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Post by Giller on Oct 24, 2018 12:49:35 GMT -5
When an unbeliever comes to Christ, he places his faith in God and gets saved, and it is only then that this person can now experience the fruit of faith.
So what I want to discuss, is the difference between the fruit of faith, and faith unto repentance.
Notice that an unbeliever can have faith inside of them, but it has to be placed in Christ and what he did at the cross, and then he gets saved.
And only then can he walk in the fruit of faith.
But also I want to discuss the difference between the gift of faith mentioned in Corinthians and the fruit of faith.
Here are some scriptures of interest:
Gal 5:22-25 (22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
1Co 12:7-11 (7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; (9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; (10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Oct 24, 2018 15:30:58 GMT -5
So what I want to discuss, is the difference between the fruit of faith, and faith unto repentance. Notice that an unbeliever can have faith inside of them, but it has to be placed in Christ and what he did at the cross, and then he gets saved. Faith unto repentance is only possible by knowledge and understanding of truth, which only God can give.
That is why there are so many people who profess to know Christ when in reality they never knew Him.
"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:23
No one can repent in truth if they do not receive the knowledge and the understanding of that truth.
"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." - 1 John 1:6
And only God is able to give the person such faith and let them be able to endure until the end.
"For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake..." - Philippians 1:29
"Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear." - Romans 11:20
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God..." - Ephesians 2:8
People who do not know the truth cannot walk in it because God did not give them the understanding.
People have to seek for that knowledge by faith, so that they can know the truth; and repent in truth.
"in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth..." - 2 Timothy 2:25
"And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." - Jeremiah 29:13
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." - Matthew 7:7But also I want to discuss the difference between the gift of faith mentioned in Corinthians and the fruit of faith. Here are some scriptures of interest: Gal 5:22-25 (22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 1Co 12:7-11 (7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; (9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; (10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. The fruit of faith, I believe, is the quality of being faithful to the Lord and His righteousness.
I believe the gift of faith is different from saving faith as I have explained above.
I believe we all can experience all the gifts of the Spirit, it is just a matter of knowledge and availability.
"Jesus said to him, If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes." - Mark 9:23
The more knowledgeable a person is of the gifts and the more open to learn and practice them the more they will receive.
"For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance..." - Matthew 13:12
"even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ..." - 1 Corinthians 1:6-7
But it is rare to happen to see a single person manifesting all the gifts.
I believe Paul was one of these people, but Paul was (apparently) very dedicated to the Lord.
"...he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves." - Luke 22:26
"Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:4
"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." - Philippians 2:13
Now to explain the gift of faith, the gift of faith, I believe is a supernatural type of faith that each believer has in different levels.
But I believe it is the ability of detecting and answering to faith available in the spiritual realm.
We have many opportunities to apply our faith in God during the day, but most people simply does not see the opportunities shown or they do not have the required faith.
Then, people who have the gift of faith in a higher level will be able to answer to more of these opportunities and receive an answer from God.
Blessings!
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Post by Giller on Oct 26, 2018 0:33:56 GMT -5
Well right now I will only comment on the gift of faith and the fruit of faith.
I believe that the fruit of faith is given to every believer at salvation, which is when the Holy Spirit indwells us.
Here is a scripture:
Rom 12:3 (3) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Now I have heard 2 ways this scripture is used, some say it refers to every man in the world has been dealt the measure of faith, and others will say that the measure of faith has been dealt to every man that is among the brethren.
Now here is a comment on this, from Jimmy Swaggart:
(Jimmy Swaggart)
(Romans 12:3 ...according as God has dealt to every man the measure of Faith (this is given by the Holy Spirit at conversion).)
But if that does not convince someone then all we have to do is get some context.
Rom 12:1-4 (1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (3) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. (4) For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
After it mentions God dealing to every man the measure of faith, it mentions the word "for", which is an explanation of what was just spoken of.
And in that explanation it mentions many members in one body, which refers to the body of Christ.
This measure of faith that we receive at salvation is pointing to the fruit of faith, which was authored by Christ.
Heb 12:2 (2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
All believers have this fruit.
But now what about the gift of faith ?
Is that given to every single believer???
1Co 12:7-11 (7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; (9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; (10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
And we can compare this scripture with this next one:
1Co 12:28-30 (28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. (29) Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? (30) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
So it is showing that only some are called to be apostles and so forth, and it then later ask the question are all apostles, well obviously not, and do all have the gifts of healing, well also obviously not.
So in what way does it say that the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal ?
Is it because every man in the body is operating in all of these gifts? Absolutely not, but rather there is potential for every man in the body, in some form to operate in these gifts.
And it says to one (not to all) is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom, and to another (not to all) faith by the same Spirit etc.
And later it says concerning the Holy Spirit how he divides these to every man severally as he will, and not as we will, though to operate in one of these gifts it does require one to allow the Holy Spirit to operate this way through them.
So it is not saying that all believers have these gifts, but the potential for believers to operate in these gifts is there, and some can operate in many of these gifts, if the Spirit distributes these gifts to them.
So the potential is there, but it is the Spirit that distributes this gift to that one, and that gift to this one, as he wills.
Now it has been mentioned to me that the gift of faith, is having faith for someone who does not have faith, in the realm of some manifestation such as healing, and that often times the gift of faith, comes into operation along with gifts like the gifts of healing.
Well one key word is found in our next scripture:
1Co 12:7-11
(7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
All of the gifts in some form or manner, points to some type of supernatural manifestation.
And look what it puts the gift of faith besides, which are the gifts of healings, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits etc.
That is basically all I have to say right now.
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Post by Giller on Oct 27, 2018 1:50:25 GMT -5
I have been reading about the gift of faith from various commentators and the opinions are extremely varied and not the same, though with only certain it seems a little bit close to each other.
I know that as believers that we can all pray for someone to get healed and doing so by faith, but this itself is not the gift of faith.
The gift of faith is of course not saving faith, but a special supernatural faith given by the Holy Spirit as he wills.
I know that many times in the bible, it required for the person to believe that God could heal them, and he did.
Here are examples of this:
Mar 5:34 (34) And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Mar 10:51-52 (51) And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight. (52) And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Act 14:9-10 (9) The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, (10) Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
Most of the time faith is required to some degree from the person wanting healing, but none of these examples above, I believe to be the gift of faith.
The gift of faith is a special gift, I believe that the gift of faith, is a faith that is out of the ordinary, and may very well act in conjunction with some of the other gifts, it may be that when a recipient is needing healing but does not have faith to be healed, that through the believer which is being used through the gift of faith, that the recipient will still get healed regardless to having no faith to be healed.
And it may take place many times in not so ordinary circumstances.
Now I read of some who think of this gift of faith as some type of perceiving before hand, but in some cases this may be more to do with some type of word gift.
Now which one that might be I am not sure, i know that there is the gift of the word of knowledge, the word of wisdom, and prophecy.
And concerning Paul perceiving that a certain person had faith to be healed, I think that Paul simply discerned this.
The gift of faith is still a faith based gift to were one is believing, but it is a special extra ordinary belief, to were it brings healing on the scene or the setting a person free from some bondage of sort, of a recipient who is not quite there in believing for a healing or whatever the case may be.
I personally have not experienced this gift.
But I know that it is part of one of the manifestations of the Spirit.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Oct 27, 2018 7:02:26 GMT -5
I have been reading about the gift of faith from various commentators and the opinions are extremely varied and not the same, though with only certain it seems a little bit close to each other. I believe this happens because the gifts can be manifested in different ways - according to the individual's faith and personality.
"As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." - 1 Peter 4:10
"If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen." - 1 Peter 4:11
As an example, the gift of healing can be manifested in different ways.
Some may believe that they must lay hands on you for healing to be effective, others will believe that just a word is enough, for others a long prayer is required.
"There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord." - 1 Corinthians 12:5
And the same happens with other gifts, such as faith, prophecy, etc... They all vary in degrees and forms of manifestation.
Some can prophesy in one way, and other in another. Some manifest their faith in a way, other in another.
Another example is the gift discerning of spirits.
Some people can simply know of what kind of spirit you are just by looking at you, others can know after talking to you for some time, and others can literally see.
"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift." - Ephesians 4:7
Blessings!
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Post by Giller on Oct 27, 2018 9:32:24 GMT -5
I have been reading about the gift of faith from various commentators and the opinions are extremely varied and not the same, though with only certain it seems a little bit close to each other. I believe this happens because the gifts can be manifested in different ways - according to the individual's faith and personality.
Hi brother Letters thanks for your response, I personally bear witness to the way I mentioned the gift of faith, but it is possible that in some ways God may use it in various ways, what I do know is that it is not regular faith, and it is a special gift. God bless Letters.
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Post by Giller on Oct 27, 2018 9:35:54 GMT -5
Now here is a question to ponder upon, which concerns the fruit of faith.
Did the Old Testament saints under Old covenant times, have the fruit of faith, or is this a New testament thing?
Now they did have faith, but did they have the fruit of faith?
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Post by Giller on Oct 27, 2018 10:02:26 GMT -5
It is possible that in some way that I may be just scratching some of the surface concerning the gift of faith.
One thing I do know is that I do bear witness to the aspect I mentioned, and i am a type of person who likes to re look at things.
On one of the commentators on E-Sword, a certain commentator associates it with the miraculous, but then there is John Wesley, which he has an interesting point as well.
Here is a comment from him:
(John Wesley)
(1 Corinthians 12:9
Faith may here mean an extraordinary trust in God under the most difficult or dangerous circumstances. ...)
There may be times that the believer himself may need an extra ordinary supply of this special faith in extra ordinary circumstances.
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Post by Giller on Oct 27, 2018 10:10:07 GMT -5
And concerning the 9 spiritual gifts, I believe that all of them are special gifts, extra ordinary supernatural gifts.
And all believers can pray for someone to be healed, and praying this prayer in faith.
Yet not all believers have the gifts of healing, which tells me that there is something special about these gifts in some form or manner.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Oct 27, 2018 10:17:15 GMT -5
Now they did have faith, but did they have the fruit of faith? I believe yes.
"And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." - Luke 1:6
"because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." - Genesis 26:5
Obviously, Abraham, Mary and Joseph were not self-righteous like a pharisee. They acknowledged their sins and their need for a savior.
"To grant us that we, Being delivered from the hand of our enemies, Might serve Him without fear..." - Luke 1:74
"...not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith..." - Philippians 3:9
"...I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless." - Genesis 17:1
"Surely He scorns the scornful, But gives grace to the humble." - Proverbs 3:34
But I believe that at that point in time, as the gift of the Holy Spirit was not yet given, they could not walk like we can do today under the New Testament.
"For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." - John 1:17
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." - John 8:32
"But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him." - John 4:23
"for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it." - Matthew 13:17
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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Post by 2fw8212a on Oct 27, 2018 10:24:44 GMT -5
Yet not all believers have the gifts of healing, which tells me that there is something special about these gifts in some form or manner. As I have said, I believe all believers have all the gifts.
"...for God does not give the Spirit by measure." - John 3:34
"For with God nothing will be impossible." - Luke 1:37
"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." - Philippians 2:13
And any believer is able to manifest them as long as they can believe (by knowledge).
But knowledge is given by God, and only He can give knowledge to the person. That is why it is hard to manifest all the gifts.
"But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it..." - 1 Corinthians 12:24
Because the person must desire and seek the gifts, and then God will give them knowledge and ability.
"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." - Hebrews 11:6
And even that faith to desire and seek comes from God, then the decision is God's not the believer's.
"Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts..." - 1 Corinthians 14:1
"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." - 1 John 4:8
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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Post by Giller on Oct 27, 2018 12:38:30 GMT -5
There is a believing aspect of things, and a desire aspect of things:
"Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts..." - 1 Corinthians 14:1
But in the end this is what the bible says:
1Co 12:7-11 (7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; (9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; (10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The potential for all believers to walk in a certain aspect of these things is there, yet it is the Holy Spirit that leads in these things, and not just simply having a desire, though we should desire for these things to be, and be used in some aspect of these things.
But it is the Holy Spirit who gives to one this gift, and to another that gift.
Which shows that it is not for all, yet God does desire that we be used, and seek to be used, in these gifts, in some fashion.
But he leads in this, and distributes these gifts as he sees fit.
Otherwise God would have specifically shown that he gives all of these gifts to all.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Oct 27, 2018 13:04:02 GMT -5
There is a believing aspect of things, and a desire aspect of things: "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts..." - 1 Corinthians 14:1 But in the end this is what the bible says: 1Co 12:7-11 (7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; (9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; (10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. The potential for all believers to walk in a certain aspect of these things is there, yet it is the Holy Spirit that leads in these things, and not just simply having a desire, though we should desire for these things to be, and be used in some aspect of these things. But it is the Holy Spirit who gives to one this gift, and to another that gift. Which shows that it is not for all, yet God does desire that we be used, and seek to be used, in these gifts, in some fashion. But he leads in this, and distributes these gifts as he sees fit. Otherwise God would have specifically shown that he gives all of these gifts to all. I believe the gifts are manifested at the moment they are needed. As you can see, "the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man...".
All believers can experience any manifestations, but not all have the knowledge and measure of faith required for the manifestation needed at that moment.
One of the reasons we should be seeking to come closer and closer to God, walk holier and learn more; if more Christians do this the more they will be used by God.
"Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work." - 2 Timothy 2:21
And I believe that some type of people will develop a stronger desire and interest for some gifts in particular.
That is why we see some people dedicated to healing, others to prophesy, and others to casting out of demons, teaching, etc.
Blessings!
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Post by Giller on Oct 27, 2018 13:06:11 GMT -5
1Co 12:28-31 (28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. (29) Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? (30) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (31) But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Some means some and not all, and it puts in this list gifts of healing, which shows that only some are used in the gifts of healing and not all, just like only some are apostles and not all.
Then it later asks the question, have all the gifts of healing?
Obviously not, and the some part let's us also know that the answer is no.
Here is a comment from Jimmy Swaggart on some of this:
( Jimmy's comments in blue)
1Co 12:28 (28) And God hath set some in the church,...after that miracles (pertains to this particular Gift of the Spirit), then gifts of healings (examples of Gifts of the Spirit which should operate in the Ministry), helps (refers to every kind of help God sets in the Church, whatever it might be),...
Now concerning helps, we are all called in certain aspects to help, but not all have the same gifts in regards to helps, that is why it says helps in plural.
And not all have the same gifts in regards to different aspects of helps.
And here is one more comment:
1Co 12:30 (30) Have all the gifts of healing? (The answer is obviously, "no.")...
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Post by 2fw8212a on Oct 27, 2018 13:17:33 GMT -5
1Co 12:30 (30) Have all the gifts of healing? (The answer is obviously, "no.")... One simple example I can tell is the gift of tongues. I do not speak in tongues.
I had the desire to seek for it, I tried it for some time, but I did not have the faith then I stopped.
And then I came to the conclusion that I did not need the gift of tongues, and that it was not for me.
It seems that seeking was more a fruit of pressure from other people than a genuine desire.
To some people to be able to speak in tongues is edifying somehow. And they talk as if it was something important in sanctification.
And I had to learn that people do not need to speak in tongues in order to reach higher degrees of sanctification and relationship with God.
Not all people are the same, some cannot live without speaking in tongues for some time as it is an edifying practice for them.
"For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s." - Romans 14:7-8
Others feel just as close to God without speaking in tongues.
But could I speak in tongues?! I believe I could, if I had the faith to receive it.
"Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" - 1 Corinthians 12:30
"...A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven." - John 3:27
I may not speak in tongues. But I know I can prophesy.
"I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied..." - 1 Corinthians 14:5
"For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that." - 1 Corinthians 7:7
"Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification." - 1 Corinthians 14:26
Blessings!
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