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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 12, 2018 19:22:38 GMT -5
This is a very common misconception I will have to refute once and for all.
In this post, to speak with tongues means to speak in an unknown language, as is commonly known. For more information on to speak with tongues, read this post.
It is very, very common to hear in many churches and from many people that one must speak with tongues if they received the Holy Spirit.
Yes, I have seen even the most reputable preachers telling this.
Now, just because of this it does not mean they are always right in all they say.
"Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar..." - Romans 3:4
No one, no matter how high their calling in Christ is; no one is error proof.
"But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren." - Matthew 23:8
And I have investigated this matter for some time until I finally found the definite answer.
Not all people who are baptized with the Holy Spirit will speak with tongues.
If such thing was true, then the Lord would make it very clear in Scriptures telling about it.
The problem is that some people focus too much on speaking with tongues that they forget the most important.
"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." - 1 John 2:3
"By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit." - 1 John 4:13
"I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." - Galatians 5:16
"that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." - Romans 8:4
"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:10
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." - Matthew 7:21
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another." - John 13:34
"But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him." - 1 Corinthians 8:3
"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." - 1 John 4:8
"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him." - 1 John 2:15
Where is the discernment?
Now, I will explain why I believe that not all people who is baptized with the Holy Spirit will speak with tongues.
This is very, very important because those who do not have the Spirit of Christ is not His:
"...if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." - Romans 8:9
Yes, anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ is not His. And how do we discern if someone has the Spirit of Christ in them?!
"You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?" - Matthew 7:16
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." - James 2:26
"Therefore by their fruits you will know them." - Matthew 7:20
Then, speaking with tongues is not the ultimate sign someone has been baptized with the Holy Spirit.
The most important sign someone has the Spirit of Christ in them is:
"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." - Romans 8:10
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." - Romans 8:9
"Jesus answered them, Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 8:34-36
This is the effect when the person receives the Spirit of Christ. Speaking with tongues is not mandatory at all.
I do not know why they force speaking with tongues so much, to the point of doubting ones salvation.
Other signs that you have the Spirit of Christ is that you have no doubt that Christ is in you.
"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God..." - Romans 8:16
Then if you still have doubts about this, ask the Lord for a confirmation and He will give it to you.
After being so worried about it, I decided to do this and I have received a confirmation.
And in the moment of that confirmation I have felt so much assurance of that confirmation it completely killed all doubts I had.
And no, I did not speak with tongues. But I received faith, the confirmation that Christ is in me (in addition to the other signs).
And yes, I have asked the Lord to receive His Spirit, as it is written:
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" - Luke 11:13
I remember that when I was still fighting my sins, I felt a strong desire to ask for the Holy Spirit.
Then I tought, I must ask, I want to forsake my sins, I want to be His... I want to make sure I have His Spirit in me.
Then I have asked with so much faith, without any doubt.
"But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;" - James 1:6-7
Obviously, after that I kept asking, and asking... Then at some day, if I remember correctly, I started feeling different.
"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you..." - Acts 1:8
I want to make sure His Spirit is in me.
Then I believe I have received, today I have no doubts, thanks to God.
Telling that all must speak with tongues is like saying that all must cast out demons, perform miracles, prophesy, have faith to move mountains, and interpret tongues.
And obviously, not all will prophesy, not all will have the faith to move mountains, and not all will interpret.
"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the best gifts..." - 1 Corinthians 12:29-31
"I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied..." - 1 Corinthians 14:5
"for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets..." - 1 Corinthians 14:5
Then another flaw we see is that we see so many people encouraging others to speak with tongues.
They definitely could encourage people to prophesy, right?!
"for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets..." - 1 Corinthians 14:5
"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church." - 1 Corinthians 14:4
This proves they are not always right.
"Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar..." - Romans 3:4
May the Lord bless you abundantly!
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Post by Sister on Sept 12, 2018 21:28:38 GMT -5
I attended a Pentecostal church for the first time when I was 18. On that first visit, I felt convicted and went out to the the front and said the sinners prayer with one of the elders. I attended that church (not the bible study classes) for 6 months. They kept praying for me to receive tongues and I never received. I wanted it with all my heart and God would not give it to me. I felt rejected, like an outcast, especially seeing people walk in for the first time, get saved and start speaking tongues straight away. This really bothered me, because the Lord knew my heart that I wanted to live for him, and yet he held this back from me. I went back into the scriptures and realised that tongues is only one of the gifts. We cannot demand what gift God gives us, for he will give what we need. Yes we can ask for anything, but it's his will in the end. I then gave up on that one and started praying for other gifts like knowledge and wisdom so that I could find out all truth concerning his Word, and of course I always pray for the gift of love which I think I have received according to a certain measure, but it can always be increased for love can sometimes wax cold towards those of a different spirit, so we have to be on guard to not hate, nor have vengeance but to just leave alone and pray for that soul.
One thing that really stood out for me is that the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is the "Spirit of truth". "The Comforter", is "the Spirit of Truth". It has to first be planted, then watered, before it can grow. The more truth we discover in the Word, the more measure of the Holy Spirit. Christ wants us to be filled with his "flesh". His flesh is spirit, that meat that gives nutrition to the soul - truth. Manna from heaven. This is the one I want. Where there is truth Christ is there, for he is the Word of God full of truth and light. To have truth is to have Christ, and to have Christ all the fruits can be seen because we will act different compared to the world, we will not hate, nor cause divisions, will not swear, or bear false witness, we will not fornicate or commit adultery, we will not love mammon, nor accuse one another before others. We will not mock, nor condemn or judge. We should be gentle in our speech, slow to wrath, quick to forgive, we should possess a calming spirit, and not make enemies, but win souls. Everything that comes out of our mouths comes from the heart. There is nothing hid that will not be revealed.
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Post by Sister on Sept 12, 2018 22:42:22 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
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Post by Giller on Oct 3, 2018 13:37:10 GMT -5
Act 2:4
(4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
What were these other tongues?
Act 2:11
(11) Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
They were speaking in languages they did not know, but were known languages in the world.
Were these tongues in need of interpretation?
No, for all heard in their own language what was said.
But what about unknown tongues do those exists?
1Co 14:2 (2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Here it speaks of unknown tongues to were no man understandeth him.
Now are tongues in and of themselves for all?
Act 2:38-39 (38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
What is the gift of the Holy Ghost?
Act 10:45-46 (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Here it is associating the gift of the Holy Ghost with tongues and also remember the context of Acts chapter 2, was about tongues.
And this gift which you get through the baptism of the Holy Ghost, is for all that are afar off.
How many spoke in tongues at the day of Pentecost?
120, which was all that were with the disciples.
How many were speaking in tongues in this next verse?
Act 19:4-7
(4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
(7) And all the men were about twelve.
All the 12 men that were with Paul spoke in tongues, yet no evidence of needing interpretation. And when one speaks in tongues, he can either be speaking in an unknown tongue or in an other tongue.
So then now what about our next scripture?
1Co 12:7-11
(7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
(8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
(9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
(10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
(11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
So concerning divers kinds of tongues and interpretation only some have these specific gifts.
So then is tongues for all, or only for some?
Well if the tongues need interpretation, it seems only to be for some to operate in this.
But if tongues do not need interpretation it seems to be for all, and if you have not received the gift of tongues, it does not mean you are not saved.
So could the difference be in this?
1Co 14:28 (28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
If it is to oneself and to God only, and if not it needs interpretation?
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Post by John on Oct 3, 2018 21:40:35 GMT -5
I believe that you had a true salvation experience, but I do not believe that was the baptism in the Holy Ghost. All Christians have the Spirit in measure, but not all are baptized in the Holy Spirit. This isn't something I care to make a federal case out of 2f. I believe that the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues and you do not. That is fine, as I am not someone who believes speaking in tongues is necessary to be saved. This is just a difference of opinion.
You don't need to respond to this or even tell me what happens, but let me challenge you to do this 2f. Go to the Lord and tell him that if there is more to the baptism in the Holy Ghost than you have experienced, you would like to receive all God has for you. If speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, you want to experience it. Then leave it in God's hands. I am not going to look down on you or think you are any less saved no matter whether you speak in tongues or not. This is not a salvation issue to me.
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Post by Giller on Oct 3, 2018 23:55:16 GMT -5
At salvation we have the Holy Ghost residing in us, but then there is the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
The word baptism means to be fully immersed, so therefore when you get baptized in the Holy Ghost you get fully immersed into the Holy Spirit.
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Post by Giller on Oct 4, 2018 0:07:06 GMT -5
Scripture wise, were we have to be careful, is in that we do not interpret scriptures according to our experience, or what we have experienced.
So many times you hear of someone get frustrated because they did not receive the gift of tongues, and then what happens from time to time, is that some end up reinterpreting the scriptures because of what they experienced.
Let us let the scriptures speak for themselves, and regardless to what we have experienced, let us let God's word be true anyways.
Some times God will lead someone to check out the Greek concerning this or that word, but there are times you really do not need this, to were the word of God is interpreting itself, that is another area we have to watch out for, for we have the word of God in our English language, but good dictionaries, and Greek and Hebrew concordances do help at times, when we need it, which we do need at times.
Really humbleness is the key.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Oct 4, 2018 6:07:12 GMT -5
I believe that you had a true salvation experience, but I do not believe that was the baptism in the Holy Ghost.
The Lord tells me otherwise.If speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, you want to experience it.
I would do it if I had the faith to do so. But you people just want to despise what I have experienced and my testimony.
Your post just made very, very sad. It did not shake my faith but I believe it was unnecessary.
I cannot force you people to believe in me.
Only the Lord can convince you of this, and I am fully convinced because it happened to me.
John frienduff Abby-Joy Giller
But I understand that all that goes against common popular belief is not easily accepted.
I would probably think the same if I had the same experience of yours.
But it hurt me to hear that the Lord have not baptized me because it did not happen like you have experienced.
It is like saying that someone is not truly saved because they have a different testimony.
It is just sad, very, very sad. I hope the Lord give you all understanding about this matter.
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Post by John on Oct 4, 2018 6:41:14 GMT -5
My post was necessary. It would not have been necessary if all you had done was given your testimony, but this thread is teaching a doctrinal position I believe to be false, that not all that are baptized in the Holy Ghost speak in tongues. It is that doctrine I felt I had to deal with. You tied your experience in with your doctrine, which is why I had to address it. I believe I have correct understanding on this matter, and I am defending my position, as you are defending yours. I don't believe God would have me to remain silent when I see someone teaching something wrong because it might make them sad and hurt their feelings. We are dealing with two competing doctrinal positions. You believe that not all who are baptized in the Holy Ghost speak in tongues, and I believe that all who are baptized in the Holy Ghost do speak in tongues, at least as the initial evidence. That is not a salvation issue to me. I started my own thread defending my position and you started this thread to defend your position. I am challenging your position as you have challenged mine.
The misunderstanding is over the difference between tongues as a prayer language and the gift of tongues. Not all will have the gift of tongues and interpretation, but all will be given a prayer language where the Spirit is able to pray through them in a way where they do not understand what they are saying. This is evident throughout Acts, as I already shown in the other thread.
Anyway, if you are simply wanting to come at this from your experience going forward, I don't doubt you experienced what you say happened. Why would I despise that? You are mixing experience with doctrine. Your argument is that this is the same as telling people all must prophecy, and that is not true, because we aren't speaking of the gift of tongues and interpretation, as I already explained. This is not personal. I am just dealing with a different understanding of what the Bible is teaching.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Oct 4, 2018 6:57:35 GMT -5
My post was necessary. It would not have been necessary if all you had done was given your testimony...
...I don't believe God would have me to remain silent when I see someone teaching something wrong because it might make them sad and hurt their feelings.
...this thread is teaching a doctrinal position I believe to be false, that not all that are baptized in the Holy Ghost speak in tongues...
...You believe that not all who are baptized in the Holy Ghost speak in tongues, and I believe that all who are baptized in the Holy Ghost do speak in tongues...
John frienduff Giller Cletus watchful PG4Him Abby-Joy Thus says the Lord:
Not all who are baptized with the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues.
"But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die." - Deuteronomy 18:2
"...Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written..." - Romans 3:4
"Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." - Proverbs 30:6
And I have no fear of telling this, because I know what I say is true.
Now you accept it or reject it at your own risk.
And if you want a sign, ask the Lord if what I say is true, and He will confirm to whoever wants.
Because the Lord always will confirm His words.
"Let the Lord judge between you and me..." - 1 Samuel 24:12
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign..." - Isaiah 7:14
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Post by John on Oct 4, 2018 7:14:26 GMT -5
My post was necessary. It would not have been necessary if all you had done was given your testimony...
...I don't believe God would have me to remain silent when I see someone teaching something wrong because it might make them sad and hurt their feelings.
...this thread is teaching a doctrinal position I believe to be false, that not all that are baptized in the Holy Ghost speak in tongues...
...You believe that not all who are baptized in the Holy Ghost speak in tongues, and I believe that all who are baptized in the Holy Ghost do speak in tongues...
John frienduff Giller Cletus watchful PG4Him Abby-Joy Thus says the Lord:
Not all who are baptized with the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues.
"But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die." - Deuteronomy 18:2
"...Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written..." - Romans 3:4
"Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." - Proverbs 30:6
And I have no fear of telling this, because I know what I say is true.
Now you accept it or reject it at your own risk.
And if you want a sign, ask the Lord if what I say is true, and He will confirm to whoever wants.
Because the Lord always will confirm His words.
"Let the Lord judge between you and me..." - 1 Samuel 24:12
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign..." - Isaiah 7:14 All I have to say to this is that you are now speaking as a prophet. When you do that, it had better be right. This is a very serious matter. I hope you understand the gravity of your actions. This is what I say to you. You are taking scripture out of context to create this message. There is no question about that, but that seems to be the way you have chosen to speak what you claim is a message from God. I am not changing my doctrinal positions because they make people sad, and I am not changing my doctrinal positions because someone comes as a prophet trying to scare me. It won't work! To me, scripture trumps experience and I judge all supposed words from God by scripture in context.
Think about what you posted. Is this really a word from the Lord? Prophets are judged on a higher standard than teachers. Your words must be true when you speak in the name of the Lord or you are a false prophet.
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Post by frienduff on Oct 4, 2018 7:51:38 GMT -5
Letters even while I see in scripture the intial case of the baptism was speaking in tongues , you don't see me coming on here saying THUS SAYETH the LORD . And I promise its not wise for you to do that either . No one contests your salvation . I have went against those who have said you must speak in tongues to have been saved . I don't condone that . But please do not say thus sayeth the LORD . Even in acts it says they received the Spirit , baptism , same as we had at the first , for we heard them speak in tongues . But I don't turn around and then say THUS sayeth the LORD that this means its the case every time . it probably is the case every time , but I wont say THUS Sayeth the LORD . You should not either on this . If anything we should drop this . No one thinks you unsaved . I See many folks who have spoken in tongues , yet they are not preaching nor teaching the same message you or I , or others speak concerning to follow the SPIRIT . So what does that profit them . I don't look for tongues in a person or no tongues in a person , I IDENTIFY them BY THIER FRUITS to determine WHO they follow . THIS is simply what we do . We examine their walk , their fruits , and if they also teach contrary to Christ . Not their gifts , because many false prophets have come and will come who can deceive by miralces and so on . WE simply test the FRUIT of the person .
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Post by John on Oct 4, 2018 7:56:42 GMT -5
Letters even while I see in scripture the intial case of the baptism was speaking in tongues , you don't see me coming on here saying THUS SAYETH the LORD . And I promise its not wise for you to do that either . No one contests your salvation . I have went against those who have said you must speak in tongues to have been saved . I don't condone that . But please do not say thus sayeth the LORD . Even in acts it says they received the Spirit , baptism , same as we had at the first , for we heard them speak in tongues . But I don't turn around and then say THUS sayeth the LORD that this means its the case every time . it probably is the case every time , but I wont say THUS Sayeth the LORD . You should not either on this . If anything we should drop this . No one thinks you unsaved . I See many folks who have spoken in tongues , yet they are not preaching nor teaching the same message you or I , or others speak concerning to follow the SPIRIT . So what does that profit them . I don't look for tongues in a person or no tongues in a person , I IDENTIFY them BY THIER FRUITS to determine WHO they follow . THIS is simply what we do . We examine their walk , their fruits , and if they also teach contrary to Christ . Not their gifts , because many false prophets have come and will come who can deceive by miralces and so on . WE simply test the FRUIT of the person . I don't think there is a soul here that has been judging anyone's salvation based on whether or not they speak in tongues. That goes on, but not at Narrow Way thus far.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Oct 4, 2018 8:10:49 GMT -5
Think about what you posted. Is this really a word from the Lord? ...you don't see me coming on here saying THUS SAYETH the LORD... ...And I promise its not wise for you to do that either .... ...But please do not say thus sayeth the LORD... I don't think there is a soul here that has been judging anyone's salvation based on whether or not they speak in tongues. This scripture have just been fulfilled:
"...A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house." - Mark 6:4
As I have said, the words of the Lord always is confirmed.
"For I am the Lord. I speak, and the word which I speak will come to pass..." - Ezekiel 12:25
And how many of you indeed asked a confirmation of what I have said?
"Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief." - Matthew 13:58
Because if you asked for confirmation, you would have received.
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Post by John on Oct 4, 2018 9:25:30 GMT -5
Think about what you posted. Is this really a word from the Lord? ...you don't see me coming on here saying THUS SAYETH the LORD... ...And I promise its not wise for you to do that either .... ...But please do not say thus sayeth the LORD... I don't think there is a soul here that has been judging anyone's salvation based on whether or not they speak in tongues. This scripture have just been fulfilled:
"...A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house." - Mark 6:4
As I have said, the words of the Lord always is confirmed.
"For I am the Lord. I speak, and the word which I speak will come to pass..." - Ezekiel 12:25
And how many of you indeed asked a confirmation of what I have said?
"Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief." - Matthew 13:58
Because if you asked for confirmation, you would have received. You may want to re-think that so called confirmation. This isn't your own country. That would be those where you live, not those who are in a different nation. I didn't reject you as a prophet. I was very careful in what I said. I cautioned you to make sure that if you are going to prophesy, they had better really be the words of the Lord, because prophets are held to a very high standard. What I am asking you is whether or not you are claiming that God told you to say what you did, and word for word as you did? I am not going to argue with you over this. If you tell me God told you to say that, I am still going to judge it by the Word, but I won't question your belief God is using you as a prophet. I am just warning you to be careful. You can take that warning lightly if you want to, but the only one who is going to get hurt is you should you be wrong.
I agree with Frienduff that we should probably drop this, because nobody is changing their mind and it is becoming unfruitful, but I don't want to close this and come across like I am trying to silence you and not allowing you to respond, so feel free. Just come out and tell us if you are holding to your claim that God said, "Not all who are baptized in the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues?" Is that really, "Thus says the Lord?" Before you answer, I am not trying to shame you in any way, and I don't want you to say it is to avoid looking bad. Anyone can speak presumptuously. That is not an unpardonable sin. I won't hold it against you, so think carefully.
By the way, if you really believe God told you to say that, and you believe you are a prophet, stand on it. God is the one you must give account to, not me or Frienduff. All either one of us are doing is telling you to be careful speaking in the name of the Lord.
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