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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 16:28:09 GMT -5
I can't go beyond what the Scriptures teach to condemn or forbid something outright that they don't condemn or forbid outright because people believe that thing is wrong and unacceptable, any more than I can go beyond the Scriptures to approve something that they do condemn or forbid because people believe that thing is right or acceptable. I can't apply or extend the teachings about a certain thing to something they don't actually or necessarily include or pertain to just because other people have a strong personal conviction about that particular thing and believe that it's a sin---or that it's right. While it grieves my heart greatly to know that a brother or sister may be grieved because they believe that I am promoting or approving sin, I can't go against my own conscience toward God to please theirs when it comes to doctrine. This has never been my practice, and it never will be. We should be extremely cautious about sin, but at the same time, we shouldn't make black and white issues that are not black and white according to Scripture, based on our own personal convictions or feelings about a thing, and impose those convictions on others. Those sorts of things have to be dealt with according to what the New Testament teaches about disputable matters of personal faith, by each individual. Sister Lights...this isn't a disputable matter....it's just one that is not discussed in the bible quite as directly as other issues. But it is certainly there. I hope you'll please consider these scriptures prayerfully and think about what they are saying: 1Co 7:9
But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.Now, what do we think this means......"if they cannot contain".....? And....it is better to marry than to " burn".....? There is no instruction here or anywhere to remedy burning and the inability to contain through masturbation....and see how the instruction is to remedy the problem through MARRIAGE in order to AVOID SIN. 1Th 4:4
That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honourWhat do we think this means…...to " possess one's vessel in sanctification and honour"...? If someone is masturbating then by definition they are not keeping in possession of their body......they are not containing.....they are not exercising self-control but giving in to their flesh. Sorry but masturbating is actually a perversion just like any other sexual act outside of marriage. It is fornicating with oneSELF. And it is bondage…..it’s habit-forming and like any sin it can have consequences. I sincerely encourage you to lay this before the Lord, be willing to obey His will......and ask Him to help you understand. Deliberately remaining single is for those who have grace to remain single….in other words it is up to the will of God, who gives grace/gifts as He wills. (Though I believe anyone can ask for that grace/gift if they have a desire for that kind of devotion to the Lord, coming from pure untainted motives…..just as we can ask for any gift.)
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 14, 2018 16:28:30 GMT -5
Well the lights . see it for what it is . And I want you to ponder deeply what gets said next . You came on bashing the all get out of tongues in this day and age , Yet defend that . Sister all I was trying to do was help you see something . But you trenched into you just cant be wrong . even though you constantly try and affirm us all you don't have that attitude . SISTER , LUST IS SIN , but not all tongues are evil . You got this backwards and big time . Remember what letters said . HE PRAYED TO GOD about it , AND THE LORD TOOK that evil lust from him . EVER THOUGHT for even a bit , YOU MIGHT DO THE SAME instead of justifying it . You in way more danger than you realize . And to be honest most folks would rather close an eye to this , and maybe squeak squint at it with the other eye . But if I the only one sounding the danger both in private and in public to you , might be a bit harder for you to see it . Sister I am so feared for you . If even an angel appeared and revealed this danger to you , you wont hear it . DO two things , YOU CEASE that act ASAP and never once justify it again . No, brother, I know what I said and what I meant on that thread, and also what I did NOT say and did NOT mean on that thread. I have no control over how people take what I say; I do my best to explain what I mean clearly and to provide the Scripture for what I say. You could have re-read what I shared on that thread if it hadn't been deleted.
I also did not say that all tongues were evil (you are accusing me of something that I did not say). What I criticized and condemned concerning tongues was clearly stated (although it seems that most of the members here are determined to overlook that fact in their offense), and it was not all tongues, and I gave very clear explanations for my stance on the subject, with Scripture, both privately and publicly.
Nor did I in anyway justify or encourage lust or sexual immorality of any kind on the other thread in question. The other member said he was LUSTING in his heart (after someone), and I told him it was sin and that he should ask the Lord for grace to overcome his lust. I also told him that he should NOT do anything that was a sin for him in his own conscience toward the Lord.
It's too bad the thread about that subject was deleted (apparently), so that you, and the others, can't go back and carefully re-read what I said, brother, so that you wouldn't go on misrepresenting what I said, and thinking that I am---and accusing me of---promoting or excusing sexual immorality (which is an extremely serious accusation, and an extremely serious sin.)
You may have strong feelings about this, brother, but you can't misrepresent what people say and condemn them for it, or impose your interpretation of Scripture in an indefinite and disputable matter and your personal conviction about it on me or anyone else. We're not talking about something that is clearly spelled out and condemned in the Scriptures; that was discussed on the thread in question, where I explained exactly what I meant, with Scripture. Now if you, or anyone else, wanted to discuss Scripture with me about that subject because you believed I was in error, you probably shouldn't have deleted the thread.
However I do believe that enough was said about it by all parties for everyone to understand each others' position on it, and I personally don't think the topic should be re-opened, since it will most likely only result in repetitive comments and quarreling. If what I said on that thread and to you in private wasn't understood, there's no point in starting a thread on it. It is a disputable matter of personal faith that every person has to make a decision about with prayer and conscience toward God. It may be acceptable for one person and sin for another.
My stance on that subject---like my stance on tongues---has absolutely nothing to do with my being stubborn, or with my wanting to indulge---or for others to indulge---in some sinful desire and using Scripture to justify it (which I do not do about anything, ever), and has everything to do with what Scripture's teach and do not teach and with personal conviction; not from a desire to please myself, but from a desire to do what is pleasing to God, as with everything I do and do not do, and for others to do the same by faith. Whether you or anyone else believes that, God knows the truth, and I have to be content with His judgment of me---even if that means that you and everyone else think I'm Jezebel for not going against my own conscience in a disputable matter to please yours. (Please re-read my previous comment on this thread.)
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 14, 2018 16:35:41 GMT -5
The other member said he was LUSTING in his heart (after someone), and I told him it was sin and that he should ask the Lord for grace to overcome his lust. I also told him that he should NOT do anything that was a sin for him in his own conscience toward the Lord. When did I say I was lusting after someone in my heart?! I remember I suggested I have need of someone, have need of someone.
Additionally, are all lust evil?!
Cannot someone think of another without being impure and offend his or her conscience?!
"To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled." - Titus 1:15
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 14, 2018 16:48:34 GMT -5
The other member said he was LUSTING in his heart (after someone), and I told him it was sin and that he should ask the Lord for grace to overcome his lust. I also told him that he should NOT do anything that was a sin for him in his own conscience toward the Lord. When did I say I was lusting after someone in my heart?! I remember I suggested I have need of someone, have need of someone.
Additionally, are all lust evil?!
Cannot someone think of another without being impure and offend his or her conscience?!
"To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled." - Titus 1:15Only you know whether your own thoughts were pure or impure brother. I can't see your heart. You used the word lust, which I understood to mean sexual desire for another person, which is generally what people mean when they use that word. That thread was deleted, so there's no way of going back to see what was said on it, unfortunately.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 14, 2018 16:57:02 GMT -5
Only you know whether your own thoughts were pure or impure brother. I can't see your heart. You used the word lust, which I understood to mean sexual desire for another person, which is generally what people mean when they use that word. That thread was deleted, so there's no way of going back to see what was said on it, unfortunately. Sorry, no. I did not use this word as far as I can remember.
I remember I used the word burn, as it was present in the context I have quoted. And I explained what I understood by burning.
And no, I have little to no sexual desire for another person. Obviously, I must be watchful about what I think or do.
I believe we need to be more serious when it comes to purifying our hearts.
"...Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:3
"...and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." - Acts 15:9
"And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." - 1 John 3:3
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 14, 2018 17:47:47 GMT -5
There might be some conflation here between "I wish I had a wife to be my companion" and "I'm having impure thoughts about that girl over there." These two things are not the same. Also, sometimes a thought appears in our minds without us wanting it there, and we have to suppress it. I don't think it's a sin to struggle with unwanted thoughts. But, over time, with lots of prayer and introspection, obsessive unwanted thoughts can stop. I know a little about this myself (in certain areas).
This is the thread that keeps on giving!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 18:13:25 GMT -5
There might be some conflation here between "I wish I had a wife to be my companion" and "I'm having impure thoughts about that girl over there." These two things are not the same. Also, sometimes a thought appears in our minds without us wanting it there, and we have to suppress it. I don't think it's a sin to struggle with unwanted thoughts. But, over time, with lots of prayer and introspection, obsessive unwanted thoughts can stop. I know a little about this myself (in certain areas). This is the thread that keeps on giving! Amen...I think that did get confused. My understanding of Letters was that he was very much desiring companionship, not physically lusting.
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Post by John on Sept 14, 2018 19:04:13 GMT -5
I have zero doubt it was God's will I get that house with a mortgage. Rent was not an option for many reasons, including the fact I had cats. This wasn't God allowing it. This was God's will. I stand by what I said.
There's no way of knowing whether He would have provided you with a rental arrangement that was suited to your needs in His time. I can only stand on what I know about Romans 13:8, which is that it teaches that Christians should not go into debt---which includes mortgages, car payments, student loans, credit cards, etc. It really doesn't matter what Christians have done about those things and what has happened to them as a result. They still violated this teaching to have it, do it, or become it. God allowed it, but it wasn't His perfect will. So it is with many things that Christians do. Suppose we used the example of divorce. A man believes that it is God's will for him to divorce his current wife because they don't get along, and to marry a different woman who is better suited to him. His argument is that he can serve the Lord better with a supportive wife who loves the Lord than with his present spouse who stresses him out and distracts his mind from his spiritual pursuits. You point out to him from the Scriptures that it wouldn't be God's will for him to do this, but he is convinced that the Lord brought that other woman into his life to bless him and that his current marriage was a mistake. Relying on his "faith", he forges ahead with the divorce, and he and his new wife have a wonderful, happy life together, with a bunch of kids who all grow up to be Christians and to do great things, and the man and woman have some kind of successful Christian ministry that blesses many people. (Yes, there are some health issues and other crises now and then, but what Christian's life doesn't have those things?) So clearly, God blessed the man for his actions, and used it for good. It must have been His will after all. I don't tell the man he is wrong to divorce his wife because it simply isn't God's will or his best. I tell him not to divorce his wife and marry another because if he does that and fornication wasn't involved, it is adultery. There is a huge difference between that, and what it says in Romans 13:8. If there was ever an example of straining at a gnat, the way you are using it would be this. Let's examine it. I have read this verse many times over, and never used it to show that a person is wrong to have any debt. It makes the point we need to love one another. That was the main point. Had you not used it here to say we shouldn't have any debt, it wouldn't have even occurred to me to use it like that.
"Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth one another hath fulfilled the law."
You are seriously going to take that verse and try to compare it to a man feeling like it is God's will that he commit adultery by divorcing his wife and marrying another woman? To me, that is utterly absurd! We need to use some basic common sense and wisdom. What kind of sense does it make to rent a place that would cost at least $875 per month, where you will never have the payment come to an end, and could lose it if you lost your job and couldn't pay the rent? It makes far more sense to get a mortgage with insurance that states that if you get too sick to work or lose your job, it will make your payments till you get a new job, and if you die, the home is paid off. Yes, you can get that included in the loan, and I did. In 10 years, I owed nothing and owned my home. I have been debt free for 10 years, except for the use of credit cards for convenience that I could pay off with money I have. How would I have been less a slave to the landlord than the place that held my mortgage? I had far more security the way I went. I wouldn't have wanted to see if I could find a place to rent when I could purchase my own home at a payment that low.
You may think it makes sense to live in a tent or a car or under a bridge rather than get a loan based on a verse that isn't really focusing on debt but love, but it makes zero sense to me, and I would never advise anyone to do that.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 14, 2018 19:24:03 GMT -5
There's no way of knowing whether He would have provided you with a rental arrangement that was suited to your needs in His time. I can only stand on what I know about Romans 13:8, which is that it teaches that Christians should not go into debt---which includes mortgages, car payments, student loans, credit cards, etc. It really doesn't matter what Christians have done about those things and what has happened to them as a result. They still violated this teaching to have it, do it, or become it. God allowed it, but it wasn't His perfect will. So it is with many things that Christians do. Suppose we used the example of divorce. A man believes that it is God's will for him to divorce his current wife because they don't get along, and to marry a different woman who is better suited to him. His argument is that he can serve the Lord better with a supportive wife who loves the Lord than with his present spouse who stresses him out and distracts his mind from his spiritual pursuits. You point out to him from the Scriptures that it wouldn't be God's will for him to do this, but he is convinced that the Lord brought that other woman into his life to bless him and that his current marriage was a mistake. Relying on his "faith", he forges ahead with the divorce, and he and his new wife have a wonderful, happy life together, with a bunch of kids who all grow up to be Christians and to do great things, and the man and woman have some kind of successful Christian ministry that blesses many people. (Yes, there are some health issues and other crises now and then, but what Christian's life doesn't have those things?) So clearly, God blessed the man for his actions, and used it for good. It must have been His will after all. I don't tell the man he is wrong to divorce his wife because it simply isn't God's will or his best. I tell him not to divorce his wife and marry another because if he does that and fornication wasn't involved, it is adultery. There is a huge difference between that, and what it says in Romans 13:8. If there was ever an example of straining at a gnat, the way you are using it would be this. Let's examine it. I have read this verse many times over, and never used it to show that a person is wrong to have any debt. It makes the point we need to love one another. That was the main point. Had you not used it here to say we shouldn't have any debt, it wouldn't have even occurred to me to use it like that.
"Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth one another hath fulfilled the law."
You are seriously going to take that verse and try to compare it to a man feeling like it is God's will that he commit adultery by divorcing his wife and marrying another woman? To me, that is utterly absurd! We need to use some basic common sense and wisdom. What kind of sense does it make to rent a place that would cost at least $875 per month, where you will never have the payment come to an end, and could lose it if you lost your job and couldn't pay the rent? It makes far more sense to get a mortgage with insurance that states that if you get too sick to work or lose your job, it will make your payments till you get a new job, and if you die, the home is paid off. Yes, you can get that included in the loan, and I did. In 10 years, I owed nothing and owned my home. I have been debt free for 10 years, except for the use of credit cards for convenience that I could pay off with money I have. How would I have been less a slave to the landlord than the place that held my mortgage? I had far more security the way I went. I wouldn't have wanted to see if I could find a place to rent when I could purchase my own home at a payment that low.
You may think it makes sense to live in a tent or a car or under a bridge rather than get a loan based on a verse that isn't really focusing on debt but love, but it makes zero sense to me, and I would never advise anyone to do that.
I used divorce as an extreme example to make a point in principle only because I knew that it was something that wouldn't be disputed, not because I was comparing the seriousness of divorce to a Christian being in debt. I also read this post carefully (I get the impression sometimes that people think I don't actually read what they post, which is not the case). I'm very glad that you are debt free, although I don't believe that the credit cards are a good thing. Having read your post carefully, I think I've already addressed what you wrote about in response to other members on this thread concerning the subject of debt, and about Romans 13:8 specifically; so rather than repeating it, I'm going to recommend that you read those posts, and also visit the Finance forum to see what I discussed with Watchful and PG4Him there on the thread about owing. (I really have said all that I have to say about that subject, and don't think it's necessary to repeat myself again and again. I hope you understand.)
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 14, 2018 19:48:59 GMT -5
Only you know whether your own thoughts were pure or impure brother. I can't see your heart. You used the word lust, which I understood to mean sexual desire for another person, which is generally what people mean when they use that word. That thread was deleted, so there's no way of going back to see what was said on it, unfortunately. Sorry, no. I did not use this word as far as I can remember.
I remember I used the word burn, as it was present in the context I have quoted. And I explained what I understood by burning.
And no, I have little to no sexual desire for another person. Obviously, I must be watchful about what I think or do.
I believe we need to be more serious when it comes to purifying our hearts.
"...Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:3
"...and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." - Acts 15:9
"And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." - 1 John 3:3
Blessings in Jesus' name!We have no way of verifying what anyone said on that thread now that it is deleted, and I'm not going to argue over what word you used or didn't use. But I'm glad to know that you are not lusting after anyone. I also agree with PG4Him that sometimes we have thoughts that we do not want, and we have to ask the Lord to help us to put them to death. There's a difference between those occasional unwanted impure thoughts that arise, which we put to death, and entertaining lustful thoughts in one's mind. Everyone has unwanted thoughts about various things (not necessarily sexual in nature) from time to time, or attitudes. I don't believe that merely ever having them is a sin---although they do come from our sinful nature, if not from demons---but entertaining them rather than putting them to death is. It's not a one-time deal, that a Christian puts all sinful thoughts to death at his or her conversion and never has another one his or her whole life. It's what we do when they arise that determines whether we sin or not---whether we dwell on them and follow them, or resist them and put them to death by God's grace.
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Post by John on Sept 14, 2018 21:28:42 GMT -5
The thread is supposed to be about what faith is, not rehashing threads that were removed. The two main verses used against debt were Romans 13:7,8.
"Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Owe no man anything, but to love one another; for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law."
tlsitd, how do you interpret the entirety of the two verses? I was discussing this with my wife, and she doesn't think it has anything to do with personal debt, but is about our responsibility to institutions. I find it strange that it goes from paying tribute to four words telling us not to have any debt and then saying to love one another. You said that you would go so far as to saying that it would be better to be homeless than to be in debt, and just trust the Lord, based on those two verses. As such, I would like to know how you interpret them as a whole.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 15, 2018 5:11:39 GMT -5
The thread is supposed to be about what faith is, not rehashing threads that were removed. The two main verses used against debt were Romans 13:7,8.
"Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Owe no man anything, but to love one another; for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law."
tlsitd, how do you interpret the entirety of the two verses? I was discussing this with my wife, and she doesn't think it has anything to do with personal debt, but is about our responsibility to institutions. I find it strange that it goes from paying tribute to four words telling us not to have any debt and then saying to love one another. You said that you would go so far as to saying that it would be better to be homeless than to be in debt, and just trust the Lord, based on those two verses. As such, I would like to know how you interpret them as a whole.
I answered this question on previous posts on this thread. I believe I was responding to Watchful, or to PG4Him, if you'll go back and look for them. Also on PG4Him's thread on owing in the Finance forum.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 15, 2018 7:15:26 GMT -5
Though I believe anyone can ask for that grace/gift if they have a desire for that kind of devotion to the Lord, coming from pure untainted motives…..just as we can ask for any gift. I believe anyone can receive that.
The problem is that the person needs to break unbelief, they must believe it can be achieved.
"...With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." - Matthew 19:26
And another barrier to be broken is that the person must acknowledge it is not the ideal.
Seriously, giving up to masturbation is a weakness; the person has little to no control, and they surrender to the flesh.
"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." - Romans 12:21
"...All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." - 1 Corinthians 6:12
There is no real need for masturbating. People who invent excuses are just deceiving themselves.
It is much better to live without doing it. And I can tell this by experience.
Now, the possibility is there. But one must have the faith to claim it.
And no, this has nothing to do with word of faith movement. You have a real need, and you need faith anyway.
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." - Matthew 7:7
"But without faith it is impossible to please Him..." - Hebrews 11:6
And I believe that sex is not the only reason for marriage. Seriously, are people marrying just to have sex?!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 8:17:31 GMT -5
<< And I believe that sex is not the only reason for marriage. Seriously, are people marrying just to have sex?! >>
Hope not brother, that would be crass and selfish. Maybe I didn't bring it across very well earlier, but I think the point is that not all have a gift to remain single, it is not their calling from God to remain single, so if they cannot contain then it means they don't have that gift of singleness and they should seek to marry.
It's possible for there to be sinful lust within marriage, but God did not give woman to man to use like a prostitute, or vice versa. But here the Lord gives us a glimpse of what marital intimacy should be:
Hosea 3:1 The LORD said to me, “Go, show your LOVE to your wife again...."
And all that the bible teaches about what love is and isn't...which also applies to the marriage bed:
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
A husband and wife have needs, but how I read the scriptures is that they show how God intends that it should be kept in the context of love, and as a way of expressing and cementing the love relationship between a husband and wife, not in a way of selfish lust and lasciviousness.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 15, 2018 9:22:48 GMT -5
The name-and-claim mistake in faith doesn't just go in one direction. It isn't always about money, ambition, etc. Misguided Christians can just as easily name-and-claim a lifestyle of poverty, bondage, loneliness, etc which God might not will for them.
If God has put a proper, healthy desire in a person which doesn't go away with prayer and fasting, doesn't seem to lessen over time, and would obviously help him be more fruitful in ministry, he should probably take it as a message that God wills it for his life. It isn't wise to double down on a life of false piety when God isn't giving grace to be happy that way. This is part of how God shows us His will. Yes we all sacrifice for the Kingdom, but if you "sacrifice" to the point that you're miserable, alone, fruitless, powerless, and unable to relate to others, there is a problem.
Paul built numerous churches in various cities. He closely mentored future pastors. He was too busy for marriage, and he didn't seem to feel sad about it. That's what life should be like for a man called to celibacy. He is "married" to a very fruitful ministry. A man in this situation will know he doesn't want a wife. If Paul's calling is not placed on a man, he cannot name-and-claim that he doesn't want to marry.
A great supply of faith is actually needed to move ahead into a new life when God calls you to go. He tells you to start a business and He will send the customers; you're terrified, but you do it, and He provides. He tells you to buy a house and He will provide for it as His own property; you're terrified, but you do it, and He pays the bills. He tells you to find a wife because you're called to raise righteous children in a wicked world; you're terrified, but you get married. Living alone in a tent to prove your piety is not the best definition of faith.
So no, a man should not marry the first girl who says yes in order to have sex -- and Paul's words didn't say that. If a man cannot seem to be happy alone, and the burning won't stop no matter how much he tries, then he should patiently look for a virtuous woman he can love.
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