Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2018 9:26:39 GMT -5
It's tragic how the church has been notoriously ineffective and even enabling when it comes to spousal and child abuse. It needs to be dealt with the same way any gross sins are to be dealt with in the church.....biblically. And the victims need to be sheltered and protected until such time as the abuser repents for real, the same as good Christians should and would try to help the victims of any crime.
Mat 18:16-18
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
1Co 5:2-5
And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Nov 5, 2018 9:58:30 GMT -5
It's tragic how the church has been notoriously ineffective and even enabling when it comes to spousal and child abuse. It needs to be dealt with the same way any gross sins are to be dealt with in the church.....biblically. And the victims need to be sheltered and protected until such time as the abuser repents for real, the same as good Christians should and would try to help the victims of any crime. There are two major obstacles hindering the church in this area: 1) No consensus on what counts as abuse. 2) Sharp disagreement on whether an abuser can be rehabilitated. Some time ago, I was among a group of Christians when a man in our midst opened up about his personal life. He said his wife had left him. He'd been going through an emotional battle, had found himself unstable, and had hit her. She packed up and left. He'd remained loyal to her as he tried to win her back. No amount of apologizing or counseling was good enough for her to listen, though. I made the mistake of encouraging him that reconciliation was possible. Another woman in the group pounced on me like a tiger. Once an abuser, always an abuser, and I had no business being nice to such a monster. Needless to say, that was the end of this man being transparent with us. I've never attempted to help a young couple in public ever since. |
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Nov 5, 2018 10:29:22 GMT -5
Let’s flip the paradigm on this. “What kind of woman says her husband’s paycheck isn’t good enough and then accuses him of cheating when he starts to avoid her? That aint a woman; it’s a five year old in a woman’s body.”
The Bible says more about toxic women than it says about toxic men. All I've done is to take the Bible at its word and to listen to the male perspective. I know it's a shock to our modern society, but men have feelings too. When I started at that premise, I discovered a lot of interesting things. |
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Post by John on Nov 5, 2018 10:30:15 GMT -5
I don't know how hard he hit her, like punched or slapped or whatever, but these generalizations like once an abuser, always an abuser, are not always true. There is a difference in habitual behavior and a one time screw up. I agree with what you told him, if it was a one time incident.
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Post by John on Nov 5, 2018 10:39:21 GMT -5
It's tragic how the church has been notoriously ineffective and even enabling when it comes to spousal and child abuse. It needs to be dealt with the same way any gross sins are to be dealt with in the church.....biblically. And the victims need to be sheltered and protected until such time as the abuser repents for real, the same as good Christians should and would try to help the victims of any crime. Mat 18:16-18 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 1Co 5:2-5 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2018 18:05:25 GMT -5
It's tragic how the church has been notoriously ineffective and even enabling when it comes to spousal and child abuse. It needs to be dealt with the same way any gross sins are to be dealt with in the church.....biblically. And the victims need to be sheltered and protected until such time as the abuser repents for real, the same as good Christians should and would try to help the victims of any crime. There are two major obstacles hindering the church in this area: 1) No consensus on what counts as abuse. 2) Sharp disagreement on whether an abuser can be rehabilitated. Some time ago, I was among a group of Christians when a man in our midst opened up about his personal life. He said his wife had left him. He'd been going through an emotional battle, had found himself unstable, and had hit her. She packed up and left. He'd remained loyal to her as he tried to win her back. No amount of apologizing or counseling was good enough for her to listen, though. I made the mistake of encouraging him that reconciliation was possible. Another woman in the group pounced on me like a tiger. Once an abuser, always an abuser, and I had no business being nice to such a monster. Needless to say, that was the end of this man being transparent with us. I've never attempted to help a young couple in public ever since. Yes...in some cases there might be specific areas of reasons, though because of the overall dismal track record of the evangelical church in general regarding this, I believe it is reflective of deeper issues. Something like how pedophilia is swept under the carpet and allowed to flourish under cover of darkness in the Catholic church....deep issues, not the same issues necessarily but in both instances I believe these are red flags of a deeper problem. Sad that there wasn't better wisdom in that group you mentioned....I agree that someone doing something out of character one time doesn't mean they necessarily pose a danger from then on. It's when the abuse follows a habitual pattern that it is gravely concerning and needs to be dealt with accordingly. Also as an aside, forgiveness doesn't necessitate putting oneself in danger. An abused person can forgive their attacker but it doesnt' mean they have to put God to the test and put themselves back in a dangerous situation if the abuser hasn't truly repented and changed. Honestly though, I have a hard time fathoming that a true born again believer would behave that way to begin with (habitually I mean). |
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Nov 5, 2018 18:24:29 GMT -5
That is a good point. When the woman who is supposed to be their help meet and closest companion in life constantly belittles and opposes them, it will lead to men turning elsewhere, but not necessarily having an affair. You have a lot of insight into things most are blind to.
The Bible says more about toxic women than it says about toxic men. All I've done is to take the Bible at its word and to listen to the male perspective. I know it's a shock to our modern society, but men have feelings too. When I started at that premise, I discovered a lot of interesting things. while i do agree with you, as well as the bible agreeing with what you say(double whammy)... i think its important to note the man is the head of the household and thus its likely he is held to a higher standard on certain things. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2018 18:44:39 GMT -5
It's tragic how the church has been notoriously ineffective and even enabling when it comes to spousal and child abuse. It needs to be dealt with the same way any gross sins are to be dealt with in the church.....biblically. And the victims need to be sheltered and protected until such time as the abuser repents for real, the same as good Christians should and would try to help the victims of any crime. Mat 18:16-18 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 1Co 5:2-5 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Brother, I've heard many stories over the years of abused women approaching their churches for help and counsel with regard to abusive husbands, and they were just told to go home and submit to their husbands. Correct me if I'm wrong because I don't really know the dictionary definition of enabling, but that seems like it would be enabling an abuser. I have never heard any reports of spousal abuse being handled biblically...of the women being helped and protected and abusive husbands confronted and counselled and disciplined when necessary. |
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Post by frienduff on Nov 5, 2018 19:43:58 GMT -5
That is so sad sister watchful . no true christain man would be an habitual abuser , habitual sinner of any sort .
Any pastoral man of GOD , would separate that man OUT OF THE CHURCH . How can a beater be seen any different than a murderer , or one who has his fathers wife .
PAUL would have booted a beater of his wife , OUT of the church . They would not have let the woman remarry , BUT they would have housed her in a safe place
and rebuked the man who is beating his wife . Once repentance occurred , THEN and only then would the man be let BACK into the church
and I bet even the marriage would be healed . Physically beating one is a sin . I don't see HOW IT AINT .
But today we got many sins going on , AND most these pastors wont correct , heck they support a lot of the sins now .
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Post by John on Nov 5, 2018 20:00:26 GMT -5
If church leadership isn't aware such things are taking place, they are not enablers. Do you know of cases where churches are siding with and covering up for the abusers, outside the RCC with priests?
Brother, I've heard many stories over the years of abused women approaching their churches for help and counsel with regard to abusive husbands, and they were just told to go home and submit to their husbands. Correct me if I'm wrong because I don't really know the dictionary definition of enabling, but that seems like it would be enabling an abuser. I have never heard any reports of spousal abuse being handled biblically...of the women being helped and protected and abusive husbands confronted and counselled and disciplined when necessary.
Here is something else to consider. What am I accomplishing by putting a guy out of the church and turning him over to Satan for spousal abuse? If that is all I do, then I have lost all influence with him. He is gone, and still in the home with his wife, but without the influence of the church. Most of these types of men would just become more enraged. The church is not qualified to protect someone in a place like this. Often times, the man will come after her regardless of anything we say, and all we had the power to do was put him out of the church. Honestly, I think we need to work towards stronger protections for those who are physically abused by people we know to be violent. Keep criminals behind bars without parole till trial if need be. Give them longer prison sentences. Come up with a type of relocation program like we do for those in witness protection. It all depends on the level of threat, but it is hard for me to look at the church as the primary problem here. It is more about the legal system to me.
I have heard people say that churches counseled women to go back to their husbands to be beaten up again, but I have never met a Pastor that did that. I would counsel them to call the police, but let me be straight forward about this from a practical standpoint. The laws are not adequate to protect victims of spousal abuse. We hear horror stories all the time about women who seek help, even get restraining orders, and wind up dead. Any help we give or advise might mean a death sentence. Look what happened to O.J. Simpson's ex-wife. That was a high profile case, but not uncommon. What happens if you place the woman in a shelter and her husband tracks her down anyway? I believe the solution is make the laws tougher. I am more than happy to consider other alternatives if you have some.
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Post by John on Nov 5, 2018 20:04:50 GMT -5
That is so sad sister watchful . no true christain man would be an habitual abuser , habitual sinner of any sort . Any pastoral man of GOD , would separate that man OUT OF THE CHURCH . How can a beater be seen any different than a murderer , or one who has his fathers wife . PAUL would have booted a beater of his wife , OUT of the church . They would not have let the woman remarry , BUT they would have housed her in a safe place and rebuked the man who is beating his wife . Once repentance occurred , THEN and only then would the man be let BACK into the church and I bet even the marriage would be healed . Physically beating one is a sin . I don't see HOW IT AINT . But today we got many sins going on , AND most these pastors wont correct , heck they support a lot of the sins now .
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Post by Abby-Joy on Nov 5, 2018 20:09:42 GMT -5
It's tragic how the church has been notoriously ineffective and even enabling when it comes to spousal and child abuse. It needs to be dealt with the same way any gross sins are to be dealt with in the church.....biblically. And the victims need to be sheltered and protected until such time as the abuser repents for real, the same as good Christians should and would try to help the victims of any crime. There are two major obstacles hindering the church in this area: 1) No consensus on what counts as abuse. 2) Sharp disagreement on whether an abuser can be rehabilitated. Some time ago, I was among a group of Christians when a man in our midst opened up about his personal life. He said his wife had left him. He'd been going through an emotional battle, had found himself unstable, and had hit her. She packed up and left. He'd remained loyal to her as he tried to win her back. No amount of apologizing or counseling was good enough for her to listen, though. I made the mistake of encouraging him that reconciliation was possible. Another woman in the group pounced on me like a tiger. Once an abuser, always an abuser, and I had no business being nice to such a monster. Needless to say, that was the end of this man being transparent with us. I've never attempted to help a young couple in public ever since.
When I was in my teens around age 16, and my parents were divorced... one day, my father called our house and I answered. He was drunk and suicidal. He said he didn't think God could ever forgive him for the things he'd done. The thing Holy Spirit gave me to tell him was the example of Paul who had been a murderer before his encounter with Jesus Christ! Some of you know what my father was. My father wasn't just a victimizer, but had first been a victim himself. It brings tears to my eyes!! The Lord allowed me the privilege of witnessing to my father many times over the years before he came to receive Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior ... a few months before he passed away in November of 2005.
When I was about 18, he came over while my mother was away at work. We had a restraining order against him so he wasn't allowed to come on our property. He was drunk (again). I talked him into giving me the keys so I could drive him around until he sobered (rather than him driving back home and having an accident). So I got into the car with him and as we were driving around back roads, he was going on about all his mistakes .... then he said, "Look at me, Abby." (I didn't want to look at him.) He said it again... "Look at me... " So I did. And that's when he said that he was sorry for the things he did. I said, "I forgive you dad... I forgave you a long time ago. And God will too, if you'll ask Him." He said, "I know He will... but I can't forgive myself... maybe someday..." I said... "Well, don't wait too long. I want you to be there when I get there!" My father was remorseful and wrestled with God for years... feeling that God couldn't forgive an abuser and unable to forgive himself. But thank God, He kept after him and my father did accept that forgiveness before it was too late. |
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Post by Abby-Joy on Nov 5, 2018 20:11:47 GMT -5
It's tragic how the church has been notoriously ineffective and even enabling when it comes to spousal and child abuse. It needs to be dealt with the same way any gross sins are to be dealt with in the church.....biblically. And the victims need to be sheltered and protected until such time as the abuser repents for real, the same as good Christians should and would try to help the victims of any crime. Mat 18:16-18 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 1Co 5:2-5 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
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Post by John on Nov 5, 2018 20:16:43 GMT -5
If church leadership isn't aware such things are taking place, they are not enablers. Do you know of cases where churches are siding with and covering up for the abusers, outside the RCC with priests?
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Post by John on Nov 5, 2018 20:19:20 GMT -5
If church leadership isn't aware such things are taking place, they are not enablers. Do you know of cases where churches are siding with and covering up for the abusers, outside the RCC with priests?
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