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Post by Abby-Joy on Nov 5, 2018 20:19:46 GMT -5
They did in the church we were in. They hid all sorts of abuse. :/ This was an "old time Pentecostal church."
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Post by Abby-Joy on Nov 5, 2018 20:26:28 GMT -5
They did in the church we were in. They hid all sorts of abuse. :/ This was an "old time Pentecostal church."
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Post by John on Nov 5, 2018 20:34:50 GMT -5
You were describing people that were plants. They weren't genuine Christians, and they actually supported this kind of conduct. That is despicable.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2018 20:36:18 GMT -5
That is so sad sister watchful . no true christain man would be an habitual abuser , habitual sinner of any sort . Any pastoral man of GOD , would separate that man OUT OF THE CHURCH . How can a beater be seen any different than a murderer , or one who has his fathers wife . PAUL would have booted a beater of his wife , OUT of the church . They would not have let the woman remarry , BUT they would have housed her in a safe place and rebuked the man who is beating his wife . Once repentance occurred , THEN and only then would the man be let BACK into the church and I bet even the marriage would be healed . Physically beating one is a sin . I don't see HOW IT AINT . But today we got many sins going on , AND most these pastors wont correct , heck they support a lot of the sins now . Amen. In the churches overall, gross sins just do not seem to get handled in the biblical way as far as I can tell, and this has been true for a very long time.....how long I don't know, maybe even ever since the RCC was instituted for all I know. I've just never heard of churches dealing with things biblically. So it's not surprising that spousal and child abuse likewise gets ignored or token lip service. It's all indicative of deep problems in the churches. |
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Post by Abby-Joy on Nov 5, 2018 20:37:38 GMT -5
Yes, they were more than plants, brother... this pastor founded that church and the entire organization they represented which is an international organization.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2018 20:49:36 GMT -5
Brother, I've heard many stories over the years of abused women approaching their churches for help and counsel with regard to abusive husbands, and they were just told to go home and submit to their husbands. Correct me if I'm wrong because I don't really know the dictionary definition of enabling, but that seems like it would be enabling an abuser. I have never heard any reports of spousal abuse being handled biblically...of the women being helped and protected and abusive husbands confronted and counselled and disciplined when necessary.
Here is something else to consider. What am I accomplishing by putting a guy out of the church and turning him over to Satan for spousal abuse? If that is all I do, then I have lost all influence with him. He is gone, and still in the home with his wife, but without the influence of the church. Most of these types of men would just become more enraged. The church is not qualified to protect someone in a place like this. Often times, the man will come after her regardless of anything we say, and all we had the power to do was put him out of the church. Honestly, I think we need to work towards stronger protections for those who are physically abused by people we know to be violent. Keep criminals behind bars without parole till trial if need be. Give them longer prison sentences. Come up with a type of relocation program like we do for those in witness protection. It all depends on the level of threat, but it is hard for me to look at the church as the primary problem here. It is more about the legal system to me.
I have heard people say that churches counseled women to go back to their husbands to be beaten up again, but I have never met a Pastor that did that. I would counsel them to call the police, but let me be straight forward about this from a practical standpoint. The laws are not adequate to protect victims of spousal abuse. We hear horror stories all the time about women who seek help, even get restraining orders, and wind up dead. Any help we give or advise might mean a death sentence. Look what happened to O.J. Simpson's ex-wife. That was a high profile case, but not uncommon. What happens if you place the woman in a shelter and her husband tracks her down anyway? I believe the solution is make the laws tougher. I am more than happy to consider other alternatives if you have some.
Butero, I don't think it's that complicated when we look at it biblically. No man has the right to assault his wife regardless of provocation, if any. That is simple. A wife is not a donkey, nor a child, nor the chattel of the husband. If God be for us who can be against us.....our job as the church is just to exercise His wisdom and exercise faith in handling things the way He says to in His word, while petitioning Him for the hoped-for outcome. |
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Post by John on Nov 6, 2018 6:41:45 GMT -5
In my opinion, if a physical assault has taken place, especially if it has occurred more than once, the police should have been brought in. It is not acceptable for a man to beat up his wife, or the wife to be physically abusive either. I am not sure that a Biblical solution is so clear, because I can't think of a specific scripture that mentions spousal abuse, and what constitutes spousal abuse. I know there are scriptures about husbands loving their wives as Christ loves the church, and that is something to point out. A man that beats up his wife is not showing her love. On the other hand, what led to this? Did she sin in some way too that led to this? Was she guilty of not obeying her husband as she is commanded to in the Bible? If she is, then from a purely Biblical point of view, you have to deal with both of their sins. In the case of assault, I think the cops need to be brought in, and the victim protected by someone who can actually put a stop to it. Throw the criminal in jail where he can't come back and harm his wife again. If the wife committed the assault, throw her in jail. I have no sympathy for criminal behavior, but from a purely Bible point of view, I have to consider the sins they both may have committed.
Here is something else to consider. What am I accomplishing by putting a guy out of the church and turning him over to Satan for spousal abuse? If that is all I do, then I have lost all influence with him. He is gone, and still in the home with his wife, but without the influence of the church. Most of these types of men would just become more enraged. The church is not qualified to protect someone in a place like this. Often times, the man will come after her regardless of anything we say, and all we had the power to do was put him out of the church. Honestly, I think we need to work towards stronger protections for those who are physically abused by people we know to be violent. Keep criminals behind bars without parole till trial if need be. Give them longer prison sentences. Come up with a type of relocation program like we do for those in witness protection. It all depends on the level of threat, but it is hard for me to look at the church as the primary problem here. It is more about the legal system to me.
I have heard people say that churches counseled women to go back to their husbands to be beaten up again, but I have never met a Pastor that did that. I would counsel them to call the police, but let me be straight forward about this from a practical standpoint. The laws are not adequate to protect victims of spousal abuse. We hear horror stories all the time about women who seek help, even get restraining orders, and wind up dead. Any help we give or advise might mean a death sentence. Look what happened to O.J. Simpson's ex-wife. That was a high profile case, but not uncommon. What happens if you place the woman in a shelter and her husband tracks her down anyway? I believe the solution is make the laws tougher. I am more than happy to consider other alternatives if you have some.
Butero, I don't think it's that complicated when we look at it biblically. No man has the right to assault his wife regardless of provocation, if any. That is simple. A wife is not a donkey, nor a child, nor the chattel of the husband. If God be for us who can be against us.....our job as the church is just to exercise His wisdom and exercise faith in handling things the way He says to in His word, while petitioning Him for the hoped-for outcome. The church doesn't operate like the legal system in the world. The police are the ones to call if an assault takes place, and let them deal with it. If it is a matter of sin, we have to look at what sins took place, on the part of the husband and wife. If the wife or husband did something sinful that led to the reaction they got, it does matter when it comes to church discipline. It does not matter in the eyes of the law. For instance, if the husband or wife was cheating, and the other person found out and in a fit of rage assaulted the other person, from the church's point of view, both did things worthy of being rebuked and possibly put out if need be. Everything, including patterns, remorse, and severity of the abuse has to be looked into. Was it a slap? Was it a punch? Was someone being choked? No, provocation doesn't give someone else the right to sin, in the same way two wrongs don't make a right, but sin is sin, and all wrong doing would have to be considered by the church leadership. I am a bit perplexed by your comparisons of the wife to a donkey and child. Since when is abuse of animals or children okay? Are we speaking of abuse, or are you making some other point? If we are speaking of abuse, this doesn't make sense. The woman was created by God for the man to be his help meet. She is in subjection to her husband, and if she is rebelling against his authority, that is a sin. Children are to be in subjection to their parents until they come of age, and when they rebel, they are in sin. That is not hard to see in the Bible. Are we talking about abuse or authority in the home? For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man CREATED FOR THE WOMAN, BUT THE WOMAN FOR THE MAN. 1 Corinthians 11:8,9
Notice what it says in Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will MAKE HIM A HELP MEET FOR HIM.That is why you may have churches telling women to go back and submit themselves to their husbands. It could be that from the sin side of things, they looked into the matter and saw fault on both sides, so they dealt with the sin issue. Even in the case of children, if the children are behaving badly, and they were brought to the church leadership, they would have to consider the why. Notice what it says in Ephesians 6:4 And, ye fathers, PROVOKE NOT YOUR CHILDREN TO WRATH: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.Again, I am not sure what your reason was for comparing the wife to a donkey or a child in reference to physical abuse. Even Balaam's ass had feelings. Abuse should never take place, period. It shouldn't take place with animals, children, servants or a spouse. Correction is not the same as abuse. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2018 7:39:32 GMT -5
I might have misunderstood you Butero, where you said this:
<< I am not sure that a Biblical solution is so clear, because I can't think of a specific scripture that mentions spousal abuse, and what constitutes spousal abuse. I know there are scriptures about husbands loving their wives as Christ loves the church, and that is something to point out. A man that beats up his wife is not showing her love. On the other hand, what led to this? Did she sin in some way too that led to this? Was she guilty of not obeying her husband as she is commanded to in the Bible? >>
It is one reason why some churches are confused as to how to deal with spousal abuse, they are in error concerning the standing of a wife and consider that husbands have the right to "discipline" their wives for "disobedience"... but I'm glad if I misunderstood your point!
So you are saying that sin on both sides should be dealt with....yes I agree in principle, and there can be a whole range of problems within a marriage that need a whole range of approaches.......but I was talking specifically about spousal abuse in this conversation. And just want to mention also that church discipline is brought to bear for gross sins, not minor sins. The church is not called to micro-manage the lives of its members....I wouldn't think the church should get involved or confront a wife for refusing her husband's request to cook his favourite meal on a given day, but if she was someone who habitually beat him with a rolling pin, then that needs to stop and the church could help in resolving that issue with her.
I believe involving the police should only be in a very extreme situation. If an abuser walked into the church and started trying to hit his spouse or anyone else, then surely a few men from the congregation could hold him or her down from hurting anybody and escort him or her out the doors. But if he or she came in brandishing a gun then in my opinion the police might need to be called in a situation like that.
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Post by John on Nov 6, 2018 7:49:57 GMT -5
I feel confident that you don't believe it is okay to abuse animals and children, so if you were only speaking of abuse Watchful, I am not sure why the comparison.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2018 7:54:28 GMT -5
And just to clarify, I'm talking about the church addressing a pattern of abusive behaviour, not a one time incident where someone lost control of themselves for whatever reason and pushed their spouse against a wall. And we need to be very clear that there is no biblical justification for husbands abusing their wives whatsoever....that confusion is one reason it doesn't get dealt with in the church. Did Jesus go around punching, kicking and intimidating and browbeating His disciples into submission? Or did He preach against such evils. With all the scriptures condemning violence, there needs to be no doubt or confusion about this at all.
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Post by John on Nov 6, 2018 8:01:14 GMT -5
And just to clarify, I'm talking about the church addressing a pattern of abusive behaviour, not a one time incident where someone lost control of themselves for whatever reason and pushed their spouse against a wall. And we need to be very clear that there is no biblical justification for husbands abusing their wives whatsoever....that confusion is one reason it doesn't get dealt with in the church. Did Jesus go around punching, kicking and intimidating and browbeating His disciples into submission? Or did He preach against such evils. With all the scriptures condemning violence, there needs to be no doubt or confusion about this at all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2018 8:03:44 GMT -5
I feel confident that you don't believe it is okay to abuse animals and children, so if you were only speaking of abuse Watchful, I am not sure why the comparison.
Because I thought you were bringing the idea that a husband is permitted to "discipline" his wife, like one might "discipline" a stubborn donkey with a stick to get it to go, or spank a defiant child. Is that what you are saying......or did I in fact misunderstand you here brother? << A man that beats up his wife is not showing her love. On the other hand, what led to this? Did she sin in some way too that led to this? Was she guilty of not obeying her husband as she is commanded to in the Bible? >> |
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Post by John on Nov 6, 2018 8:13:48 GMT -5
I feel confident that you don't believe it is okay to abuse animals and children, so if you were only speaking of abuse Watchful, I am not sure why the comparison.
Because I thought you were bringing the idea that a husband is permitted to "discipline" his wife, like one might "discipline" a stubborn donkey with a stick to get it to go, or spank a defiant child. Is that what you are saying......or did I in fact misunderstand you here brother? << A man that beats up his wife is not showing her love. On the other hand, what led to this? Did she sin in some way too that led to this? Was she guilty of not obeying her husband as she is commanded to in the Bible? >>
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Nov 6, 2018 8:29:01 GMT -5
This is a big reason why the church tends to avoid the topic of domestic abuse. It's extremely messy. There are so many variables and possible scenarios, and there is so much disagreement on what is abusive.
Is it abuse for a man to toss his dinner plate against the wall and stomp out to buy himself a hamburger? What if he did that because his wife was out socializing all day and then she made him ramen noodles for dinner? What if he stays gone for two hours to get that hamburger? And what if she starts obsessively texting/calling to demand that he come home? And what if he reluctantly goes home, just wanting to go to bed, but she resumes her interrogation? What if he then tells her to mind her own business? What if she grabs his phone and they start wrestling over it?
A scenario such as this happens every day among young couples. Two people who are both immature who can't handle conflict.
How much abuse is this? How can the church resolve it, short of someone on the ministry team moving in with them?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2018 8:59:30 GMT -5
Because I thought you were bringing the idea that a husband is permitted to "discipline" his wife, like one might "discipline" a stubborn donkey with a stick to get it to go, or spank a defiant child. Is that what you are saying......or did I in fact misunderstand you here brother? << A man that beats up his wife is not showing her love. On the other hand, what led to this? Did she sin in some way too that led to this? Was she guilty of not obeying her husband as she is commanded to in the Bible? >>
I believe very simply that a man beating his wife is serious business and requires some serious intervention where there is no real repentance and the behaviour doesn't stop. Hmmm....okay brother....you weren't suggesting he could take a rod to her....I'm glad to hear that, but would you please clarify what you are suggesting then? Hope I'm wrong but you seem to be hinting that some level of physical discipline is appropriate....? If so, how much and when? All the scriptures about how we are to live and behave towards one another......do they suddenly become nullified within a marriage? Even the one about not lording it over anyone like the Gentiles (unbelievers) do. Does Jesus intimidate and force the church into obedience? No....because His ways are not man's ways, they are higher. I'm thinking about the MYSTERY of how Christianity (and Judaism) in the wrong hands has always been a dangerous thing. |
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