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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 12, 2018 9:43:43 GMT -5
It's a dangerous thing to tell a person that saving faith is just trusting God to save one. PG4Him John frienduff tlsitd Abby-JoyIt is simple. Those who are saved have the Spirit of Christ.
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." - Romans 8:9
"...Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. ...Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 8:34+36
"I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." - Mark 1:8
"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him." - 1 John 2:15
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." - John 8:32
"the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." - John 14:17
"...If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." - John 14:23
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." - John 6:63
"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." - Romans 8:11
"Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”" - 2 Timothy 2:19
"Therefore
“Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.”" - 2 Corinthians 6:17
Blessings, blessings to you in Jesus' name!
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 12, 2018 9:51:22 GMT -5
Here is another note about faith---and it's sort of the flip side of the name-it-and-claim-it kind of belief (that if we just believe something hard enough we can make God do it, in which case the power really resides with us rather than with God, who gives us faith to receive and do certain things that are truly His will for us personally and then works according to the same conviction and knowledge), and that is this:
When we read something in the Scriptures, about something that God does and that we can rely on Him to do, but we don't actually live according to that word, that is unbelief. And we won't see God work in the way He says He will work for us if we don't believe what He says in His word, and prove that we believe it by what we do.
An example: God tells us that He will provide us with food and clothing if we pursue His kingdom and His righteousness, and we also know from the Scriptures that He supplies His saints with everything they need to do His will for them, whatever that may be.
He also tells us not to go into debt ("Owe no man anything" Romans 13:8).
So a Christian who is living a lifestyle that requires or involves voluntary debt is not living by faith in that way, even if he or she thinks that he or she is. He or she is not relying on God and trusting in God to supply his or her needs according to His will, but is providing for him or herself what he or she wants with loans and credit to live the way he or she wants to live and to have what he or she thinks he or she needs.
Now if a Christian like this really wanted to live by faith in this way, he or she would get rid of those credit cards and get out of that debt and would do and have only what God provided them with actual money to do or have with a job. Then his or her life would be conformed to God's actual will for him or her in that way. He or she might not be able to continue living where and as he or she has been living, but he or she would have everything that he or she needed to do God's will----even if that was just food and clothing.
So while we shouldn't be foolish, and believe that God is going to do whatever we think He will do or believe He will do (although there's nothing wrong with trusting Him to do something we want Him to do and know He is able to do, so long as we keep in mind that it may or may not be His will to do it), we also should not be unbelieving when it comes to trusting God to do what He says He will do for us in His word when we obey Him in a certain thing.
If we think we are trusting God when we are actually trusting in the institutions of the world that are a substitute for Him, in things like credit and loans which allow us to have things that we don't have the actual money for, we're really deceiving ourselves in that way, thinking that we have faith that we don't really have.
How do you know it's God's will for you to own a home? How do you know He wouldn't be pleased for you to rent? If owning a home requires a mortgage, and if buying a car requires a car payment, you cannot afford those things. You are living beyond your God-given means by debt.
If you really trust God to provide you with everything you need to do His will (not what you want or what you think His will is), avoid debt, and trust Him. Put your faith where your mouth is. That's not putting God to the test---like walking off of a cliff and expecting Him to keep you from falling would be---it's rightly trusting God to provide for you as you keep His commandment about owing no man anything. Which might, and probably will, result in a much different way of living than the way that the world lives, and that most Christians live, and having a lot less than what you are accustomed to---and having to rely on and trust in God a whole lot more.
There might be times when your money is short, and you don't know how you're going to pay for something. But if you're living according to God's commands and what you know His will to be, He will supply your needs and direct your path according to His will, and you'll learn to be content without whatever He doesn't provide, and will go wherever He leads you and not put down roots in a place He no longer desires you to be. If you reach for a credit card or a loan in such situations, you won't see Him work in your life in the way a Christian who does not do this will. The Christian who takes God at His word in this way has more faith in Him than one who doesn't.
So that's just something else to consider, with regard to the subject of faith. It does seem a bit hypocritical and ironic to me that folks who believe in name-it-and-claim-it, don't have any problem with using credit or taking out loans. Where is their faith then?
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 12, 2018 9:58:09 GMT -5
If you repented of your sins, believe in Jesus and asked him to save you, and do not turn back, you are saved. The devil can come along and cause a real Christian to have doubts. The Lord won't turn anyone away that comes to him seeking salvation if they are willing to follow him. In addition, if you did turn back into sin and are truly sorry, confess those sins to God and he promises to forgive you.
That is something that only God can give an individual the assurance of. While it's true that some people who are truly born again can be deceived into doubting their salvation by false teachings or demonic suggestion, no human being has the authority to declare another person saved. If the person him or herself doesn't know that for certain, God has to give them that assurance, not man. My assurance of my salvation comes from the Holy Spirit, not what other people tell me I am or am not or believe that I am or am not---as should every Christian's.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 12, 2018 10:08:58 GMT -5
Help me understand, sister.
“Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, " YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, " YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” Romans 13:7-10
The Old Testament permitted loans as long as no one made a profit on someone else’s hunger. How do you reckon Romans 13 forbids us to enter a mortgage contract?
Not trying to jump on you. Seriously asking.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 12, 2018 10:12:31 GMT -5
That is something that only God can give an individual the assurance of. While it's true that some people who are truly born again can be deceived into doubting their salvation by false teachings or demonic suggestion, no human being has the authority to declare another person saved. If the person him or herself doesn't know that for certain, God has to give them that assurance, not man. My assurance of my salvation comes from the Holy Spirit, not what other people tell me I am or am not or believe that I am or am not---as should every Christian's. Agreed.That is something that only God can give an individual the assurance of. While it's true that some people who are truly born again can be deceived into doubting their salvation by false teachings or demonic suggestion, no human being has the authority to declare another person saved. If the person him or herself doesn't know that for certain, God has to give them that assurance, not man. My assurance of my salvation comes from the Holy Spirit, not what other people tell me I am or am not or believe that I am or am not---as should every Christian's. This is true. I have facing many, many experiences like that.
You know it is the accuser, and they make you feel really really sad, it is painful.
But you know somehow it is a spiritual attack from the enemy, and you know they are accusing you falsely.
The way to get out of this is to believe in the truth, and pray, and wait. Have patience, persevere in the truth, and the lie will simply vanish.
"For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth." - 2 Corinthians 13:8
"Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up." - James 4:10
Such attacks can come for many reasons, as form of chastening or to learn.
I confess I have learned many things from experiencing spiritual attacks.
"...and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit." - John 15:2
"Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." - Hebrews 12:11
Blessings to you in Jesus' name!
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 12, 2018 11:38:08 GMT -5
Help me understand, sister. “Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, " YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, " YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” Romans 13:7-10 The Old Testament permitted loans as long as no one made a profit on someone else’s hunger. How do you reckon Romans 13 forbids us to enter a mortgage contract? Not trying to jump on you. Seriously asking. It's like what Proverbs 22:7 says---the borrower is slave to the lender; but a Christian is the slave of Christ. All of a Christian's money belongs to God to do with as He wills, and tying that money up in voluntary debt (which a mortgage is---nobody needs to "own" a home that he or she can't pay for in full---likewise with a car loan) prevents the Christian from having it available to do whatever God may want him or her to actually do with it.
The systems of loans and credit also enable a Christian to live beyond his or her actual God-given means, to have and do more things that tie up their time and thought and draw their desires away from the things of the Lord, as they would not be so enticed and preoccupied if they had less. It opens the door to having what the world has and doing what it does in a way that the person would not be able if he or she lived only according to his or her actual means. Financial restriction is one of the ways that God keeps us in His will and directs our lives.
Related to this is what Paul wrote about not becoming slaves of men (1 Corinthians 7:23)---by selling oneself into indentured servitude to pay for something---because we are slaves of Jesus Christ. Our bodies and our money belong to God to do His will in this life.
I think what it comes down to is God desiring our complete devotion to Himself and not wanting us to be ensnared and distracted by the desires for things and the love of money, which can be a substitute for God, and to live for ourselves rather than for Him. (There's a difference between living for oneself first and obeying God to avoid sin while doing so, and living for God first and obeying God to do His perfect will, to please Him.)
Look at what happened to the Laodiceans. And a Christian doesn't necessarily have to be rich for that to happen.
Where your treasure is, your heart will be also, and if our hearts are set on having what the world has---because we think that God wants us to have those things ("The American Dream" for example)---rather than on doing whatever the Lord's will is for us and having only whatever He decides is necessary to do that, we will have a different (and poorer) faith walk than we would if we had the opposite focus. The American Dream is not from God; it's an invention of the men of this world, and no guarantee for a Christian.
I think this is probably something that a lot of Christians need to reconsider: Whether they have what they have and live as they live because it is really what God wants for them according to His will (and the commands of the New Testament are a good place to start), or because it's what they want and they believe God wants the same thing for them that they want for themselves.
I don't claim to be an expert on this subject, but I do know that "Owe no one anything" (Romans 13:8) really means what it says---not to go into debt. When that passage goes on to describe the commandments of the law that are fulfilled by love, not going into debt is not included in that teaching. Romans 13:8-10 can be read this way:
Owe no one anything (This is the end of the command about debt),
except to love each other... (Now he is going on to the subject of love, and explaining how the commands written in the law are fulfilled by "love your neighbor as yourself"---a different subject from owing no one anything.)
Paying rent or purchasing things or paying taxes is not debt. That is covered by "pay to all what is owed to them" Romans (13:7). If you pay your rent on time, you have paid everything that you owe the landlord. You are not in debt to him; you are paying for a service. Likewise with paying monthly bills---like gas and electric---or paying for groceries, or paying taxes. You're only in debt if you don't pay on time.
But in the case of car loans and home loans and credit cards, those come with interest, for one thing, and they are payments on something you owe the bank, which the bank "bought" for you because you couldn't afford it and you are paying them back for, like an indentured servant (a "slave"). The bank is making money off of the person it loans to (you're actually paying more for what you purchased with a loan than you would have if you had actually bought it with money you had). And you have not paid everything that you owe when you make payments on the loan, as in the case of taxes or rent or monthly utility bills: You actually owe the balance of your purchase, not just the monthly payment on your loan, with interest. And if you can't pay, the bank takes your car or your home and repossesses your possessions. You are enslaved to the bank, in truth, and don't actually own what you own; the bank does. You're giving the Lord's money to the bank to pay for things that you don't need, instead of using it for whatever He wants it to be used for and being content to live within your actual God-given means.
Maybe a better way to look at this would be to ask yourself why you think God wants you to go into voluntary debt for anything? My guess is that you think He doesn't mind you doing so, or you believe that He wants you to have what you have and live as you live with debt. (I don't know what you do personally, I'm just speaking in general.)
If we have the mentality (and I'm speaking in general here again) that what we want or what other people have should be or is what God wants---and we're also not careful to consult and study the teachings of the New Testament with regard to things we are trying to make decisions about---and we're not sincere about knowing and doing whatever God's will actually is for us, no matter what the cost to us is, and praying for Him to guide us according to the same, we will most likely find support for whatever we want to do in His word. We might get to have or keep what we want, but we'll lose out spiritually in some way, and also won't be living according to the perfect and pleasing will of God in that way.
Also, none of us has perfect faith about everything. So long as we are doing what we know God's will to be to the best of our knowledge, He will continue to give us more understanding of the same. The conflict arises when He reveals something to us that costs us something that we have, or requires us to do something that we haven't been doing or to give up doing something that we have been doing believing that it was His will or acceptable to Him. This happens to all Christians. That's when we have to choose between ourselves and Him---either to go forward according to His will, or to stay where we are according to our own; and both choices have consequences.
And as far as what the Old Covenant permitted or didn't permit, when the teachings of the Old and the New conflict, the New is the final authority.
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Post by Abby-Joy on Sept 12, 2018 12:04:47 GMT -5
It's a dangerous thing to tell a person that saving faith is just trusting God to save one. SISTER LIGHTS we should DO this . THIS is the basis of our whole gospel . BUT we also need to instruct those who do believe this TO continue on IN CHRIST < to read SOUND doctrine and to be on guard against the flesh and follow only the SPIRIT . but THIS telling a person that saving faith means to trust in GOD to save one . IS THE WHOLE OF THE GOSPLE . don't over analyze the simple . The main part of all the teaching of the apostels , WHILE IT WAS BIG TIME ON CORRECTION IT WAS HUGE on reminding and pointing to CHRIST alone who saves us and IS the ONE who can keep us from FALLING. I look not at a person who says JESUS is savoir and assume one way or the other whether or not they have saving faith, WHAT I LOOK at , IS DO THEY FOLLOW THIS JESUS they claim saved them . THAT IS where you will spot their faith. IF faith has not works IT IS DEAD. ____ Does that make sense Everyone . WHEN we look at one who claims to have the saving Faith of JESUS , we don't assume one way or the other whether they are or not . WHAT WE DO is examine their walk , their faith , BY WHO THEY HEAR AND WHO THE FOLLOW , are they hearers ONLY deceiving their own selves OR are they TRULY of the saving faith , which hears and does , its a hearer and a DOER of the word . I HOPE that is plainly said . THIS is what we look at , DO they REALLY FOLLOW the LAMB or is it in vain . THE ONLY WAY to KNOW that IS you shall know them by their fruits . a hearer only and not a doer of the word , THEIR FATIH IS VAIN , its dead . THAT is how we know and this is how we remind and stir up the TRUE SAVING FAITH of our LORD . WE correct , remind , rebuke , encourage , BUT ITS JESUS WE POINTING TOO ITS HIM we point to. WE REMIND BE NOT HEAERES ONLY deceiving yourselves , OR truly your faith is dead , its not saving faith . FOR saving faith TRULY DOES TRUST IN CHRIST , SAVING FAITH , which truly does come by HEARING and hearing by the WORD , is going to OBEY that WORD , CHRIST , and be doers of the word . OR their faith is vain . its dead . So lets not over think any thing . SAVING FAITH , IS TRUSTING IN JESUS WHO DOES SAVE and CAN KEEP US FROM FALLLING . it is the work of GOD and it comes by Grace . ONLY Let us follow the SPIRIT , OBEYING the ONE who works within all who believe and trust in HIM . I can see what you're saying, brother. We certainly are to trust in God as well. Trust is also something that takes place in the heart. Perhaps, Sister Lights is saying it's not just in the head, but in the heart.
Proverbs 3:5, "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 12, 2018 12:08:40 GMT -5
Help me understand, sister. “Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, " YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, " YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” Romans 13:7-10 The Old Testament permitted loans as long as no one made a profit on someone else’s hunger. How do you reckon Romans 13 forbids us to enter a mortgage contract? Not trying to jump on you. Seriously asking. It's like what Proverbs 22:7 says---the borrower is slave to the lender; but a Christian is the slave of Christ. All of a Christian's money belongs to God to do with as He wills, and tying that money up in voluntary debt (which a mortgage is---nobody needs to "own" a home that he or she can't pay for in full---likewise with a car loan) prevents the Christian from having it available to do whatever God may want him or her to actually do with it.
The systems of loans and credit also enable a Christian to live beyond his or her actual God-given means, to have and do more things that tie up their time and thought and draw their desires away from the things of the Lord, as they would not be so enticed and preoccupied if they had less. It opens the door to having what the world has and doing what it does in a way that the person would not be able if he or she lived only according to his or her actual means. Financial restriction is one of the ways that God keeps us in His will and directs our lives.
Related to this is what Paul wrote about not becoming slaves of men (1 Corinthians 7:23)---by selling oneself into indentured servitude to pay for something---because we are slaves of Jesus Christ. Our bodies and our money belong to God to do His will in this life.
I think what it comes down to is God desiring our complete devotion to Himself and not wanting us to be ensnared and distracted by the desires for things and the love of money, which can be a substitute for God, and to live for ourselves rather than for Him. (There's a difference between living for oneself first and obeying God to avoid sin while doing so, and living for God first and obeying God to do His perfect will, to please Him.)
Look at what happened to the Laodiceans. And a Christian doesn't necessarily have to be rich for that to happen.
Where your treasure is, your heart will be also, and if our hearts are set on having what the world has---because we think that God wants us to have those things ("The American Dream" for example)---rather than on doing whatever the Lord's will is for us and having only whatever He decides is necessary to do that, we will have a different (and poorer) faith walk than we would if we had the opposite focus. The American Dream is not from God; it's an invention of the men of this world, and no guarantee for a Christian.
I think this is probably something that a lot of Christians need to reconsider: Whether they have what they have and live as they live because it is really what God wants for them according to His will (and the commands of the New Testament are a good place to start), or because it's what they want and they believe God wants the same thing for them that they want for themselves.
I don't claim to be an expert on this subject, but I do know that "Owe no one anything" (Romans 13:8) really means what it says---not to go into debt. When that passage goes on to describe the commandments of the law that are fulfilled by love, not going into debt is not included in that teaching. Romans 13:8-10 can be read this way:
Owe no one anything (This is the end of the command about debt),
except to love each other... (Now he is going on to the subject of love, and explaining how the commands written in the law are fulfilled by "love your neighbor as yourself"---a different subject from owing no one anything.)
Paying rent or purchasing things or paying taxes is not debt. That is covered by "pay to all what is owed to them" Romans (13:7). If you pay your rent on time, you have paid everything that you owe the landlord. You are not in debt to him; you are paying for a service. Likewise with paying monthly bills---like gas and electric---or paying for groceries, or paying taxes. You're only in debt if you don't pay on time.
But in the case of car loans and home loans and credit cards, those come with interest, for one thing, and they are payments on something you owe the bank, which the bank "bought" for you because you couldn't afford it and you are paying them back for, like an indentured servant (a "slave"). The bank is making money off of the person it loans to (you're actually paying more for what you purchased with a loan than you would have if you had actually bought it with money you had). And you have not paid everything that you owe when you make payments on the loan, as in the case of taxes or rent or monthly utility bills: You actually owe the balance of your purchase, not just the monthly payment on your loan, with interest. And if you can't pay, the bank takes your car or your home and repossesses your possessions. You are enslaved to the bank, in truth, and don't actually own what you own; the bank does. You're giving the Lord's money to the bank to pay for things that you don't need, instead of using it for whatever He wants it to be used for and being content to live within your actual God-given means.
Maybe a better way to look at this would be to ask yourself why you think God wants you to go into voluntary debt for anything? My guess is that you think He doesn't mind you doing so, or you believe that He wants you to have what you have and live as you live with debt. (I don't know what you do personally, I'm just speaking in general.)
If we have the mentality (and I'm speaking in general here again) that what we want or what other people have should be or is what God wants---and we're also not careful to consult and study the teachings of the New Testament with regard to things we are trying to make decisions about---and we're not sincere about knowing and doing whatever God's will actually is for us, no matter what the cost to us is, and praying for Him to guide us according to the same, we will most likely find support for whatever we want to do in His word. We might get to have or keep what we want, but we'll lose out spiritually in some way, and also won't be living according to the perfect and pleasing will of God in that way.
Also, none of us has perfect faith about everything. So long as we are doing what we know God's will to be to the best of our knowledge, He will continue to give us more understanding of the same. The conflict arises when He reveals something to us that costs us something that we have, or requires us to do something that we haven't been doing or to give up doing something that we have been doing believing that it was His will or acceptable to Him. This happens to all Christians. That's when we have to choose between ourselves and Him---either to go forward according to His will, or to stay where we are according to our own; and both choices have consequences.
And as far as what the Old Covenant permitted or didn't permit, when the teachings of the Old and the New conflict, the New is the final authority.
Would you be interested in reading a thoughtful examination of my viewpoint on this? It certainly isn’t just another variation of “I shall do what I want as long as it isn’t technically forbidden.” It’s a serious matter I’ve meditated on quite a bit. But, I don’t want to toss words to the wind if you are putting forth your final word on the subject.
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Post by Abby-Joy on Sept 12, 2018 12:17:32 GMT -5
I wouldn't go so far as saying that living in a house is not a need. It's the same reason people pay rent to live in one - it is a need (unless God says to go live under a bridge or in a cave, a car, or a tent, etc). Also, if someone pays cash for a house and land, they still owe taxes every year, or their property will be taken away. No one truly owns property anymore. (That's a whole different subject, though.)
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 12, 2018 12:22:31 GMT -5
No one truly owns property anymore. (That's a whole different subject, though.) "For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." - 2 Corinthians 5:1
"In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." - John 14:2
"...I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." - John 14:3
"Therefore comfort one another with these words." - 1 Thessalonians 4:18Blessings to you in Jesus' name. You are loved.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 12, 2018 12:30:27 GMT -5
We put ourselves in a box by what we choose to obey from God's word. We can seal ourselves off from God's working in our lives in various ways by deciding what we will and won't allow Him to do, and limit His dealings with us in that way by making certain things off limits to Him and choosing not to seek and do His will in a matter. God's commandments are designed to transform our way of thinking from the way that the world thinks and to make (and keep us) heaven-minded and Christ-minded, and dependent upon Himself.
God guaranteed us two things in doing His will in this life: Food and clothing. He could provide us with other things if that's His will, but He doesn't guarantee us homes and cars and businesses and retirement and vacations and a college education. Those are the world's ideals, not God's. The American Dream is not a part of the New Testament's teachings; it's the dream of the people of this world (and probably of bankers who want people's money in loans and mortgages).
So if we really want God to increase our faith and see Him work in all the ways He can and will in our lives, we can't put ourselves in a box by not allowing Him to work in every area of our lives according to His will, by choosing what we will and won't obey from His word and deciding what God can and can't decide or control: "God, You can touch my hobbies, but You can't touch my job." "God, You can touch my church but You can't touch my house."
God will lead us as much as we choose to follow Him. If we put ourselves in a box in some way, He'll probably do things to try to draw us out of it and encourage us to go forward with Him; but if we refuse, He's not going to force us. He'll let us keep what we have and do what we want, but we'll miss out on blessings by boxing ourselves in to preserve whatever we have or want---which is proof that we believe that what we have is better than what God has for us, and also that we love ourselves more than we love Him, and that we don't trust in His love for us.
(We'll avoid a lot of suffering by staying in the box. That will also increase the more access to our lives we give God, together with spiritual blessings, such as seeing God work for us and experiencing Him making up for whatever He takes away or withholds. But the end of that suffering according to His will is transformation and spiritual strengthening in the here and now, and eternal rewards.)
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 12, 2018 12:31:21 GMT -5
It's like what Proverbs 22:7 says---the borrower is slave to the lender; but a Christian is the slave of Christ. All of a Christian's money belongs to God to do with as He wills, and tying that money up in voluntary debt (which a mortgage is---nobody needs to "own" a home that he or she can't pay for in full---likewise with a car loan) prevents the Christian from having it available to do whatever God may want him or her to actually do with it.
The systems of loans and credit also enable a Christian to live beyond his or her actual God-given means, to have and do more things that tie up their time and thought and draw their desires away from the things of the Lord, as they would not be so enticed and preoccupied if they had less. It opens the door to having what the world has and doing what it does in a way that the person would not be able if he or she lived only according to his or her actual means. Financial restriction is one of the ways that God keeps us in His will and directs our lives.
Related to this is what Paul wrote about not becoming slaves of men (1 Corinthians 7:23)---by selling oneself into indentured servitude to pay for something---because we are slaves of Jesus Christ. Our bodies and our money belong to God to do His will in this life.
I think what it comes down to is God desiring our complete devotion to Himself and not wanting us to be ensnared and distracted by the desires for things and the love of money, which can be a substitute for God, and to live for ourselves rather than for Him. (There's a difference between living for oneself first and obeying God to avoid sin while doing so, and living for God first and obeying God to do His perfect will, to please Him.)
Look at what happened to the Laodiceans. And a Christian doesn't necessarily have to be rich for that to happen.
Where your treasure is, your heart will be also, and if our hearts are set on having what the world has---because we think that God wants us to have those things ("The American Dream" for example)---rather than on doing whatever the Lord's will is for us and having only whatever He decides is necessary to do that, we will have a different (and poorer) faith walk than we would if we had the opposite focus. The American Dream is not from God; it's an invention of the men of this world, and no guarantee for a Christian.
I think this is probably something that a lot of Christians need to reconsider: Whether they have what they have and live as they live because it is really what God wants for them according to His will (and the commands of the New Testament are a good place to start), or because it's what they want and they believe God wants the same thing for them that they want for themselves.
I don't claim to be an expert on this subject, but I do know that "Owe no one anything" (Romans 13:8) really means what it says---not to go into debt. When that passage goes on to describe the commandments of the law that are fulfilled by love, not going into debt is not included in that teaching. Romans 13:8-10 can be read this way:
Owe no one anything (This is the end of the command about debt),
except to love each other... (Now he is going on to the subject of love, and explaining how the commands written in the law are fulfilled by "love your neighbor as yourself"---a different subject from owing no one anything.)
Paying rent or purchasing things or paying taxes is not debt. That is covered by "pay to all what is owed to them" Romans (13:7). If you pay your rent on time, you have paid everything that you owe the landlord. You are not in debt to him; you are paying for a service. Likewise with paying monthly bills---like gas and electric---or paying for groceries, or paying taxes. You're only in debt if you don't pay on time.
But in the case of car loans and home loans and credit cards, those come with interest, for one thing, and they are payments on something you owe the bank, which the bank "bought" for you because you couldn't afford it and you are paying them back for, like an indentured servant (a "slave"). The bank is making money off of the person it loans to (you're actually paying more for what you purchased with a loan than you would have if you had actually bought it with money you had). And you have not paid everything that you owe when you make payments on the loan, as in the case of taxes or rent or monthly utility bills: You actually owe the balance of your purchase, not just the monthly payment on your loan, with interest. And if you can't pay, the bank takes your car or your home and repossesses your possessions. You are enslaved to the bank, in truth, and don't actually own what you own; the bank does. You're giving the Lord's money to the bank to pay for things that you don't need, instead of using it for whatever He wants it to be used for and being content to live within your actual God-given means.
Maybe a better way to look at this would be to ask yourself why you think God wants you to go into voluntary debt for anything? My guess is that you think He doesn't mind you doing so, or you believe that He wants you to have what you have and live as you live with debt. (I don't know what you do personally, I'm just speaking in general.)
If we have the mentality (and I'm speaking in general here again) that what we want or what other people have should be or is what God wants---and we're also not careful to consult and study the teachings of the New Testament with regard to things we are trying to make decisions about---and we're not sincere about knowing and doing whatever God's will actually is for us, no matter what the cost to us is, and praying for Him to guide us according to the same, we will most likely find support for whatever we want to do in His word. We might get to have or keep what we want, but we'll lose out spiritually in some way, and also won't be living according to the perfect and pleasing will of God in that way.
Also, none of us has perfect faith about everything. So long as we are doing what we know God's will to be to the best of our knowledge, He will continue to give us more understanding of the same. The conflict arises when He reveals something to us that costs us something that we have, or requires us to do something that we haven't been doing or to give up doing something that we have been doing believing that it was His will or acceptable to Him. This happens to all Christians. That's when we have to choose between ourselves and Him---either to go forward according to His will, or to stay where we are according to our own; and both choices have consequences.
And as far as what the Old Covenant permitted or didn't permit, when the teachings of the Old and the New conflict, the New is the final authority.
Would you be interested in reading a thoughtful examination of my viewpoint on this? It certainly isn’t just another variation of “I shall do what I want as long as it isn’t technically forbidden.” It’s a serious matter I’ve meditated on quite a bit. But, I don’t want to toss words to the wind if you are putting forth your final word on the subject. Sure, feel free.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 12, 2018 12:34:55 GMT -5
I will make a new thread in the finances section when I get home later today.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 12, 2018 13:28:56 GMT -5
I wouldn't go so far as saying that living in a house is not a need. It's the same reason people pay rent to live in one - it is a need (unless God says to go live under a bridge or in a cave, a car, or a tent, etc). Also, if someone pays cash for a house and land, they still owe taxes every year, or their property will be taken away. No one truly owns property anymore. (That's a whole different subject, though.) I live in a house (actually a condo---not my own), and it's God's will for me to be here. I'm not saying that Christians shouldn't live in houses (that they should live in tents or under bridges or wander the streets), I just meant that in some cases, for a period of time, God might not provide a Christian with shelter---that shelter may come and go, like other things, depending on God's will for an individual and his or her calling in life. Thinking that anything besides what God said He would surely provide for us is a guarantee is going beyond what God said He would do. And if that's our mentality, that God would never take away our shelter, or that His will guarantees it (or any other thing), we'll probably be inclined to try to keep something that God may actually be taking away. I think that in most cases it is God's will for Christians to have shelter, especially married Christians with families. The minimum necessities of life are food and clothing, but God generally provides His people with more than that. The thing is, our primary concern with regard to whatever we have or ask God for, should be having what we need to do His will, since that is our primary purpose on this earth as Christians---not having a certain kind of a lifestyle or having what we want (which is how the people of this world think and live). Not that we can't ask God for things that we want, or shouldn't do so, but getting things that we want for ourselves from Him shouldn't be our primary desire or pursuit. And I addressed the subject of taxes in my reply to sister Candance. If you don't pay rent, you'll be evicted. If you don't pay for your groceries, you can't take them. If you don't pay your electric bill, your electricity will be shut off. That's not the same thing as debt. That's just a matter of paying for goods and services and obeying the law. You're not enslaved to the electric company. You can choose to live without electricity; but if you want the power company to supply it to your residence, you have to pay for it every month. It's a monthly service you're paying for, like rent; and if you're paying for that service on time, you're not in debt; you're paying what you owe them, like Romans 13:7 says. Paul wasn't confused when he said in verse 7, "Pay to all what is owed to them" and then in verse 8, "Owe no one anything": One is a case of paying for goods and services and obeying the law, and the other is debt.
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Post by Abby-Joy on Sept 12, 2018 13:35:33 GMT -5
I wouldn't go so far as saying that living in a house is not a need. It's the same reason people pay rent to live in one - it is a need (unless God says to go live under a bridge or in a cave, a car, or a tent, etc). Also, if someone pays cash for a house and land, they still owe taxes every year, or their property will be taken away. No one truly owns property anymore. (That's a whole different subject, though.) I live in a house (actually a condo---not my own), and it's God's will for me to be here. I'm not saying that Christians shouldn't live in houses (that they should live in tents or under bridges or wander the streets), I just meant that in some cases, for a period of time, God might not provide a Christian with shelter---that shelter may come and go, like other things, depending on God's will for an individual and his or her calling in life. Thinking that anything besides what God said He would surely provide for us is a guarantee is going beyond what God said He would do. And if that's our mentality, that God would never take away our shelter, or that His will guarantees it (or any other thing), we'll probably be inclined to try to keep something that God may actually be taking away. I think that in most cases it is God's will for Christians to have shelter, especially married Christians with families. The minimum necessities of life are food and clothing, but God generally provides His people with more than that. The thing is, our primary concern with regard to whatever we have or ask God for, should be having what we need to do His will, since that is our primary purpose on this earth as Christians---not having a certain kind of a lifestyle or having what we want (which is how the people of this world think and live). Not that we can't ask God for things that we want, or shouldn't do so, but getting things that we want for ourselves from Him shouldn't be our primary desire or pursuit. And I addressed the subject of taxes in my reply to sister Candance. If you don't pay rent, you'll be evicted. If you don't pay for your groceries, you can't take them. If you don't pay your electric bill, your electricity will be shut off. That's not the same thing as debt. That's just a matter of paying for goods and services and obeying the law. You're not enslaved to the electric company. You can choose to live without electricity; but if you want the power company to supply it to your residence, you have to pay for it every month. It's a monthly service you're paying for, like rent; and if you're paying for that service on time, you're not in debt; you're paying what you owe them, like Romans 13:7 says. Paul wasn't confused when he said in verse 7, "Pay to all what is owed to them" and then in verse 8, "Owe no one anything": One is a case of paying for goods and services and obeying the law, and the other is debt. Most utilities are paid for after you use them for a month, so in a way, that also would be a debt since you owe for something you already used (like borrowing and paying back). You pay an initial deposit, but then what you use for the month is billed at the end of the month. In that way, you do technically "owe" a debt. One could go off the grid, and not have electricity or have an alternative power source like solar. But you'd be hard pressed to find a rental like that. (Just thinking of all the possible different scenarios.)
The same goes for phone, internet, water, etc ... all are usually paid for after we use them.
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