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Post by tlsitd on Sept 10, 2018 8:07:38 GMT -5
Love does not insist on its own way; but it does insist on God's.
Some of us have more understanding about a particular teaching or Scriptural truth than others do. This is just a fact in any group of Christians. This is why humility is important in fellowship, as well as patience. We're not all equal in understanding; but those who have more understanding about a particular truth or truths should see themselves as servants of those who have less, without pride; and those who have less understanding should see those who have more as servants of themselves for their benefit, without pride. And all should have God's desires for His saints in mind, and the attitudes of His Spirit, whether we are giving or receiving knowledge or correction. This is the right way to walk in love.
If we would love others rightly, our attitude must be this: God's will first; then what is in the best interest of others according to that same will; then what is beneficial to us according to that same will. Do you notice what is missing from this? Our own desires and feelings and the desires and feelings of others independent of or before God's.
Paul didn't insist on his own way when it came to disputable matters, but he insisted upon doctrine---not for his own sake, but because it was the will of Jesus Christ for His church, and Paul was a minister of the church according to that will.
Now if someone doesn't know or correctly understand a teaching or truth of Scripture (speaking of the doctrine of Christianity), and another person comes along and tells him or her that what he or she believes about that particular thing is incorrect, and doesn't budge on the issue (because that person's understanding of it actually is correct and the other's is not), how will the person who is in error know that what the other person is saying is really correct and not just that other person's opinion unless God shows him or her that it is correct? The person who doesn't know may think that the one who knows is insisting on his or her own way for his or her own reasons, when he or she may actually be insisting on God's truth, for God's reasons.
Like all things in a Christian's life, our fellowship with each other is not first and foremost about us and what we want, but about Jesus Christ and what He wants. (Re-read that.) That is what all of our interactions with each other should be based upon. The goal of fellowship is to build up. And building up requires not merely encouragement in whatever is good and right and true that everyone may know and agree upon, but also sharing knowledge and correcting one another in love to improve each other spiritually according to God's desires.
So I would remind everyone here to be careful to make that your pursuit and focus, and not self-gratification of any kind---wanting to feel good. God does not make that a priority in His word; neither should we in our living and doing. Making ourselves or others feel good is not the primary purpose of Christian doctrine or fellowship, but spiritual edification unto sanctification and unification is.
Remember this order: God's will first; then what is in the best interest of others according to that same will; then what is beneficial to us according to that same will.
The love of God never requires compromising correct doctrine to achieve or maintain. But it does require being patient with others and knowing what to share with them and in what way and when---always with God's goals and attitudes, according to the Scriptures, at heart, and following the leading of His Spirit to the best of our discernment.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. (1 John 5:2,3)
We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. (Romans 15:1,2)
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 10, 2018 10:09:25 GMT -5
Now if someone doesn't know or correctly understand a teaching or truth of Scripture (speaking of the doctrine of Christianity), and another person comes along and tells him or her that what he or she believes about that particular thing is incorrect, and doesn't budge on the issue (because that person's understanding of it actually is correct and the other's is not), how will the person who is in error know that what the other person is saying is really correct and not just that other person's opinion unless God shows him or her that it is correct? The person who doesn't know may think that the one who knows is insisting on his or her own way for his or her own reasons, when he or she may actually be insisting on God's truth, for God's reasons. Sincere faith is the answer.
"For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." - 1 Corinthians 14:33
"Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith..." - 1 Timothy 1:5
And if truth is what matters to you, then God will give you the understanding and knowledge of that truth.
"But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth." - James 3:14
"Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others." - Philippians 2:4
"...Let all things be done for edification." - 1 Corinthians 14:26
"Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." - 1 Corinthians 10:31
Blessings, blessings to you in Jesus' name!
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Post by frienduff on Sept 10, 2018 10:18:52 GMT -5
And if truth is what matters to you, then God will give you the understanding and knowledge of that truth.
YES LETTERS . FOR IT IS ONLY GOD who can even give one the LOVE OF THE TRUTH . GOD alone gives the person a whole new heart and the key is , WITH WHOLE NEW DESIRES . not the old flesh desires . AND how do we KNOW the desire is of GOD IT WILL HONOR the SON , IT WILL HONOR GOD < TRUTH first . From that we do see HOW to build up , correct , edify and encourage the others . BY that SAME SPIRIT . and that SPIRIT Magnifys the SON , LOVES HIS SAYINGS . I want to ask us all a question that i am sure we know . WHO turned my feet on day one with a hundred and eighty degree FROM the direction i was headed , TO THE DIRECTION that leads TO GOD . GOD DID . Jesus gave many warnings about what can choke the word out of folks . So let us all learn deeply and love HIS Wholesome words LOVE HIS pattern and from HIS PATTERN and BY HIS SPIRIT we then have that perfect Love towards others . THE LOVE that does not comprise truth THE LOVE that POINTS TO TRUTH for the sake of the other .
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Post by frienduff on Sept 10, 2018 10:22:26 GMT -5
Always remember , if love ever comprosmises OUR HOLY GOD in any way , ITS NOT LOVE no matter that they thought it was . WHEN love omits TRUTH , THEN IT IS NOT the LOVE that comes from GOD. IT IS SIMPLY the wisdom that came from men , sensual , earthly . WHEN any love omits OUR LORD , HIS SAYINGS in any way . THEN IT IS NOT LOVE , it is a rejoicer of inquity . AND LOVE rejoices not in inquity , ONLY IN TRUTH . ITREJOICES in truth , it don't try and find a way around truth .
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 10, 2018 10:45:58 GMT -5
Now if someone doesn't know or correctly understand a teaching or truth of Scripture (speaking of the doctrine of Christianity), and another person comes along and tells him or her that what he or she believes about that particular thing is incorrect, and doesn't budge on the issue (because that person's understanding of it actually is correct and the other's is not), how will the person who is in error know that what the other person is saying is really correct and not just that other person's opinion unless God shows him or her that it is correct? The person who doesn't know may think that the one who knows is insisting on his or her own way for his or her own reasons, when he or she may actually be insisting on God's truth, for God's reasons. Sincere faith is the answer.
"For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." - 1 Corinthians 14:33
"Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith..." - 1 Timothy 1:5
And if truth is what matters to you, then God will give you the understanding and knowledge of that truth.
"But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth." - James 3:14
"Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others." - Philippians 2:4
"...Let all things be done for edification." - 1 Corinthians 14:26
"Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." - 1 Corinthians 10:31
Blessings, blessings to you in Jesus' name!Yes, that's the key: The attitude of the heart and what we are doing with what we already know. If those things are right (in God's sight), we will all continue to increase in our understanding of the teachings of God's word in order to live pleasing to Him---if that is truly our desire. And if that is our desire, we will naturally be seeking after more of that understanding, for that reason. It's all about God.
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Post by John on Sept 11, 2018 6:22:35 GMT -5
The issues arise when 2 different people see things exactly the opposite. They are both sure they are right and not budging for that reason. They are both certain that if the other person would seek God, the other person would see they had been wrong. The scriptures must agree with what you think you hear from God.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 11, 2018 11:04:08 GMT -5
The issues arise when 2 different people see things exactly the opposite. They are both sure they are right and not budging for that reason. They are both certain that if the other person would seek God, the other person would see they had been wrong. The scriptures must agree with what you think you hear from God.
To be sure, it's not an easy situation in such cases. I don't claim to have all the answers to its solution either. But I think that keeping a humble mind about whatever we know or believe is helpful in this---not merely dismissing what other people present because we don't like it (or them) but really taking the time to consider what they are saying and going back to the Scriptures when necessary to see whether what they are saying is correct. We definitely don't want pride to prevent us from coming to a right understanding of something we may be mistaken about. At the same time, there are some things that we know to be correct and don't need to go back and study the Bible again to re-evaluate. If someone wants to prove to me from the Scriptures that when Jesus said that He and the Father are one He meant that He was the only Person of God (Jesus only), I'm not going restudy the Scriptures about it. That would be a waste of my time and of no benefit to me. Now the other person might think I'm proud because I tell him or her that he or she is the only one who needs to go back and study the Scriptures about this subject because his or her understanding of what they teach about this is wrong, but it's the truth. There's not a whole lot that can be done about that. Obviously, this isn't always the case in every situation---sometimes both need to go back and study---but sometimes it is. Going back and forth with supporting Scripture is useful to a point---until the point where it becomes obvious that no agreement can be reached because the Lord has not given one (or both) the correct interpretation, or that the two sides aren't communicating with each other because they have different understandings about what various Scriptures mean and what they apply to---or one or both are getting angry and not hearing what each other say because they're angry or resentful. Nevertheless, it's not necessarily futile; you never know whether God might give whoever is in error understanding and conviction about the truth of what the other person was saying later on.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 11, 2018 11:10:00 GMT -5
Debating different scriptures can be useful if one side has truly never studied or put a lot of effort into a particular subject. If there are Bible verses he has never considered before, he can be persuaded. So we can introduce things to see if the other person has put much thought into his position. But once you get to the point of going in circles, it is time to disengage.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 11, 2018 11:54:22 GMT -5
I should also like to bring up a different side to this. Sometimes people use correct doctrine as a smokescreen for personal therapy. The spirit behind a doctrinal teaching makes a difference.
Say there's a woman in the church who leads a ladies study group. She can't forgive her skirt-chasing husband for having an affair. Every group study session for the next year is a tirade on Proverbs 5. Technically she's correct in her doctrine, but her tone is wrong. Soon the teenage girls in her class start to develop fears that they'll never be modest enough, or they can't talk to cute boys, or it's a sin to braid their hair. The teacher has destroyed a generation of women in her church because she used doctrine as a weapon.
Then perhaps the boys in this church start to see females as ice-cold doctrine robots who don't appreciate men. A young man who grows up in this will hate women. He spends a lot of time studying the topic of women being silent in the church. Women in his presence get the idea they are being berated, but they can't pin it on his doctrine.
Doctrine must be tempered with emotional intelligence.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 11, 2018 12:55:56 GMT -5
Whatever any of us knows to be correct from the Scriptures, if it really is correct, we know because God has given us that understanding. And whatever we do not know we do not know because God has not yet given us that understanding. No one can do God's job in this way: Even with all the Scripture in the Bible, unless God gives understanding and convicts someone of the truth of something he or she isn't understanding, he or she won't understand or receive it as truth. It's more than a matter of the person's mind; it's also a matter of the Spirit revealing truth to the person and convicting him or her of it. And pushing the subject when a deadlock arises for that reason only leads to anger, resentment and quarrels.
In the pursuit of sharing knowledge, we should all be very mindful of the attitudes of our hearts and why we are doing what we are doing---because it can shift and turn corrupt if we're not careful, thanks to our sinful nature.
Are we liking posts because we agree with what has been said by someone, or because the person said something against someone we don't like? That's not righteous behavior, or loving; that's like people fighting in a parking lot and other people spurring on or rooting for the side they support: "Yeah; get 'em!" (The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, and none of us is above slipping into or giving in to its attitudes.) I don't want anyone to like my posts for that reason.
(Or, conversely, are we not liking posts because we don't like the person who posted them, rather than because we don't agree with what they are saying? (Not that anyone has to like posts for any reason, even if they agree with what is said.))
Are we posting things because we believe that the knowledge shared will improve the other members here spiritually in the way that God desires and because we genuinely love them, or are we posting things merely to promote a personal point of view or to show off what we know, or to debate for carnal reasons---using the Bible to attack others rather than to correct and build others up with truth in love?
I don't think much of any progress can be made in the way of understanding what each other is saying if one or both parties has a bad heart attitude: Resentment or malice for example, or pride. I don't believe God gives much understanding to a Christian when his or her heart is harboring such things.
So if any of us thinks we're going to make progress in coming to mutual understandings about doctrine while we're secretly angry at one another and thinking evil of one another or want another person "taken down" or "Bible-smacked", we're fooling ourselves---and shaming the Lord besides. (Picture the eyes of Jesus Christ looking at your heart with that kind of attitude and tell me I'm wrong.)
We all know what the Bible says about how our attitudes toward each other should be; nobody needs a homily from me on it. And I don't know whether any of what I am addressing in this post is the case with any of the members here; only God knows everyone's heart. But I'm posting this as a general word of warning and advice to all.
I am human like everyone else, but I can honestly say for myself that I am very careful to try to put my emotions to the side when I'm dealing with matters of Scriptural truth, and not let my feelings prevent me from reading and trying to understand what someone else is saying and why---or from walking in love, in any situation. Sin is not just a matter of what we say and do, but also of the motives and attitudes of our hearts; and God deals with us according to these just as He does according to what we do and say.
One final note, about the motives and attitudes of the heart: No one here is a perfect judge of character or motives---either our own or others'---so let's avoid making that the focus of discussions here, unless we're speaking in general terms about things---and leave that judgment to Jesus Christ, before whose eyes are each of our hearts and our ways.
Let's try to just analyze what people are saying, and not get bogged down in why we think they're saying it and what we think they are or aren't, or think that they think they are. If we have questions about someone's reasons for saying something, let's ask questions, rather than making assumptions and judgmental statements based on our assumptions, perceptions or feelings. (If you don't want others to do that to you, don't do it to them.)
Let's address specific behaviors, when appropriate, with a good conscience toward the other person and God, if something offends us or is contrary to what the Scriptures teach, but avoid accusing people of doing this or that for this or that reason unless we know for a fact that that is what they are doing and that they are doing it for that reason---especially publicly.
Nobody here is perfect, and nobody here is qualified to judge the hearts and motives of others here officially. We can address behavior, give our personal judgment of the same with our reasons for thinking this, and ask questions; and if the answer we receive from the other person disagrees with what we believe to be true of them, let's keep our feelings and beliefs about them to ourselves and be content to let God be the judge of the other person, just as He is of us, and get on with the pursuit of edification and unity, according to His desires.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 11, 2018 13:00:11 GMT -5
My comment on personal therapy was not an indictment of anyone here. It was probably bad timing to bring that up. I promise you, I really was just saying that in general terms. I agree with you that we should absolutely stand against pettiness.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 11, 2018 13:20:51 GMT -5
The issues arise when 2 different people see things exactly the opposite. They are both sure they are right and not budging for that reason. They are both certain that if the other person would seek God, the other person would see they had been wrong. The scriptures must agree with what you think you hear from God.
exactly . THIS Is why if for example JESUS said the ONLY REASON one can put away the spouse and remarry IS for fornication , or as we know IF THEY DIE . THEN no matter what men try and teach , no matter how they see doctrine , IF that doctrine allows for any other reason , then said party IS WRONG , this is why folks aruge and aruge . BUT I SAY , IF JESUS SAID WE DO and no finding any way around that . THAT MUST BE THE MINDSET . IF JESUS said and we think we find something in old test and we bring that to make a case for our understanding , YET IT CONTRADICTS JESUS . WE BETTER LAY ON OUR FACE in the PRONE and start over realizing we were wrong . THE KEY is knowing that JESUS ALONE understands all things AS THEY Are meant for man TO KNOW . its why we got the problmes we got today . FOLKS don't realize , HEY , JESUS was not just some wise ol man , HE THE ONE WHO CREATED ALL THINGS . IF HE SAYS WE DO , and we find nor try and justify A way AROUND THAT . ITS SO SIMPLE really . but the reason we have strife upon strife and everyone believing I am right they are wrong , IS WHO WE REALLY FOLLOW . LOOK TO JESUS FIRST , LEARN HIM , LEARN HIM WELL . we will learn that no apostel contradicted JESUS in any of their teachings ONLY MEN WOULD TEACH US THAT . ONLY MEN would accuse paul of being false , OR say WELL JAMES WAS JUST SAYING THAT TO JEWS and it don't apply to us . MEN DID THAT and they will pay a price no man can carry , IF THEY DONT STOP THIS and STOP IT NOW and learn JESUS NOW .
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Post by frienduff on Sept 11, 2018 13:26:25 GMT -5
FOR JESUS was , NOT CREATED rather HE created . HE is not some way among many ways . HIS DOCTRINE is not of men . NEVER WAS . ITS OF GOD . I mean , ever jot and tittle , every example , every saying , every action , WAS OF GOD HIMSELF . NOW lets go expose those creatures who dare think otherwise . JESUS aint some household brand name . NOT the creation of man , NOT some good sounding idea . HE said before Abraham was I AM . AND THAT MEANS what it means . ITS WHY the jews picked up stones AT THAT SAYING. I AINT gonna heed a lick of what men who teach contrary to JESUS say . AINT going to do it . and even that attitude IS BY GRACE . From every dire and upmost extreme warning JESUS EVER GAVE to every promise , to everything HE DID , was for our good . So men who speak contrary AINT GONNA BE HEARD OR FOLLOWED . A lamb FOLLOWS THE LAMB . NOW LIFT THOSE HANDS IN THUNDEROUS PRAISE TO GOD . OH LET THE PEOPLE REJOICE IN THE LORD .
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 11, 2018 13:38:02 GMT -5
My comment on personal therapy was not an indictment of anyone here. It was probably bad timing to bring that up. I promise you, I really was just saying that in general terms. I agree with you that we should absolutely stand against pettiness. Well thanks for the note, sister, but my comment was independent of what you posted. Still, this is sort of an example of what I was addressing in my post: You thought that my comment had to do with your comment, but it didn't. It was completely unrelated; just my own thoughts. That's how misunderstandings can happen on a forum. I also didn't assume that what you posted had anything to do with me either. But thanks for the note of clarification anyway; maybe others did think that. Now everyone knows the truth. Misunderstanding solved.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 11, 2018 13:42:34 GMT -5
SOLVED . NOW PRAISE THE LORD peoples . RAISE THOSE HANDS AND BELLOW OUT PRAISES TO THE LORD . OH REJOICE IN THE LORD and LOVE EVERY OUNCE OF BIBLE DOCTRINE . FEAST on it . FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAST on it . You are all loved .
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