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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 29, 2018 6:57:51 GMT -5
This has been a good, thought provoking thread. To me, temperance is self-control, but that is not something that comes naturally. That is not something our flesh desires.
PG4Him Cletus Giller frienduffYes, I believe it is.
Self control is not from the flesh, as the flesh works against any control or law, especially in the long term.
I believe self control is the ability to bring the flesh into subjection to the Spirit.
In this way the flesh is limited by the Spirit, and not the Spirit by the flesh.
Self control, as all others fruits of the Spirit are manifested by faith.
The more spiritually mature a Christian is, the more knowledge of truth, the more they subject themselves to the Spirit, more fruits will be manifest.
"Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:4
One can only pursue an increase of the fruits of the Spirit by walking humbly and fearing God.
Because the Spirit of the Lord will not force anyone to do something they do not want to.
"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." - Matthew 11:30
Then yes, people must seek, people must live it.
And this has nothing to do with working to be saved; and how I wish people had the desire to work for God in spirit and truth.
But if there are people who see something as working with the Spirit something evil... Well, may the Lord have mercy and open their eyes.
No one can serve two masters, or you choose to obey the Spirit or the flesh, demons, evil spirits and the like.
"And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..." - Joshua 24:15
"...But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." - Joshua 24:15
"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." - 2 Corinthians 3:17
There is nothing impossible when it comes to self control and the fruits of the Spirit, the only limiting factor is our faith.
"Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”" - Mark 9:23
And different people have a different measure of faith. And only through love one can choose to obey the Spirit of the Lord.
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." - Galatians 5:6
Blessings, blessings to you in Jesus' name!
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Post by frienduff on Sept 29, 2018 7:08:27 GMT -5
The thing is , we are to obey THE SPIRIT . And the people by that same spirit remind one another to walk in the Spirit . obey it . And the spirit that is from God , will remind us daily as we also remind others to flee even the appearance of evil. Many folks mess this up and think the warners are trying to earn salvation , WHEN IN TRUTH , its just the Spirit reminding to Be ye HOLY . As the Spirit reminds each individual daily , the same Spirit has those who are spiritual to also build up the body and remind and stir up continuously to be on guard , to flee evil , to crucify the flesh . Its why daily the bible is read as well. Those words , by the SPIRIT , remind us , exhort us daily as we also exhort one another daily lest any does become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin .
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Cletus
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Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Sept 29, 2018 7:32:54 GMT -5
Now I just knew it, sooner or later my opportunity would arise to share something that God showed me. and here it is:
First, a little reading from God's Word... Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Next, a little digging down... Notice in verse 16 and 25 the word "walk" is present. in english these words appear to be and say the same thing, however, once we start running a shovel we find that these english words walk... they aint the same in the greek.
In verse 16 the word walk is this: G4043 περιπατέω peripateō per-ee-pat-eh'-o From G4012 and G3961; to tread all around, that is, walk at large (especially as proof of ability); figuratively to live, deport oneself, follow (as a companion or votary): - go, be occupied with, walk (about). Total KJV occurrences: 96 What is implied here is the context previous to these verses... LIBERTY. And now for the word "walk" in verse 25 in the greek... G4748 στοιχέω stoicheō stoy-kheh'-o From a derivative of στείχω steichō̄ (to range in regular line); to march in (military) rank (keep step), that is, (figuratively) to conform to virtue and piety: - walk (orderly). Total KJV occurrences: 5 This walk means to march orderly.
Now how do we approach this self control... How do we obtain it? if there be no good thing in the flesh? 2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. the words "sound mind" hold more meaning that the english would project thru reading.... G4995 σωφρονισμός sōphronismos so-fron-is-mos' From G4994; discipline, that is, self control: - sound mind. Total KJV occurrences: 1 Only used one time in the KJV? wow. this made me do a little more shoveling and what I found is that the Strongs definition is a little on the weak side. this word broken down is sos... or safe, and phren... or the mind... thus safe thinking, but this word also denotes good judgment, disciplined thought patterns, and its what gives us the ability to make right decisions. it does indeed include qualities of self control and self discipline. therefore, we can only obtain or even approach the fruit by what God gives us to start with. We need more Spirit in us... we need to be filled and overflowing. we can do nothing by ourselves, but if we *ABIDE* (flashback to another post) in Him then he abides in us... we cannot bear fruit on our own. If we remain in Him then His words remain in us. its the little things... the thoughts that we CHOOSE to keep clean before they drop down into our heart. the scripture does not say in vain to think on these things... The Book says if a man looks at a woman lustfully he has committed adultery in his heart. this is spiritual adultery... its cheating on God... its idolatry. and The Book does say little children keep yourself from idols. If we keep our minds stayed on Jesus Christ, If we pray.. literally pray our hearts out... then we will be walking in the spirit, we will be doing those little things. and we will be giving no place for the lusts of the flesh to dwell. its a war between flesh and spirit. it will wear you out, but what I have found is if you are worn out... you are not doing your part... you are not giving enough to The Spirit and giving to much to the flesh. there is an old native american saying about inside you there is two wolves... which one will you feed. not exactly parallel to scripture but i think the meaning behind it is worth mentioning for a point. flesh vs. spirit. I have said this many times and I have even seen since I have posted this on the internet people have copy/quoted it and its so true. Life is a paradoxical dichotomy wrapped in an enigma. I just want to end this post by saying God is good. He gives us what we need. and He is always there and ready to give it, as long as we are not doing whats wicked in His eyes. The Book says... Its His good pleasure to give us the kingdom.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 29, 2018 7:46:50 GMT -5
Now I just knew it, sooner or later my opportunity would arise to share something that God showed me. and here it is: First, a little reading from God's Word... Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Next, a little digging down... Notice in verse 16 and 25 the word "walk" is present. in english these words appear to be and say the same thing, however, once we start running a shovel we find that these english words walk... they aint the same in the greek. In verse 16 the word walk is this: G4043 περιπατέω peripateō per-ee-pat-eh'-o From G4012 and G3961; to tread all around, that is, walk at large (especially as proof of ability); figuratively to live, deport oneself, follow (as a companion or votary): - go, be occupied with, walk (about). Total KJV occurrences: 96 What is implied here is the context previous to these verses... LIBERTY. And now for the word "walk" in verse 25 in the greek... G4748 στοιχέω stoicheō stoy-kheh'-o From a derivative of στείχω steichō̄ (to range in regular line); to march in (military) rank (keep step), that is, (figuratively) to conform to virtue and piety: - walk (orderly). Total KJV occurrences: 5 This walk means to march orderly. Now how do we approach this self control... How do we obtain it? if there be no good thing in the flesh? 2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. the words "sound mind" hold more meaning that the english would project thru reading.... G4995 σωφρονισμός sōphronismos so-fron-is-mos' From G4994; discipline, that is, self control: - sound mind. Total KJV occurrences: 1 Only used one time in the KJV? wow. this made me do a little more shoveling and what I found is that the Strongs definition is a little on the weak side. this word broken down is sos... or safe, and phren... or the mind... thus safe thinking, but this word also denotes good judgment, disciplined thought patterns, and its what gives us the ability to make right decisions. it does indeed include qualities of self control and self discipline. therefore, we can only obtain or even approach the fruit by what God gives us to start with. We need more Spirit in us... we need to be filled and overflowing. we can do nothing by ourselves, but if we *ABIDE* (flashback to another post) in Him then he abides in us... we cannot bear fruit on our own. If we remain in Him then His words remain in us. its the little things... the thoughts that we CHOOSE to keep clean before they drop down into our heart. the scripture does not say in vain to think on these things... The Book says if a man looks at a woman lustfully he has committed adultery in his heart. this is spiritual adultery... its cheating on God... its idolatry. and The Book does say little children keep yourself from idols. If we keep our minds stayed on Jesus Christ, If we pray.. literally pray our hearts out... then we will be walking in the spirit, we will be doing those little things. and we will be giving no place for the lusts of the flesh to dwell. its a war between flesh and spirit. it will wear you out, but what I have found is if you are worn out... you are not doing your part... you are not giving enough to The Spirit and giving to much to the flesh. there is an old native american saying about inside you there is two wolves... which one will you feed. not exactly parallel to scripture but i think the meaning behind it is worth mentioning for a point. flesh vs. spirit. I have said this many times and I have even seen since I have posted this on the internet people have copy/quoted it and its so true. Life is a paradoxical dichotomy wrapped in an enigma. I just want to end this post by saying God is good. He gives us what we need. and He is always there and ready to give it, as long as we are not doing whats wicked in His eyes. The Book says... Its His good pleasure to give us the kingdom. YEP . if lambs are sitting under men who preach and feed goats chow , THEN they become goats . We don't feast from the goats chow no matter how cleverly they try and make the outside of their teaching appear to be lambs chow . the lambs will wiff it and be gagging . We feed from the pastures of our LORD , his grade a lambs chow pure green grass fields . For what you feed from is what you serve .
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Sept 29, 2018 8:05:27 GMT -5
Now I just knew it, sooner or later my opportunity would arise to share something that God showed me. and here it is: First, a little reading from God's Word... Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Next, a little digging down... Notice in verse 16 and 25 the word "walk" is present. in english these words appear to be and say the same thing, however, once we start running a shovel we find that these english words walk... they aint the same in the greek. In verse 16 the word walk is this: G4043 περιπατέω peripateō per-ee-pat-eh'-o From G4012 and G3961; to tread all around, that is, walk at large (especially as proof of ability); figuratively to live, deport oneself, follow (as a companion or votary): - go, be occupied with, walk (about). Total KJV occurrences: 96 What is implied here is the context previous to these verses... LIBERTY. And now for the word "walk" in verse 25 in the greek... G4748 στοιχέω stoicheō stoy-kheh'-o From a derivative of στείχω steichō̄ (to range in regular line); to march in (military) rank (keep step), that is, (figuratively) to conform to virtue and piety: - walk (orderly). Total KJV occurrences: 5 This walk means to march orderly. Now how do we approach this self control... How do we obtain it? if there be no good thing in the flesh? 2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. the words "sound mind" hold more meaning that the english would project thru reading.... G4995 σωφρονισμός sōphronismos so-fron-is-mos' From G4994; discipline, that is, self control: - sound mind. Total KJV occurrences: 1 Only used one time in the KJV? wow. this made me do a little more shoveling and what I found is that the Strongs definition is a little on the weak side. this word broken down is sos... or safe, and phren... or the mind... thus safe thinking, but this word also denotes good judgment, disciplined thought patterns, and its what gives us the ability to make right decisions. it does indeed include qualities of self control and self discipline. therefore, we can only obtain or even approach the fruit by what God gives us to start with. We need more Spirit in us... we need to be filled and overflowing. we can do nothing by ourselves, but if we *ABIDE* (flashback to another post) in Him then he abides in us... we cannot bear fruit on our own. If we remain in Him then His words remain in us. its the little things... the thoughts that we CHOOSE to keep clean before they drop down into our heart. the scripture does not say in vain to think on these things... The Book says if a man looks at a woman lustfully he has committed adultery in his heart. this is spiritual adultery... its cheating on God... its idolatry. and The Book does say little children keep yourself from idols. If we keep our minds stayed on Jesus Christ, If we pray.. literally pray our hearts out... then we will be walking in the spirit, we will be doing those little things. and we will be giving no place for the lusts of the flesh to dwell. its a war between flesh and spirit. it will wear you out, but what I have found is if you are worn out... you are not doing your part... you are not giving enough to The Spirit and giving to much to the flesh. there is an old native american saying about inside you there is two wolves... which one will you feed. not exactly parallel to scripture but i think the meaning behind it is worth mentioning for a point. flesh vs. spirit. I have said this many times and I have even seen since I have posted this on the internet people have copy/quoted it and its so true. Life is a paradoxical dichotomy wrapped in an enigma. I just want to end this post by saying God is good. He gives us what we need. and He is always there and ready to give it, as long as we are not doing whats wicked in His eyes. The Book says... Its His good pleasure to give us the kingdom. YEP . if lambs are sitting under men who preach and feed goats chow , THEN they become goats . We don't feast from the goats chow no matter how cleverly they try and make the outside of their teaching appear to be lambs chow . the lambs will wiff it and be gagging . We feed from the pastures of our LORD , his grade a lambs chow pure green grass fields . For what you feed from is what you serve .
you are what you eat... LOL.
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Post by Giller on Sept 29, 2018 8:10:04 GMT -5
Our emotions and 5 senses can succumb to sin or the sin nature which proceeds out of the heart, if they are not brought under control.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 29, 2018 8:36:19 GMT -5
It sounds like we're in agreement! Great comments all around! We should moderate ourselves to the best of our ability on what we can manage (chocolate, wine, shopping, etc). Even atheists can moderate their behavior in these areas, so we know the human condition comes with a moderation capability. But when it comes to the war on our sinful bondages, we need spiritual intervention. I like the definition from 2fw8212a: temperance as a fruit of the Spirit is an ability to be subject to the Spirit. Back in the old days it was common for Christians to physically beat themselves. They took Paul's words to extremes. Of course, also consider, they didn't think much about psychology back then, so uncontrolled physical behaviors didn't get connected to emotional/sensory provocation. They were trying to control their emotions from the outside. The Bible had it right all along in Proverbs 4:23. Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. Jesus echoed that when He said the mouth speaks from the abundance of the heart. Whatever's going on inside of us will manifest outward eventually. And that brings us to what Cletus brought up. God has given us the spirit of a safe, healthy mind. We must esteem this as the invaluable gift it is. Giller, you're on to something when you talk about sensory information. Our sensory intake is the single biggest influence on our emotions. I'd love to hear your further thoughts on that.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 29, 2018 9:33:01 GMT -5
God has given us the spirit of a safe, healthy mind. We must esteem this as the invaluable gift it is. "...So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." - Romans 7:25
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Post by Giller on Sept 29, 2018 13:20:06 GMT -5
1Th 5:23 (23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
As men we are a 3 part being, which is composed of body, soul and spirit.
There is the physical realm (body and it's organs etc.), then there is the soulish realm (mind, will, emotions, senses, which there is more than this as well), and then there is the spirit.
Even though the 5 senses makes itself manifest in our bodies, for with the eyes we can see, it's source of were it comes from is the soul, for a body without a soul cannot do anything, a dead body with eyes cannot see anything and so forth.
The soulish and spiritual realm are both in spirit form, for both are eternal, and can go to Heaven or Hell, which there is much to be said in just this.
When a person dies the soul and spirit go to Heaven that is if you were saved but the body does not, but one day will be changed at the rapture of the church or resurrection, into a incorruptible body, and will go to Heaven along with the spirit and soul, during that time, and it says the dead in Christ shall rise first and they which are alive and remain shall be caught with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so on.
When Satan attacks us, or tempts us, he firsts brings a thought to our minds, and seeks to stimulate our emotions and senses, so to lust after something, and thus in doing so, seeks to get the sin nature to rise up from the heart (spiritual heart which comes from the spirit), and thus if yielded to, shall cause one to sin.
As a Christian we have the sin nature, and God's new nature, and then there are some who call our sensory part, and emotions, the human nature.
As Christians we no longer live after the sin nature, for it has no longer dominion over us, but that does not mean it is still not there, for it is obvious that Christian's still sin, which the bible affirms.
What we have to do is to put off the old man and his deeds, and to put on the new man.
And right now I will just leave it at that.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 29, 2018 14:15:31 GMT -5
We die to the nature we inherited from the first Adam so we may put on the divine nature of the second Adam.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 29, 2018 14:19:59 GMT -5
We die to the nature we inherited from the first Adam so we may put on the divine nature of the second Adam. And we have all we need IN CHRIST to do this . to become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the pollutions of the world , the sinful lusts of the flesh.
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Post by Giller on Sept 29, 2018 14:37:41 GMT -5
So da people, how's about we get into another fruit, whatever one that someone may feel to cover.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 29, 2018 14:56:45 GMT -5
“And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.” (Isaiah 6:9-10)
Seeing and hearing are the gateways to the heart. That’s why Jesus said the eyes are the lamp of the soul. What we see and hear in any given situation will impact the condition of our heart. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. It is the word of God which opens our ears to truth and beauty.
So let’s talk about faith as a fruit of the Spirit! If faith is a deposit God grants to us, how does the Holy Spirit produce it in our lives?
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 29, 2018 15:48:27 GMT -5
If faith is a deposit God grants to us, how does the Holy Spirit produce it in our lives? I believe through love and knowledge.
Knowledge must always be accompanied with love, as knowledge from God (truth) without love is unfruitful.
"For the earth yields crops by itself: first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head." - Mark 4:28
That is why humble people grows much faster spiritually.
They do not contend with the Spirit, they are more obedient and willing to hear and obey.
"But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience." - Luke 8:15
I believe that faith, as a fruit of the Spirit, is the ability to be faithful to God. To deny what is contrary to the Spirit and to honor God.
Each one has a measure of faith, and I believe it can be increased or decreased.
"For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance..." - Matthew 13:12
And it is linked to how receptive they are to love, the more receptive, the more obedient, the more faith one has.
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." - Galatians 5:6
And consequently, the more opportunities they will have to be used for the glory of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ.
"Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work." - 2 Timothy 2:21
The more receptive one is to the Spirit of God, they will hear more from Him and they will believe much more.
"...believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails..." - 1 Corinthians 13:7-8
"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." - 1 John 4:8
"Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith..." - 1 Timothy 1:5
"Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:4
Blessings, blessings to you all in Jesus' name!
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Sept 29, 2018 16:21:57 GMT -5
Letters is right on with that love and knowledge. As we walk with God, as we grow nearer to Him, as we learn of Him and His ways, we begin to believe in Him more, trust Him more, and understand more and more of His Word. As a believer i have noticed, even when i did wrong, and i mean messed up good, when I got my heart right again God used that to grow me in Him and I got closer to Him. one of the things that also grows is faith. no matter what we do whether good or bad God uses it. for a good bit of my life after i got saved i learned mostly by messing up. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. in a sense we see God thru his actions and dealings with us, with others, and in and thru us. a lot of new believers say things that to someone on a diet of meat is kind of silly, but they have not seen these things with God yet. there was a point in my walk were i no longer liked the definition of faith is something you believe. in a sense faith is something you know. and when its genuine, no one can tell you any different. (because you know that you know... because you know... because you know)
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