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Post by Giller on Oct 27, 2018 13:46:46 GMT -5
Now concerning the fruit of faith (and not just simply faith), concerning the Old Testament saints, under Old Covenant times.
We know that they followed God and put their faith in God.
The Spirit would be poured on certain individuals, and poured out in certain manners, but the Holy Spirit did not come to fully indwell man, until the day of Pentecost.
Now were the Old Covenant saints born again (answer carefully)? And for the fruit of faith to be in or indwell someone, do they not need to be born again?
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Oct 27, 2018 13:54:35 GMT -5
the best way i can explain the Gift of Faith is that its not a belief... its a knowing.
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Post by Giller on Oct 27, 2018 22:14:26 GMT -5
Here are some key things concerning the fruit of faith:
Gal 5:22-25 (22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Why can we now crucify the flesh, under our covenant?
And throughout Galatians 5, you see things like walking in the Spirit, and other things.
Gal 5:16 (16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:18 (18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:6 (6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Doesn't these verses make you think of a life of faith, or a faith walk?
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Oct 28, 2018 5:27:51 GMT -5
Faith is not so easy to nail down in explanation. Every man is given the measure of faith unto salvation, the bible says this, and I believe it. If it were not so a person who had not been given this measure of faith could on judgment day say its not fair that God didnt give them the same chance at salvation as everyone that did get this faith. Here is a scripture on faith i think is worth noting: Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. its the last part that is important.... whatsoever is not of faith is sin. that is a mouthful. if i do something thats not of faith its a sin, it dont just have to be i stole something... It could be something else as the whole chapter of romans 14 is speaking of... eating meat. it also speaks on being a stumbling block to those who do not eat meat. there is responsibility to the believer in faith, not just liberty. another scripture tells us the just shall live by faith. the just... or justified... or just if I'd never sinned... shall live by faith. we are commanded to live by faith. so as giller points out... a life of faith or a walk of faith. even more, faith is the only thing God accepts from us... not our actions to justify us. the NT even tells us the OT people such as Abraham... was justified by FAITH... not by obeying Gods law. and just to clarify I am not saying we can ignore Gods law because the law is still good... but if we are led by the spirit we are not under the law... its our faith. Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for... and our hope is to have life in Jesus and not perish in our sins. Thats what Jesus came in the flesh to accomplish for us, to save us, and we are saved by grace thru faith. Without Gods spirit we cant have faith, so we cant walk in faith. Faith has so many aspects and angles its mind boggling. One thing I really like is when we lack faith and we pray, help my unbelief, He gives us more faith, and then we can move foward in life... the just shall live by faith. Faith is a key component to being a chrsitian, just to be able to function, understand, believe, walk in Him, everything. I do not think for a believer there is any aspect of life that faith does not touch and encompass. Without faith we cannot live a life that is pleasing to God... and yet faith is a fruit of The Spirit.
God is so awesome.
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Post by Giller on Oct 28, 2018 8:21:06 GMT -5
I will get back into the fruit of faith in a bit, but want to share more thoughts on the gifts of the Spirit.
1Co 12:7-11 (7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; (9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; (10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
An example of the gift of faith, in conjunction with one of the gifts of healing, is found in this next scripture:
Act 3:2-9 (2) And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple; (3) Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms. (4) And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us. (5) And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them. (6) Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. (7) And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. (8) And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. (9) And all the people saw him walking and praising God:
This guy never asked for healing, but was looking to get alms.
Other examples in the realm of the gifts of healing are found in our next examples:
Act 5:14-15 (14) And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) (15) Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
I know that it was not Peter's shadow that healed, and miracles and so forth never precede the word, but follow it.
Joh 9:6-8 (6) When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, (7) And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing. (8) The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
And examples of unusual miracles were that of the withered tree, and walking on water.
The gifts of the Spirit are extra ordinary even unusual gifts, to were one is given to this one, and the other is given to that one.
It seemed that only Jesus, before Pentecost was baptized in the Spirit, to were he was fully immersed into the Holy Ghost, but at that time it was not evidenced with tongues, and no doubt he would have had all the gifts of the Spirit save tongues and interpretation, and of course prayer tongues.
For the baptism of the Holy Ghost only started it's manifestation with tongues from Pentecost on wards.
Now the 12 before Pentecost had the Spirit poured upon them, but the Holy Ghost did not indwell them yet.
They were not born again yet, that is until Pentecost.
To walk in these special gifts, it firstly requires that you be born again, and then baptized in the Holy Ghost.
And that is were tongues and so forth starts, at the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
(p.s. The word gifts, such as the word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and prophecy, is usually used within services, though not necessarily having to be exclusive to services, and they are spoken out loud.)
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Post by Giller on Oct 28, 2018 18:52:04 GMT -5
the best way i can explain the Gift of Faith is that its not a belief... its a knowing. I am not totally sure in what way you mean this, but one thing is sure is that head faith will only get people to only know about Christ, but true heart faith will get people to actually knowing Christ in reality or in realness. Now I want to go back to a scripture: Rom 12:3-6 (3) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. (4) For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: (5) So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (6) Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; No one in the body of Christ is higher than the other, we are all equal to each other, all members of the body of Christ have been given the measure of faith at salvation. And this faith is referring to the fruit of faith, which also enables us to walk in the gifts of the Spirit, which in verse 6 it talks about prophesying according to the proportion of faith. Now of course there is a difference between the gift of faith, and the fruit of faith, but the fruit of faith can enable one to be eventually used in the gift of faith, as the Holy Spirit pours this gift upon a person. But the faith that one has before salvation does not allow a person to walk in the gift of prophecy, according to the proportion of faith, it is very important that we read context, and what it says before hand and afterwards. And concerning Adam before the fall, he had a perfect faith, but after he fell his faith was no longer perfect, but if Adam or any other under Old Testament times would put their faith in God in any capacity, God considered it, why? Because men are good? Absolutely not, but rather because of his mercy. Now this next scripture refers to New Covenant times. Tit 3:5 (5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; But even under old Covenant times it was according to his mercy, thank God that God considered men's faith. But under Christ (New Covenant), once we have placed our faith in God, he gives us a new heart and new spirit , and places the fruit of the Spirit within us. All of the fruit of the Spirit are perfect fruit, and the fruit of faith, would actually point to what this next scripture points to: Gal 2:20 (20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Christ authored this perfect faith through his own perfect life, and at salvation it was given to us, and this is that fruit of faith. But even thou we have this perfect faith residing in us, does not mean that we are walking perfectly in this faith, or have attained to walking in the fullness of this faith, we can always grow more in this faith. This faith is for living the Christian life, it is for living a life of victory, it is for fighting the good fight of faith, it is just simply for our walk of faith.
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Post by frienduff on Oct 28, 2018 19:15:53 GMT -5
GLORY , GLORY TO THE LORD . and ps , I don't think the pope is gonna pin the perfect Christian medal on giller of any of us here . BUT WOE UNTO US when false ones speak well of us anyway . NOW , you all JUST LEAP UP AND PRAISE THE LORD . I gotta say their truly is no such thing as over praising THE LORD . ITS TIME TO PRAISE HIS NAME in all we do , LIFT those hands up and just leap up and praise the LORD . You all are loved . THE FAITH IN OUR LORD . OH let the peoples sing .
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Post by Giller on Oct 28, 2018 21:39:55 GMT -5
Some of the things I think about concerning this issue of the gifts of the Spirit (tongues and interpretation etc.) and other areas of the word, goes a long the line of this:
There is God's general will which is for all, and there is God's individual will which is for the individual.
1Co 7:7 (7) For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
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Cletus
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Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Oct 28, 2018 22:16:36 GMT -5
the best way i can explain the Gift of Faith is that its not a belief... its a knowing. I am not totally sure in what way you mean this, but one thing is sure is that head faith will only get people to only know about Christ, but true heart faith will get people to actually knowing Christ in reality or in realness. Have you ever had the anointing on you so strong you knew if you spoke, things would happen and it could mess up everything because the same power is in you that said let there be light... and there was light... or you could tell a mountain to get up and into the sea with you... and quake, woosh, splash? The Gift of faith is not the same as faith unto salvation, or faith to eat meat. way different.
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Post by Giller on Oct 28, 2018 22:22:45 GMT -5
The Gift of faith is not the same as faith unto salvation, or faith to eat meat. way different. I totally agree, never said it was. Oh and when I said this: "I am not totally sure in what way you mean this, but one thing is sure is that head faith will only get people to only know about Christ, but true heart faith will get people to actually knowing Christ in reality or in realness." I was talking about faith in general, but did not understand the way you meant this statement:"the best way i can explain the Gift of Faith is that its not a belief... its a knowing. " So I just simply went around the subject, and just talked about faith in general.
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Cletus
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Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Oct 28, 2018 22:39:14 GMT -5
I totally agree, never said it was. Oh and when I said this: "I am not totally sure in what way you mean this, but one thing is sure is that head faith will only get people to only know about Christ, but true heart faith will get people to actually knowing Christ in reality or in realness." I was talking about faith in general, but did not understand the way you meant this statement:"the best way i can explain the Gift of Faith is that its not a belief... its a knowing. " So I just simply went around the subject, and just talked about faith in general. I was asking if you ever experienced it because i dont know words to explain that.
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Post by Giller on Oct 29, 2018 9:52:51 GMT -5
Of course I have experience answered prayer like most, even a specific miraculous one after a certain manner, but the gift of faith, no.
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Post by Giller on Oct 29, 2018 10:55:14 GMT -5
Now of course there is faith for repentance, and then there is the fruit of faith. Now were does sin come from? Mar 7:21-23 (21) For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, (22) Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: (23) All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. It comes from the heart, and not from the body. From within. Now our bodies and souls are not perfect, but even though they are not perfect, they are also neutral, in the sense that what you give your body and soul over to, is what will flow through the body and soul, whether it be sin, or God's type of righteousness. Rom 6:13 (13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. And also the bible says this: Rom 6:12 (12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Sin does not have to reign in your mortal body, which means you do not have to give it over to this. What makes a person an individual, is not the body nor the spirit, but rather it is the soul, which is the place we make our decisions. The soul makes Gilles, Gilles, or makes Frienduff, Frienduff, or makes Paul, Paul, makes an individual an individual. Now all the body soul and spirit is part of us, but I want to clarify this more. Here are a few scriptures: Eph 4:22 (22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
| Eph 4:24 (24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
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The word flesh in the bible sometimes refers to the body but sometimes also refers to the sin nature, which comes from within. What happened when we got born again? Joh 3:6 (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
| Eze 36:26 (26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
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The Holy Spirit birth within us a new heart and new spirit, and put within these new hearts, a new nature, and now Christ is within us, and the Holy Spirit resides within our new hearts, he indwells the believer. But also at the born again experience, the stony heart was taken out of our flesh, but not in a way that that heart no longer exists within, but rather in the sense that the power of it, and the stony heart itself, has been cut off, circumcised, and therefore sin does not have to reign within us, thus sin no longer having to reign in our mortal bodies. Here are a few scriptures for comparison: Rom 6:6 (6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
| Eze 36:26 (26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
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Sin comes from within, not from the body, and when the old man is crucified, the source of sin is cut off, therefore the body that put sin into action gets destroyed, for sin is now, no longer reigning in these mortal bodies. The old dead spirit with it's sin nature is no longer part of us, but still remains in us. But the new heart and spirit is the new us, and Christ and the Holy Spirit can only indwell a spirit that does not have the sin nature. The Holy Spirit can touch an unbeliever and so forth, but he cannot indwell them. When we sin, we sin with the old man, and it's sin nature, but also with our souls, and either within our bodies, or through our bodies. When we do righteousness, we do righteousness with the new man, the soul and the body in some way. Thoughts come from the heart, but makes it's way to the soul, but also flows to the physical brain. Faith for repentance is within the old man, for it is with the old man we sin, so we still need this faith. But the fruit of faith that is within the new man, is not for repentance, but rather for walking in victory. Heb 10:39 (39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
| 1Th 5:23 (23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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If we continue in faith and grace, our soul, body and spirit will be preserved blameless, and the blood of Christ actually protects our new hearts and spirits from the sin nature, but when we sin our new hearts get grieved, and thus the filthiness that we let out of the old man, which grieves the new man, needing to be cleansed, for we must be cleansed from that filthiness. We must bring our sins under the blood, and therefore the results will be that our new man is no longer grieved, or even choked from the sin nature, for the new man only feeds on the word of God, and gets renewed by this means. What Satan is wanting, is that he wants for us to completely resurrect the old man, to were we no longer have the new man any more thus losing our salvation.
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Post by John on Oct 29, 2018 11:28:45 GMT -5
Now here is a question to ponder upon, which concerns the fruit of faith. Did the Old Testament saints under Old covenant times, have the fruit of faith, or is this a New testament thing? Now they did have faith, but did they have the fruit of faith? I am still reading through this thread, but I would say they did not, as God's Spirit didn't take up residence in human temples till after the cross, but clearly God gave supernatural abilities to men, like when he gifted some to make the required things for the temple Solomon built.
I did notice you spoke on the measure of faith, the fruit faith and the gift of faith. Could you explain how they all differ to you? I was a little confused by one post in particular as to what you were saying.
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Post by Giller on Oct 29, 2018 13:11:34 GMT -5
I did notice you spoke on the measure of faith, the fruit faith and the gift of faith. Could you explain how they all differ to you? I was a little confused by one post in particular as to what you were saying.
I will get back to you on this.
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