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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 5:57:55 GMT -5
Let everything be established by two or three witnesses, so for me that is how I count something to be true. And having the whole counsel of God on a matter. Even then we humbly acknowledge that knowledge will pass away and that we only know in part....and even then again, consider what it means where it says if we think we know we do not yet know as we ought (that is a good one to meditate on). So we grow to understand from these things that there is much more to this than just being correct. We are being changed from glory to glory.....this is an upward call and a spiritual one, we keep on learning and leaving (as it were) what lies behind, what we used to think we knew. In that way, knowledge is a little bit like stepping stones, it's useful to get us to the next step...so to speak, and then we leave it behind and go on to the next. All to teach us to rely on God alone and not lean on our own understanding or treat the scriptures like an idol....our confidence is in Him and not in ourselves, and His intention is to give us wings so to speak, that we would fly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 6:11:49 GMT -5
<< Christianity is its doctrine. >>
We need sound doctrine, of course it's vital, but I think it might be going too far to say that Christianity is it's doctrine, maybe depending on how one means that. Christianity is the living person of Jesus Christ......and doctrine is more the teaching of who HE is and how we are to follow Him. He IS the Way and the Truth and the Life.
I even wonder if we can be too man-centred in a sense of making this all about "our" obedience and good behaviour, rather than being about Jesus. It's like the other end of the pendulum, with the other end being man-centred in the sense of making it all about our comforts and wants. And there is Jesus in the middle waiting for us to come to rest there, and get our eyes on Him and not on ourselves at all.
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Post by Abby-Joy on Sept 5, 2018 14:30:14 GMT -5
<< Christianity is its doctrine. >> We need sound doctrine, of course it's vital, but I think it might be going too far to say that Christianity is it's doctrine, maybe depending on how one means that. Christianity is the living person of Jesus Christ......and doctrine is more the teaching of who HE is and how we are to follow Him. He IS the Way and the Truth and the Life. I even wonder if we can be too man-centred in a sense of making this all about "our" obedience and good behaviour, rather than being about Jesus. It's like the other end of the pendulum, with the other end being man-centred in the sense of making it all about our comforts and wants. And there is Jesus in the middle waiting for us to come to rest there, and get our eyes on Him and not on ourselves at all. This is a real danger! There will be those who trusted so much in their own works that they left off truly knowing Jesus.
Matthew 7:22-23 (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 5, 2018 15:14:20 GMT -5
<< Christianity is its doctrine. >> We need sound doctrine, of course it's vital, but I think it might be going too far to say that Christianity is it's doctrine, maybe depending on how one means that. Christianity is the living person of Jesus Christ......and doctrine is more the teaching of who HE is and how we are to follow Him. He IS the Way and the Truth and the Life. I even wonder if we can be too man-centred in a sense of making this all about "our" obedience and good behaviour, rather than being about Jesus. It's like the other end of the pendulum, with the other end being man-centred in the sense of making it all about our comforts and wants. And there is Jesus in the middle waiting for us to come to rest there, and get our eyes on Him and not on ourselves at all. This is a real danger! There will be those who trusted so much in their own works that they left off truly knowing Jesus.
Matthew 7:22-23 (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." - 2 Corinthians 3:17
"Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love." - Revelation 2:4
"And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold." - Matthew 24:12
"If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us." - 2 Timothy 2:12
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Post by Abby-Joy on Sept 5, 2018 15:31:10 GMT -5
This is a real danger! There will be those who trusted so much in their own works that they left off truly knowing Jesus.
Matthew 7:22-23 (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." - 2 Corinthians 3:17
"Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love." - Revelation 2:4
"And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold." - Matthew 24:12
"If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us." - 2 Timothy 2:12 Yes, Letters! I almost posted that verse (Rev 2:4) ... It is vital that we not leave off knowing Him... that is, to love Him (first love).
1 John 4:19-20 (KJV)
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Sept 5, 2018 17:39:28 GMT -5
Amen to all that. If anyone has read enough of my posts you will have undoubtedly read things about humility, issues of the heart, things that will bring success in Jesus Christ. Things that will build and edify your relationship with God... Because God desires mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Our relationship is of utmost importance. God understands we will stumble and fall. But a righteous man might just maybe fall seven times... and yet will he rise. Johnathan Edwards put it best in his sermon, sinners in the hand of an angry God. When someone thats not saved dies there is no right hand of God to keep him from falling down in to hells gaping mouth. What is the real deal here? attitude of the heart. in our heart do we choose to live like God or are we comfortable wallowing in the filth like a pig? A sheep sometimes will get muddy, and dirty... but it aint to long before that sheep cant stand being filthy and will do anything to get clean again. Its apart of a sheeps nature. its really a catch 22 type of thing. we cant have obedience, true obedience with out God, and we cant have God without obedience. sin kills. What i bring away from the book of romans is sin is either killing us or we are killing sin. As long as we are honestly and earnestly trying to live holy... God will help us. if we become comfortable with our sin... well God withdraws. Not that He has left us, of forsaken us, because He is faithful, even His name Faithful and True. We should be diligent in keeping our lamps trimmed, and keeping extra oil, yes indeed. But God is not waiting to pounce on a sinner like a lion laying in wait. When i was a little boy, as early as four years old, I could discern spirits. I was abused in every way but sexual. And every night when i would lay down to sleep on days when i was abused these spirits would be in my bedroom raving. Bouncing off the walls, zipping thru the air, laughing at my misery. I would pray, and God would show up. they would leave. I asked God everything I could think of to make this abuse stop. He did nothing. He allowed it to continue. As a young boy I thought God is not helping me, He is not my friend, He dont care about me. this caused me to stop praying and eventually it drove me to darkness. occult type things. and not the "happy white magic" side either. As I grew up several times i should have surely died... killed. In the moments after I felt God. Declaring to me He saved me from that. But still my heart was hardened. I would not accept Him. Would not turn. I had expectations of Him that were not based on who He was. All the time He did stick closer than a friend to me. He remained faithful, even when i was not. He had every right to cast me off, forever. And even to this day, His love never fails me. Yeah, He lets me know when I have messed up, But when i put the get right to my heart... there He Is. I do not live just by what the bible says... I live by what God shows me and tells me... and shows and tells me the bible says. I hold my relationship higher than simply looking at my actions and the bible. Its The Holy Spirits job to convict us, and if we are doing our part in seeking He does His. Because of This great Love He has for us. I am not going to walk on eggshells to never mess up... I am going to live my life, and when i do mess up I will decide to never do that again. I will do my best to not live sinfully, but walking on eggshells is more strife than one should have. I will try to keep my mind out of the gutter to guard my heart, but thoughts come and go. God looks at our heart. We are justified by Faith in Jesus, just-if-i'd- never sinned. As long as our relationship with God is in good standing, meaning not letting sin rule us, when God looks at us He sees Jesus in us. We are to live righteously... but our righteousness is as filthy rags. Those little words like but and if mean so much...If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Its not about what we do... its about IF we do it, what God does in and thru us. God is so good. So faithful. His love and mercy endures forever.
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 8:24:04 GMT -5
It is sometimes so hard to fathom from our earthly perspective, the suffering that the Lord allows to happen under heaven. But what I see is that so often it is broken vessels that the light shines through most brightly. And that He knew all of His own before we were even born….He was already watching over us and preparing us to be His vessels before we ever knew Him. If we had not suffered in some ways beforehand, it’s very possible we might not have been able to receive the gospel when He came calling. I have not suffered as much as many have, but when the Lord healed my childhood, it was through the simple revelation that He had been there with me the whole time….I had not been alone, or forsaken, or unloved as the enemy had led me to believe. He knew ALL of our days before one of them came to be.
Psalm 27:10-11 When my father and my mother forsake me, THEN the LORD will take me up. Teach me thy way, O LORD, and lead me in a plain path, because of mine enemies.
Psa 129:1-5 Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth, may Israel now say: Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth: yet they have not prevailed against me. The plowers plowed upon my back: they made long their furrows. The LORD is righteous: he hath cut asunder the cords of the wicked. Let them all be confounded and turned back that hate Zion.
Isa 51:20-23 Your children have fainted; they lie at every street corner, like antelope caught in a net. They are filled with the wrath of the LORD, with the rebuke of your God. Therefore hear this, you afflicted one, made drunk, but not with wine. This is what your Sovereign LORD says, your God, who defends his people: “See, I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger; from that cup, the goblet of my wrath, you will never drink again. I will put it into the hands of your tormentors, who said to you, ‘Fall prostrate that we may walk on you.’ And you made your back like the ground, like a street to be walked on.”
Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Jhn 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
Psalm 139:1-16 1 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 6, 2018 9:17:08 GMT -5
Sister Lights, since you asked, I will address you personally....
I have agreed with you on many things, but the thing about this entire subject is that you insist that 100% of the time, your interpretation of certain Scriptures (to the exclusion of others that I posted - as opposed to taking them all together to compete the picture) is the correct interpretation and that anyone who disagrees has not listened to Holy Spirit. On this particular subject which you brought up, you asked me a question and I replied according to what I believe, based in Scripture. In other words, I took not only those 2 or 3 verses you presented, but many others in other places in the Bible... and with those, I was able to see more clearly what was meant by those 2 or 3 other verses.
ALL of Scripture should be considered, not just a few to support a particular desired viewpoint or doctrine. I don't mean that to sound hateful. It is just very frustrating to me. When I want an answer to something, I search it out with much prayer, and want to see all the Lord wants me to see within His Word. I can't take 2 or 3 verses and make a doctrine of it when there are many more that state something seemingly opposite. Knowing that the Word of God does not oppose or contradict itself, then I can't just ignore the Scriptures that seem to say something different. I must be willing to look at all of it, and pray for wisdom to know what the whole picture is. Do you see what I'm saying?
As per your questions, I agree with what others have already answered. But here are my answers. (They may resemble what others already stated.)
1. How do you know for certain that anything you know from the Bible is actually correct and not just a matter of your best guess or opinion? I personally am not comfortable with "best guesses" ... if I don't know something, I admit I don't know it. But I will seek the Lord to reveal to me what He wants me to know from His Word, and I do that on a continual basis. When He shows me something, there is a settled-ness and a peace about it. That is not to say that He might not show me more indepth later on down the road... because that's generally how He works.
2. Can anyone know anything that the Bible teaches with absolute certainty? How? As our brother John John stated, many things are stated very clearly in the Bible and you really have to work hard to misinterpret it. But for the things that aren't clearly stated, I believe our Lord intends us to search them out and seek Him. I'm not sure if that's what you're asking though.
3. Do you know objective Scriptural truth that other Christians you know do not know or believe? Any truth at all? If so, are you arrogant for stating the fact or overconfident for maintaining your position on that truth that you know? Of course. I think that any person who has been walking with the Lord for a good while, will grow in knowledge and understanding. It isn't a matter of arrogance at all... for one, they are usually things pertaining to personal growth and two, I don't push things on my brothers and sisters that I have been shown. I may share it if I feel prompted by Holy Spirit. But they may or may not see it at that point... even if I obeyed Him in sharing it. But it's not up to me to push it. I'm just to obey His leading. If they don't "get it" or don't see or receive it, then I leave it be and pray. It's not up to me to insist that they see what I do. If the person I shared with doesn't get it, I don't see them as unsaved or rebellious. I know that it may be that Holy Spirit wanted me to open the door and speak it, and that later, that seed will be watered and He will bring them to understanding in His time. Sister, when we share things we feel are from the Lord, we ought to do so in humility. We are not perfect. There may be some things that we don't fully understand about some things that we feel confident about.
ALSO... have I ever been wrong about something I thought I knew? Yes, I have. It was usually things that I was immature in, or else I hadn't studied out fully. But there are many things I do not know. And I can say with confidence that there are many things that you do not know. None of us know it all. I'm not a person who speaks hastily about things. I observe a lot, pray a lot, and ask the Lord a lot of questions. The whole point about learning is that there are things we do not know, or things we understand in part that Holy Spirit will reveal in His time.
Mark 13:11 (KJV) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
I hope I answered as tactfully and respectfully as possible. I don't think this needs to be carried on and on. Hopefully, we can get past this ....somehow...
I agree with your responses to the questions. I think I said before that I do consider what other people post, and provide Scripture and explanation for why I believe what I believe. I don't generally just dismiss what other people say; my responses tend to be very lengthy and sometimes take me several hours to write, to be thorough and accurate, proof-reading, etc.
Obviously I cannot do this for every person, or I would never leave the computer, and I have other responsibilities. Also, when it becomes apparent that the other person doesn't agree with something that I know to be true, I do leave it to the Lord to show it to them, which is the only way that any of us can know with certainty that what we believe the Scriptures teach is actually correct. I'm constantly recommending to others how to know the truth about what they read, because I want them to know, not because I want people to believe what I believe. If what I believe is correct, I certainly hope they do come to know that truth also. If I'm wrong, I want to know it.
I've been wrong about things that I have believed and I continue to grow in understanding about things, like any Christian. But when I do know for certain that the Scriptures teach something, I can't accept error from someone else who believes that what they are presenting is correct, even if they have a lot of Scripture to support it.
You can go back to the example I gave in my response to Butero about the teaching of Calvinism. The same is true for many things. And if one Christian happens to know more truth about a number of things in Scripture than others do, even if others believe that what they believe is correct, and the one who knows more maintains his or her position on that truth, it's inevitable, I think, that the one who knows more will be considered an arrogant, close-minded know-it-all, when that's not actually the case.
Perhaps my maintaining my position on the truth that I do know and countering what I know to be false makes me seem to others like I'm forcing my beliefs on them, not open to anyone else's point of view, and that I'm proud and unloving. I don't really know what to say to that. If I state that something is a false teaching, and it actually is, but nobody else on the forum knows it but me---what am I to say? (Again, go back to the example I gave in my response to Butero.)
I'm not a perfect judge of myself, but as far as I can discern myself, I avoid and crucify pride. But confidence and pride are not the same thing, and sometimes---maybe even oftentimes---pride is a matter of perception rather than reality. Probably because we all are proud naturally so we tend to assume that other people are, even if they aren't.
There are many things that I do not say anything about, because I don't think it would be beneficial to the other person for me to address what I know is incorrect or to share what I know is true. Sometimes the truth is better withheld for the sake of love and peace, and praying for the other person is the better choice, as you said. Not everyone is in a spiritual place to receive certain truths, and I'm no exception. God knows what each of us is ready for. So I try to follow His lead to the best of my discernment with regard to what I address and how or whether I say anything at all. I'm certainly not perfect in this way, but I'm doing the best I can and I'm sure I will continue to improve.
And just for the record, I consider all Scripture in both its immediate context and in the greater context of the collective Scriptures which relate to a subject. I don't take verses out of context and weave a doctrinal belief around them.
I'm also very glad to hear about your practice in studying the Scriptures:
When I want an answer to something, I search it out with much prayer, and want to see all the Lord wants me to see within His Word. I can't take 2 or 3 verses and make a doctrine of it when there are many more that state something seemingly opposite. Knowing that the Word of God does not oppose or contradict itself, then I can't just ignore the Scriptures that seem to say something different. I must be willing to look at all of it, and pray for wisdom to know what the whole picture is.
That's a great practice. I do the same thing. Even with this practice, none of us can know a truth except that God also gives us the correct and complete understanding of it. We might think that a particular Scripture or Scriptures refers or relates to a certain thing when in fact it doesn't and is unrelated. Also, we might understand the teaching but not the point of the teaching. This is the work of the Holy Spirit to show us.
Thanks for your response.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 6, 2018 9:43:15 GMT -5
<< Christianity is its doctrine. >> We need sound doctrine, of course it's vital, but I think it might be going too far to say that Christianity is it's doctrine, maybe depending on how one means that. Christianity is the living person of Jesus Christ......and doctrine is more the teaching of who HE is and how we are to follow Him. He IS the Way and the Truth and the Life. I even wonder if we can be too man-centred in a sense of making this all about "our" obedience and good behaviour, rather than being about Jesus. It's like the other end of the pendulum, with the other end being man-centred in the sense of making it all about our comforts and wants. And there is Jesus in the middle waiting for us to come to rest there, and get our eyes on Him and not on ourselves at all. I sort of figured when I wrote that that someone might misunderstand what I meant by that. I meant specifically that the Christian faith, as a "religion", consists of its doctrine, not that the center and substance of Christianity is doctrine rather than faith in and our relationship with Jesus Christ. Obviously, faith in Christ is the foundation of Christianity, without which there is no true Christianity, no matter what a person practices. The doctrine comes after that rebirth, and it is by that doctrine that we learn who God is and how to live for Him, which is its purpose. Our relationship with Jesus Christ and the doctrine that we know and apply to our lives as Christians cannot be separated; the former depends upon the latter. The very love of God is to obey Him, and we obey Him according to what we know, which is doctrine. The more obedient we are, the better our relationship with Jesus will be. The whole point of our obedience to Christian doctrine IS Jesus Christ---not trying to be religious---and we do it because we HAVE our eyes on Him and are trying to do His will and walk in His ways in order to please Him. That's not man-centered at all. And we can't even do that except by His grace. (I do honestly feel like I'm speaking a foreign language sometimes.) You can't live for Jesus Christ in truth if you don't do so according to His doctrine, despite the fact that He lives in you. That would be living for yourself with Jesus Christ along for the ride. That's man-centered. The more of the doctrine of Christianity a Christian applies to his or her life, the LESS man-centered and the MORE Christ-centered a Christian will be---which is the purpose of the doctrine; and vice versa.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 6, 2018 10:20:01 GMT -5
It's natural for people to think that obedience to God is mostly or all external. People just naturally think in terms of externals more than internals. (This was something Jesus dealt with with the Pharisees, because Judaism was/is all about external religion that doesn't change the heart.) Most of Christianity has to do with the internal; the external reflects the internal. And the appearance of the external is not a guarantee of the quality of the internal. (There are some Mennonites for example who appear very pious on the outside, but inside they are proud of their dress and lifestyle and are covetous people, and have other vices. Their conservative attire doesn't change their sinful nature, nor is it indicative of greater holiness. It's just what their sect teaches. That doesn't mean that Christians shouldn't dress modestly---they should---but modest dress does not change the heart; it should be an expression of what is in it, honoring the One who dwells in the temple.)
THIS right here was a wonderful example of how one can appear HOLY and yet inside is not . THIS was correctly said because I notice you also said THIS Does not mean we are NOT to dress modestly , WE SHOULD , but modest dress does not change the heart , but if a heart has been changed IT WOULD dress modest . This is where many pastors fail . they too accuse the modest dress, and make that seem as its wrong or a performance of holiness, WHEN in fact IT aint the modest dressing that is wrong , that is RIGHT , its what is in the heart and why one does as HE does that makes one either right or wrong . WHY do we do as we do . IS it for the eyes of men the act of appearing all holy and righteous , OR is it simply because we are LED of the SPIRIT and follow CHRIST and thus we do THE THINGS by HIS SPRIRIT that are WELL PLEASING IN HIS SIGHT .
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 6, 2018 10:20:33 GMT -5
...which is the only way that any of us can know with certainty that what we believe the Scriptures teach is actually correct. One important point, Scriptures do not teach. It is the Holy Spirit alone who teaches and shows and explain how and why of what is written.
And obviously, the fruit of what you have been shown must be compatible with the Holy Spirit: Good, perfect, holy. And it is accompanied by certainty, assured by faith.
Now, faith comes in different levels. Sometimes it comes so sharply that you get very excited in spirit, sometimes it comes just as a gentle assurance.
"And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ." - Matthew 23:10
It is how I have been instructed by faith since I have started reading the Word in December 2016.
The Spirit can also give you the assurance if such thing is truth, to a point that it makes no contradiction with all the Word.
I have been noticing that the more you trust in the Spirit, the more He will reveal to you as desire and faith allows.
But trusting in the Spirit by faith is very, very important to get a correct understanding.
Again, believers must talk with each other and discuss about the things they have been shown.
Pride and division kills the body, it is like not letting the blood flow through certain parts.
Because some revelations are best analyzed if they group what they have received and look for matches and possible agreement over new things.
Blessings to you in Jesus' name!
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 6, 2018 10:26:44 GMT -5
The point of my post is that the goal of fellowship should be to be united by correct doctrine as much as possible, rather than merely to make peace by sweeping things under the rug, which leads to poorer fellowship in truth, the more this is done, not better, as I explained. Not that I want people to quarrel (I do not), but I do want to encourage them to be serious about knowing as much truth about Christian doctrine as possible---and I don't just mean its theology---because God does take it extremely seriously (more seriously than most Christians realize), and because what we believe the Scriptures teach affects how we practice the faith (more or less pleasing to God) and also how discerning we are, about the will of God and about what is and what is not of Him.
If people disagree on an issue, debating it on an online forum might lead to quarrels, which is why I suggested that they end the debate when it becomes apparent that their beliefs are opposite and that they do the research for themselves to find out what the Scriptures actually teach, instead of just being content to believe what they believe and to let the other person believe what they believe. Reconciliation by knowledge should be the goal, if possible, to strengthen and be united with each other, by the increasing and more perfect knowledge of God's truth.
If my beliefs about something are challenged, and someone makes a point that I had not previously considered, I go back to the Scriptures to see whether what they are saying is correct, with prayer. Because I want to be correct about what I believe and do, to do what pleases God to the fullest degree, not just think I am correct. I'm not content to say, "Well it's correct because I believe it." I need confirmation from the Scriptures and from God to be sure that it is. If it's not correct, I want to change it.
I don't and won't know everything, but I'm a whole lot better off for doing this than Christians who are less diligent are. God's mercy for our ignorance isn't an excuse for laziness in seeking. (And I'm speaking generally, not accusing any person here of being lazy in their study of the Scriptures, just to be clear. I don't know what you're doing.) He gave us His word for a reason, and told us to make every effort to add to our knowledge from it. This is especially true when it comes to doctrine.
The more we do this about all things, the more truth we will know; and because Scriptural truth is objective, the more of that each of us knows, the more we will agree with each other on the same, and the better our fellowship will be, besides our personal walk with the Lord. True unity of the faith cannot be achieved any other way. And while I recognize that it's very unlikely that any of us is going to agree on everything, trying to do so, based on God's truth, will inevitably yield better results than not trying and just being content to believe whatever we think is right and do whatever we've been doing.
That's all I'm saying. Don't argue; discuss; and if you disagree, be diligent enough to find out what the Scriptures actually teach for yourself. God wants us to speak the same language, and to have the same mind, not just to get along. Improvement of ourselves and of one another and increasing unity with one another based on His truth should be the goal of fellowship, not just peace and love. (Even love is affected by doctrine.)
And what I am recommending can and should be done in love, not for some other reason or with some other attitude---making concessions for disputable matters of personal faith. (Romans 14; 15:1-7)
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Post by frienduff on Sept 6, 2018 10:29:23 GMT -5
<< Christianity is its doctrine. >> We need sound doctrine, of course it's vital, but I think it might be going too far to say that Christianity is it's doctrine, maybe depending on how one means that. Christianity is the living person of Jesus Christ......and doctrine is more the teaching of who HE is and how we are to follow Him. He IS the Way and the Truth and the Life. I even wonder if we can be too man-centred in a sense of making this all about "our" obedience and good behaviour, rather than being about Jesus. It's like the other end of the pendulum, with the other end being man-centred in the sense of making it all about our comforts and wants. And there is Jesus in the middle waiting for us to come to rest there, and get our eyes on Him and not on ourselves at all. I think we misunderstood what she meant . Because IF she means it the way I think she does , THIS IS TRUE . TRUE CHRISTANITY IS BASED on WHO WE FOLLOW , FOR IT SHOWS WHOSE SPIRIT IS REALLY IN US . And JESUS preached it like this . WHY do you call me LORD , LORD yet do not the things which I say . He then goes on to explain one who CAME TO HIM , yes CAME TO HIM and heard and DID . versus one who hears and don't . HE who loves me KEEPS MY SAYINGS . JESUS SAYINGS are THE DOCTRINE , not just some mans doctrine , it can be summed up very clear like this . GOD IS HIS WORD . Whatever JESUS taught , WHO sent the WORD and gave the WORD what to say . I think the best way to say that would have been. TRUE CHRISTANITY LOVES JESUS DOCTRINE and whoever hears and does , IS OF HIM . Christanity is its doctrine , simply means TRUE CHRISTAINS FOLLOW CHRISTS DOCTRINE and those who don't , well , it aint real christanity is it . JESUS made a whole sermon and in other places made it clear , that HE who hears yet does not , THEY FLAT OUT DONT KNOW HIM . FOR if HE is in us , IF HIS SPIRIT is truly in us , WOULD it not BE HE who is working in us that which is WELL pleasing , anyone want to finish the last two words . a hint , not in mans sight , not in what WE think is right , BUT RATHER what is pleasing IN HIS SIGHT .
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 6, 2018 10:32:20 GMT -5
The point of my post is that the goal of fellowship should be to be united by correct doctrine as much as possible... OK, but you must not impose limitations such as:
The doctrine covers speaking in tongues.
Then you come and say, only in this way and in this way, and in this language one must speak.
No, this is not right.
Again, the doctrine covers healing by faith in Jesus' name.
Then you cannot come and say, only in this way, and this way, and that way because those are the only ways written in Scripture.
No, this is not right.
You can heal in infinite number of ways, it is by faith. The doctrine covers healing by prayer, word, in any way.
You cannot limit the ways by Scripture.
There is only one rule one must follow:
"...Freely you have received, freely give." - Matthew 10:8
"Let all things be done decently and in order." - 1 Corinthians 14:40
"...if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." - Galatians 5:18
"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." - 2 Corinthians 3:17
Blessings to you in Jesus' name!
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Post by frienduff on Sept 6, 2018 10:48:12 GMT -5
An example can be found in what JAMES said . BRETHREN have NOT THE FAITH of our LORD with resepct of persons . OR watch what paul said in I saw that he walked NOT according to the GOSPLE . what was paul talking about , and notice HE said not according to the GOSPLE THE GOSPLE no part of it , has us walk contrary to what JESUS taught , to walk in sin or darkness . He was saying this about peter and baranbas and those who had separated themselves out from the gentiles . Let us not have the faith of our LORD with sin can be said just the same . cause was not respect of persons SIN . We so used to what men have taught us , BUT I SHOW UNTO US a better way , and that better way is , FEAST ON THEM BIBLES and through our faith in CHRIST be made wise unto salvation . FEAST on those pages , learn from men WHO REALLY DID KNOW JESUS , who really DID teach according TO THE SPIRIT . feast and let the things that men have made confusing BE CLEARED UP in sound doctrine , BY the POWER of the SPIRIT that dwells in us . FEAST on that bible and never put it down . Feast on those pages and keep on feasting and then keep on feasting . ALL things in it are written for our admonition , our learning , that the people of the LORD may be thoroughly furnished unto ALL GOOD WORKS . FEAST , oh feast on the pages of the wonderful GOD INSPIRED HOLY BIBLE . FEAST like a baby lamb on its mothers teet FEAST like a half starve bull dog on a pork chop . FEAST as though those words of JESUS are the very meat that nourishes our soul , FOR IT TELL US ALL, THEY ARE . ANd it is written that man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD OF GOD . FEAST on those pages and heed that perfect doctrine that the lambs may grow thereby and no longer be tossed to and fro by mens doctrines by which they lie in wait ever so crafty to deceive and allure . FEAST on the WORDS that THE WORD who became flesh did teach and then those apostels UNDER THE GUIDANCE OF THE COMFORTER DID TEACH . FEAST on those pages and may the taste be as honey , as rivers of smooth honey reaching down into the inner most depths of our soul BY THE WONDER WORKING POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT . What I say to one I say to all, FEAST , and FEAST DAILY on the beautiful bangquet of the words OF OUR LORD and of the apostles who followed HIM .
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