that have never read their Bible through, even a single time, and I have read it more than 15 times. I would have to know more than them. That just stands to reason. I don't think I am arrogant for pointing that out, because they have the same opportunity to read their Bible too and see what it says and know the same things.
When we are talking about revealed truths, that is another matter. I can be convinced in my heart I have had a truth revealed to me, but I am in no position to tell others absolutely they are wrong based on something I can't prove in absolute terms just using scripture. I will tell them what I believe to be true.
I will give you an example right now of a revealed truth. I believe that I know why people are getting tattoos like crazy. We can all turn to Leviticus and see we are not to print marks on our bodies, but I believe that it was revealed to me that the reason for the tattoo craze is demons are inspiring people to alter their God-given natural appearance, since Satan hates God, and man is created in God's image. I am convinced this is true, but I can't prove that. I won't tell others that must be the reason since I can't prove it using scripture.
There are many other similar things that were revealed to me that I will share, but I won't make a federal case over because others have to see it for themselves.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 4, 2018 20:58:09 GMT -5
Let me ask you and the others this (and I expect real responses):
1. How do you know for certain that anything you know from the Bible is actually correct and not just a matter of your best guess or opinion?
2. Can anyone know anything that the Bible teaches with absolute certainty? How?
3. Do you know objective Scriptural truth that other Christians you know do not know or believe? Any truth at all? If so, are you arrogant for stating the fact or overconfident for maintaining your position on that truth that you know?
Answer these questions, please.
1. Faith. I do not guess anything, it just comes. I know it is truth, it is as simple as that.
But there are times that knowledge or information comes, and you have to interpret that knowledge or information.
It is like something that comes, and you are told how it connects to other things. It is such interpretation that is hard to be translated to words with 100% accuracy.
2. The truth of the gospel is very simple to know. And people can agree to with amazing accuracy.
It is when you get to details of doctrine and spiritual revelations that things start to offer more possibilities.
And all of them can be right, when they all agree to the same truth of the gospel; as we know the same Spirit have many ministries and activities.
3. Yes. But I believe and agree that not all people can receive that truth, but I believe it is truth.
But not receiving that truth will not harm their Christian walk at all, they are just not able to receive it.
I believe we see things differently as our faith allows, there are things some people cannot receive at that moment, but they might receive later.
Blessings, blessings to you in Jesus' name!
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Post by frienduff on Sept 4, 2018 21:18:01 GMT -5
These are fair questions Lights asked, so I will try to answer them directly.
1. There are some truths in the Bible that are absolutely spelled out and there is no way to misinterpret them. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt I am right on those areas. On other matters, I may believe I am right, but like Job's friends, I could be wrong. They thought they were right in the things they were saying.
2. Yes. The things that are completely spelled out, because there is no way to misunderstand them.
3. Yes I do, simply because I know Christians that have never read their Bible through, even a single time, and I have read it more than 15 times. I would have to know more than them. That just stands to reason. I don't think I am arrogant for pointing that out, because they have the same opportunity to read their Bible too and see what it says and know the same things.
When we are talking about revealed truths, that is another matter. I can be convinced in my heart I have had a truth revealed to me, but I am in no position to tell others absolutely they are wrong based on something I can't prove in absolute terms just using scripture. I will tell them what I believe to be true.
I will give you an example right now of a revealed truth. I believe that I know why people are getting tattoos like crazy. We can all turn to Leviticus and see we are not to print marks on our bodies, but I believe that it was revealed to me that the reason for the tattoo craze is demons are inspiring people to alter their God-given natural appearance, since Satan hates God, and man is created in God's image. I am convinced this is true, but I can't prove that. I won't tell others that must be the reason since I can't prove it using scripture.
There are many other similar things that were revealed to me that I will share, but I won't make a federal case over because others have to see it for themselves. While we on this note . I also think another reason for this , is the dark spirits are dumbing down the people and churches to easily accept some kind of chip or tattoo for buying purposes .
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Post by frienduff on Sept 4, 2018 21:21:28 GMT -5
It's easy to misunderstand God's command for us to be perfect as He is perfect.....which is talking firstly about whole-hearted devotion and sincerity.......rather than perfection as to every jot and tittle, which kind of perfection is something that the believer grows in and receives from the Lord, and not that we can achieve it through our own efforts. Andrew Murray has some very good writings about the kind of perfection God is after, in case any are interested to look them up. It came to mind as possibly being at the root of some of the things being alluded to lately....if so, Andrew Murray's teaching might be helpful to shed light on the subject. I know the idea of being perfect threw me for a loop when I first took notice of it in scripture...it was a very long while before I came to any understanding of it. Blessed is the man/woman whose heart is set on pilgrimage......we are in this for the long haul and we all have battles to win and things to overcome in our own hearts as we grow upward in the Lord. It's not just about outward behaviour and having all our ducks in a row, dotting every "i" and crossing every "t"....which I believe is part of what Letters has been addressing, how it is in spirit and by faith that we grow inwardly, not by the letter of the law. YOU absolutely right sister . WE in it for the LONG HAUL . And it don't matter what is coming against us , THE LAMBS OF HIS PASTURE GOT ALL HOPE FOR THEIR HOPE IS THE LORD OH yes , THEIR HOPE IS THE LORD and again I say their HOPE IS THE LORD . I feel lit up like a pack of geese in a lightning storm , minus the pain of course . NOW RAISE THOSE HANDS AND LET ALL PRAISE THE LORD and PRAISE THE LORD ONE AND ALL .
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 4, 2018 21:22:33 GMT -5
These are fair questions Lights asked, so I will try to answer them directly.
1. There are some truths in the Bible that are absolutely spelled out and there is no way to misinterpret them. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt I am right on those areas. On other matters, I may believe I am right, but like Job's friends, I could be wrong. They thought they were right in the things they were saying.
2. Yes. The things that are completely spelled out, because there is no way to misunderstand them.
3. Yes I do, simply because I know Christians that have never read their Bible through, even a single time, and I have read it more than 15 times. I would have to know more than them. That just stands to reason. I don't think I am arrogant for pointing that out, because they have the same opportunity to read their Bible too and see what it says and know the same things.
When we are talking about revealed truths, that is another matter. I can be convinced in my heart I have had a truth revealed to me, but I am in no position to tell others absolutely they are wrong based on something I can't prove in absolute terms just using scripture. I will tell them what I believe to be true.
I will give you an example right now of a revealed truth. I believe that I know why people are getting tattoos like crazy. We can all turn to Leviticus and see we are not to print marks on our bodies, but I believe that it was revealed to me that the reason for the tattoo craze is demons are inspiring people to alter their God-given natural appearance, since Satan hates God, and man is created in God's image. I am convinced this is true, but I can't prove that. I won't tell others that must be the reason since I can't prove it using scripture.
There are many other similar things that were revealed to me that I will share, but I won't make a federal case over because others have to see it for themselves.
Thanks for answering the questions. It's true that there are some things that are clearly spelled out in the Scriptures, but even those things can be explained away through reinterpretation---even the doctrine of the Trinity. People are doing it. So unfortunately, even while it is true that some things are "spelled out", it's not a guarantee that a person will know that something is correct. I don't think there's anything in the Bible, even what is plainly spelled out, that someone couldn't contradict by "reinterpreting" it. This is what is happening to the doctrine of the New Testament in general: People "interpret" it away to nothing, so that nothing means what it says. (But the Scriptures still mean what they actually mean, not whatever people interpret them to mean.) When it comes to revealed truth, I believe that all Scriptural truth is "revealed" in the sense that even if it is written plainly, unless the Holy Spirit also gives a person understanding and certainty about what is written, that person cannot really know with confidence that what he or she believes is correct; he or she just thinks and hopes that it is. Otherwise, if someone comes along with a more convincing argument and Scripture to support it, they might change their mind, even if what they believed at first was actually correct. And what may be in plain sight for one Christian in the Scriptures may not be for another, depending on whether or not the Holy Spirit shows them what the Scriptures mean, even if they've been reading the same Scriptures for years. An example of this is the Calvinist teaching about Christians being unable to forfeit their salvation after coming to be in Christ. This is an extremely popular teaching in Christianity, but it is actually not what the Scriptures teach. There are Scriptures that seem to suggest that it is correct, but there are also Scriptures that suggest that it isn't. Both sides read the same Scriptures, and they come to two different conclusions about it. But only one is correct. The Holy Spirit has not shown those who believe that Christians cannot forfeit their salvation what the Scriptures mean. It's not a secret truth, and not all of the people who believe this false teaching are Bible-illiterate; some of them are scholars, many of them are pastors, who may be correct about other doctrines. It's just a truth that God has to teach a person. It's not a matter of personal opinion either. There is only one correct side of that debate, and it isn't the Calvinist side, even though that is apparently the more popular position of Christians in general. So the Scriptures do not by themselves prove who is correct, nor does the number of Christians who believe a teaching make it correct, even with Scriptural support, which the believers in OSAS have. I've interacted with people who believe what Calvin taught about this, and no matter what Scripture is presented to them, they don't believe it. I don't believe they're just stubborn or that they're stupid. You could say, "It's right there; you'd have to be blind or dense not to see that that is clearly what the Scriptures teach!" But that's not why they don't know it or believe it. It's just because the Holy Spirit hasn't shown them the truth about it and confirmed it to them. It's spiritual issue, not a matter of intelligence or ignorance of Scripture. And so it is with many Scriptural truths. As far as personal revelations that can't be proven by Scripture, those can be shared as such for other people to weigh for themselves, and appreciated as such. I don't think I've insisted on anyone believing personal revelations of mine about things, that I can recall. Most of what the Lord has revealed to me He has revealed to me through Scripture, not outside of it, and I do support most of whatever I share with appropriate Scripture. I'm not the sort to just post things and say, "I believe this so it must be right!" I generally take a lot of time to back up whatever I post with Scripture so that people can see why I know that it's correct. Most of the objections and offense of others to what I post, from what I can tell, is not from personal, extra-Scriptural revelations that I claim to be true and cannot prove with Scripture, but from what I share with confidence based on my knowledge of Scripture---things that the Lord has taught me from His word, and not things that He has given me personal insight about about other things. It's just like the example I gave above with the teaching about unconditional eternal security from Calvinism. Unless God teaches any of us the correct meaning of His word, we won't really know what it means or be certain about what it means, even if we read the Scriptures for years and know what they say, as do the many Christians who believe that Calvinist false teaching---and who would be upset if you told them that what they believed wasn't correct, even though it isn't, and probably wouldn't be convinced that it was otherwise no matter how much Scripture you showed them. Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures... (Luke 24:25)
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 4, 2018 21:25:54 GMT -5
If God has revealed a certain thing to me, or has taught me a particular truth from His word, and I state it with confidence for that reason, and it happens not to be something that He has shown you or someone else, what does that have to do with me? You are correct that no one can receive spiritual truth unless God enables him or her to receive it, and that goes for me as much as it does for anyone else. So the best I can do is point others to the source (His word), give them advice on how to find out what is true and what isn't, and pray that He will do the same for them, just as you might do for another Christian who doesn't know something that you know.
You're not upset about anything that we agree on. Could not the same Spirit who taught you from the Bible what we agree on also have taught me the things you don't understand or agree with? Is it possible that I know more than you do about something, or even many things? The same could be the case with another Christian and myself, that they know more than me about something. I have learned and continue to learn from what the Lord has taught other Christians (not necessarily here at Narrow Way but certainly outside of it). What makes you think I don't consider what others post and that I just reject things I don't agree with out of arrogance rather than because I know them to be incorrect?
There is no knowledge contest going on here at Narrow Way as far as I know. Other people think that I think I know everything, not me. I do know many things, for which I am thankful to God and will not deny because it is true, and I do maintain and insist on those things that I know with certainty with confidence. Perhaps the fact that I know many things in this way makes you or others think that I think I know everything and am right about everything. But again, think of Scriptural truth that you know that other Christians you know don't know or believe. They could say the same thing about you. And what would you say to them?
Certainly yes. End times prophecy being one of them. I know almost nothing about it.
I always was more interested in spiritual truths and edification. That is my main area of interest.If God has revealed a certain thing to me, or has taught me a particular truth from His word, and I state it with confidence for that reason, and it happens not to be something that He has shown you or someone else, what does that have to do with me? You are correct that no one can receive spiritual truth unless God enables him or her to receive it, and that goes for me as much as it does for anyone else. So the best I can do is point others to the source (His word), give them advice on how to find out what is true and what isn't, and pray that He will do the same for them, just as you might do for another Christian who doesn't know something that you know.
You're not upset about anything that we agree on. Could not the same Spirit who taught you from the Bible what we agree on also have taught me the things you don't understand or agree with? Is it possible that I know more than you do about something, or even many things? The same could be the case with another Christian and myself, that they know more than me about something. I have learned and continue to learn from what the Lord has taught other Christians (not necessarily here at Narrow Way but certainly outside of it). What makes you think I don't consider what others post and that I just reject things I don't agree with out of arrogance rather than because I know them to be incorrect?
There is no knowledge contest going on here at Narrow Way as far as I know. Other people think that I think I know everything, not me. I do know many things, for which I am thankful to God and will not deny because it is true, and I do maintain and insist on those things that I know with certainty with confidence. Perhaps the fact that I know many things in this way makes you or others think that I think I know everything and am right about everything. But again, think of Scriptural truth that you know that other Christians you know don't know or believe. They could say the same thing about you. And what would you say to them?
When someone presents you something that is contrary to what you believe and you cannot prove it false then it is an indication that it might be true.If God has revealed a certain thing to me, or has taught me a particular truth from His word, and I state it with confidence for that reason, and it happens not to be something that He has shown you or someone else, what does that have to do with me? You are correct that no one can receive spiritual truth unless God enables him or her to receive it, and that goes for me as much as it does for anyone else. So the best I can do is point others to the source (His word), give them advice on how to find out what is true and what isn't, and pray that He will do the same for them, just as you might do for another Christian who doesn't know something that you know.
You're not upset about anything that we agree on. Could not the same Spirit who taught you from the Bible what we agree on also have taught me the things you don't understand or agree with? Is it possible that I know more than you do about something, or even many things? The same could be the case with another Christian and myself, that they know more than me about something. I have learned and continue to learn from what the Lord has taught other Christians (not necessarily here at Narrow Way but certainly outside of it). What makes you think I don't consider what others post and that I just reject things I don't agree with out of arrogance rather than because I know them to be incorrect?
There is no knowledge contest going on here at Narrow Way as far as I know. Other people think that I think I know everything, not me. I do know many things, for which I am thankful to God and will not deny because it is true, and I do maintain and insist on those things that I know with certainty with confidence. Perhaps the fact that I know many things in this way makes you or others think that I think I know everything and am right about everything. But again, think of Scriptural truth that you know that other Christians you know don't know or believe. They could say the same thing about you. And what would you say to them?
If they do not agree to what I have to say about something.
Then they do not need to agree, because all the knowledge we have is to be used for edification and for the benefit of the gospel.
Then if anyone goes and seek for more they will find it. It is not something the Father want to hide from them. Ask and receive, seek and find.
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!" - Matthew 7:11
I believe knowledge is to be applied and shared not just to be exposed. As it is written:
"...but have not love, it profits me nothing." - 1 Corinthians 13:3
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Post by frienduff on Sept 4, 2018 21:27:08 GMT -5
The simplest thing I say is this , if anyone is getting an understanding from a scripture in one of the letters the apostels wrote IF it contradicts what JESUS said , then it is simply wrong . example . If a prosperity teacher is reading them scrips and pointing to phrases about money . WELL, JESUS said beware of covetousness and for us not to have our heart on the things of this earth , not to store up our treasures here on earth , because where your treasure is their is your heart . OR when they quoate that phrase that JESUS himself said , about I have come that they may have life and life abundantely . THEN turn around and try and make the abundance into a money thing . That is false . FOR even JESUS says quite clear , BEWARE of covetousness for a mans LIFE consists NOT in the ABUNDANCE of what he posses . The more we learn the biblical JESUS , HIS SAYINGS and FOLLOW THE SPIRIT , the more we going to get built up . SOUND DOCTRINE is a deep necessity . For as pual once said , AND BELEIVE ME ITS TRUE , you have known the holy scrips which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith in Christ . And he also says how it gives us insructoin IN righteousness , that the man of GOD may be thoroughly furnished unto ALLLLLLLLLL good works . OH feast on the bible my friends and keep on feasting .
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 4, 2018 22:59:31 GMT -5
It's easy to misunderstand God's command for us to be perfect as He is perfect.....which is talking firstly about whole-hearted devotion and sincerity.......rather than perfection as to every jot and tittle, which kind of perfection is something that the believer grows in and receives from the Lord, and not that we can achieve it through our own efforts. Andrew Murray has some very good writings about the kind of perfection God is after, in case any are interested to look them up. It came to mind as possibly being at the root of some of the things being alluded to lately....if so, Andrew Murray's teaching might be helpful to shed light on the subject. I know the idea of being perfect threw me for a loop when I first took notice of it in scripture...it was a very long while before I came to any understanding of it. Blessed is the man/woman whose heart is set on pilgrimage......we are in this for the long haul and we all have battles to win and things to overcome in our own hearts as we grow upward in the Lord. It's not just about outward behaviour and having all our ducks in a row, dotting every "i" and crossing every "t"....which I believe is part of what Letters has been addressing, how it is in spirit and by faith that we grow inwardly, not by the letter of the law. I understand what you are saying, sister, and I do not believe that that Scripture about being perfect means never sinning or making mistakes. It means being as God is in our ways. Jesus was comparing the way that people naturally treat each other to the way that God wants Christians to treat others, according to His own ways. That's what the perfection means: Be as God is, not the way that natural man is. (There are sinless perfectionists who misinterpret and misuse this Scripture to teach the false doctrine of sinless perfection. I am not one of them.)
Every Christian is growing in understanding and in Christ-likeness (provided he or she is a doer of the word and not just a hearer, and that he or she is in fact reading the word in order to gain understanding). How else can a Christian be transformed by the renewing of his or her mind if he or she is not studying and applying the word that renews our minds and that teaches us how to be? The more of that truth we apply, the more practically holy we are, and I don't just mean external things. We are renewed by knowledge and understanding, which God increases to those who faithfully use what they have and continue to seek it in His word.
It's natural for people to think that obedience to God is mostly or all external. People just naturally think in terms of externals more than internals. (This was something Jesus dealt with with the Pharisees, because Judaism was/is all about external religion that doesn't change the heart.) Most of Christianity has to do with the internal; the external reflects the internal. And the appearance of the external is not a guarantee of the quality of the internal. (There are some Mennonites for example who appear very pious on the outside, but inside they are proud of their dress and lifestyle and are covetous people, and have other vices. Their conservative attire doesn't change their sinful nature, nor is it indicative of greater holiness. It's just what their sect teaches. That doesn't mean that Christians shouldn't dress modestly---they should---but modest dress does not change the heart; it should be an expression of what is in it, honoring the One who dwells in the temple.)
None of us is perfect, but perfection should be our aim, even though we know that it is unattainable in this life: Increasing in knowledge, in steadfastness, in love, in humility, self-death, in wisdom, discernment, in goodness and so forth, and avoiding every kind of evil and impurity---and error---in order to do the will of God more perfectly and to be more like Him in all our ways, and to glorify Him increasingly in the same, until the day we leave this body---not stagnating, or sliding backwards, or comparing ourselves to other Christians rather than to Jesus Christ and thinking that we're good enough because others are worse. (God isn't comparing us to other Christians; He's comparing each one of us to His Son and trying to make us more like Him.)
All of this goes back to doctrine: Understanding and applying that. Not to be know-it-alls, but to be more effective and fruitful Christians and pleasing to God in all things---for which purpose God gave it to us---which we won't be if we don't make that a priority and try to accomplish this some other way.
There is enough encouragement for Christians to make peace with their sinful nature and to compromise the doctrine of the faith (not just its theological doctrine), and to relax and have a good time down here and not be so serious about the word of God. Nobody needs any more of that. It's everywhere. If we're going to encourage one another in something in the midst of this last days apostasy, let it be sound doctrine and increasing in the knowledge of that and being faithful to that to the best of our knowledge and ability by God's grace.
(Can you imagine Jesus Christ, or the apostle Paul, encouraging Christians to do otherwise? Christianity is its doctrine. None of us is going to have a close relationship with the Lord or be pleasing to Him if we treat that lightly. It is a very serious thing to God---more serious than most Christians realize, unfortunately, even though the New Testament has plenty to say about this.)
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Post by Abby-Joy on Sept 5, 2018 0:36:27 GMT -5
Sister Lights, since you asked, I will address you personally....
I have agreed with you on many things, but the thing about this entire subject is that you insist that 100% of the time, your interpretation of certain Scriptures (to the exclusion of others that I posted - as opposed to taking them all together to compete the picture) is the correct interpretation and that anyone who disagrees has not listened to Holy Spirit. On this particular subject which you brought up, you asked me a question and I replied according to what I believe, based in Scripture. In other words, I took not only those 2 or 3 verses you presented, but many others in other places in the Bible... and with those, I was able to see more clearly what was meant by those 2 or 3 other verses.
ALL of Scripture should be considered, not just a few to support a particular desired viewpoint or doctrine. I don't mean that to sound hateful. It is just very frustrating to me. When I want an answer to something, I search it out with much prayer, and want to see all the Lord wants me to see within His Word. I can't take 2 or 3 verses and make a doctrine of it when there are many more that state something seemingly opposite. Knowing that the Word of God does not oppose or contradict itself, then I can't just ignore the Scriptures that seem to say something different. I must be willing to look at all of it, and pray for wisdom to know what the whole picture is. Do you see what I'm saying?
As per your questions, I agree with what others have already answered. But here are my answers. (They may resemble what others already stated.)
1. How do you know for certain that anything you know from the Bible is actually correct and not just a matter of your best guess or opinion? I personally am not comfortable with "best guesses" ... if I don't know something, I admit I don't know it. But I will seek the Lord to reveal to me what He wants me to know from His Word, and I do that on a continual basis. When He shows me something, there is a settled-ness and a peace about it. That is not to say that He might not show me more indepth later on down the road... because that's generally how He works.
2. Can anyone know anything that the Bible teaches with absolute certainty? How? As our brother John John stated, many things are stated very clearly in the Bible and you really have to work hard to misinterpret it. But for the things that aren't clearly stated, I believe our Lord intends us to search them out and seek Him. I'm not sure if that's what you're asking though.
3. Do you know objective Scriptural truth that other Christians you know do not know or believe? Any truth at all? If so, are you arrogant for stating the fact or overconfident for maintaining your position on that truth that you know? Of course. I think that any person who has been walking with the Lord for a good while, will grow in knowledge and understanding. It isn't a matter of arrogance at all... for one, they are usually things pertaining to personal growth and two, I don't push things on my brothers and sisters that I have been shown. I may share it if I feel prompted by Holy Spirit. But they may or may not see it at that point... even if I obeyed Him in sharing it. But it's not up to me to push it. I'm just to obey His leading. If they don't "get it" or don't see or receive it, then I leave it be and pray. It's not up to me to insist that they see what I do. If the person I shared with doesn't get it, I don't see them as unsaved or rebellious. I know that it may be that Holy Spirit wanted me to open the door and speak it, and that later, that seed will be watered and He will bring them to understanding in His time. Sister, when we share things we feel are from the Lord, we ought to do so in humility. We are not perfect. There may be some things that we don't fully understand about some things that we feel confident about.
ALSO... have I ever been wrong about something I thought I knew? Yes, I have. It was usually things that I was immature in, or else I hadn't studied out fully. But there are many things I do not know. And I can say with confidence that there are many things that you do not know. None of us know it all. I'm not a person who speaks hastily about things. I observe a lot, pray a lot, and ask the Lord a lot of questions. The whole point about learning is that there are things we do not know, or things we understand in part that Holy Spirit will reveal in His time.
Mark 13:11 (KJV) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
I hope I answered as tactfully and respectfully as possible. I don't think this needs to be carried on and on. Hopefully, we can get past this ....somehow...
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