PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Nov 6, 2018 9:09:32 GMT -5
Here's some clean comedy that brings a bit of levity into a serious issue...
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Nov 6, 2018 9:29:40 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting he could take a rod to her. I was meaning that when we are talking about degree of discipline, all the circumstances must be considered. Putting someone out of the church is serious business and a last resort.
I believe very simply that a man beating his wife is serious business and requires some serious intervention where there is no real repentance and the behaviour doesn't stop. Hmmm....okay brother....you weren't suggesting he could take a rod to her....I'm glad to hear that, but would you please clarify what you are suggesting then? Hope I'm wrong but you seem to be hinting that some level of physical discipline is appropriate....? If so, how much and when? All the scriptures about how we are to live and behave towards one another......do they suddenly become nullified within a marriage? Even the one about not lording it over anyone like the Gentiles (unbelievers) do. Does Jesus intimidate and force the church into obedience? No....because His ways are not man's ways, they are higher. I'm thinking about the MYSTERY of how Christianity (and Judaism) in the wrong hands has always been a dangerous thing.
I don't think physical force is the way to go, but clearly the Bible doesn't address something like a husband putting his wife over his knee like a child, like I have seen in old comedies like "I Love Lucy." I wouldn't call that spousal abuse, but I don't normally hear of things like that. Battering is usually beating up. And I do not believe that general rules that apply to the church at large always apply in the marriage, anymore than wives are in subjection to someone just because it is a male.
By the way, I am not promoting spanking in marriage. I am just talking about where things cross the line and become abuse. I saw a woman slap her husband hard across the face, and while such behavior is wrong, I wouldn't automatically label her an abuser, or her husband either if he slapped her back. People in those places need marriage counseling.
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Nov 6, 2018 9:35:44 GMT -5
Here's some clean comedy that brings a bit of levity into a serious issue...
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Nov 6, 2018 11:49:07 GMT -5
What is so crazy about this topic is if everyone simply followed God's Word about marital relations, we wouldn't be having to deal with this kind of subject. What we are dealing with, and other marriage problems is the result of what happens when we try to do things our own way, rather than God's ways. It doesn't work. This shows the need for Biblical instruction before people get married so they completely understand what God says on the subject, and a willingness for both partners to obey God's Word.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Nov 6, 2018 12:01:52 GMT -5
Our society has gotten so far away from Biblical standards that most of the church doesn't even know how to give good counsel.
|
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Nov 6, 2018 17:29:48 GMT -5
JESUS even said , IF one smite you on the face , offer the other cheek.
IN no way is beating acceptable .
We do what we do with any sin . When it is found out get two or three witnesses and go to work .
And if the wrong doer does not hear , TAKE it to the church and if the beater does not hear , YOU CAST THEM OUT of the church , TILL repentance is made .
We got to keep JESUS PATTERN. IF a spouse is a striker , let the other one counsel , BUT if they heed not the counsling , Take two or three witnesses .
IF the beater heeds not them , TAKE it before the church . AND if heed not the church , LET him or her be as a pagan unto you .
WE DO it with sin . We are not even to be railers , SO why on earth would STRIKING be acceptable . IT AINT .
The whipping rod is for children . It seems this would be so easy to see . Let us pray .
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Nov 7, 2018 7:57:46 GMT -5
JESUS even said , IF one smite you on the face , offer the other cheek. IN no way is beating acceptable . We do what we do with any sin . When it is found out get two or three witnesses and go to work . And if the wrong doer does not hear , TAKE it to the church and if the beater does not hear , YOU CAST THEM OUT of the church , TILL repentance is made . We got to keep JESUS PATTERN. IF a spouse is a striker , let the other one counsel , BUT if they heed not the counsling , Take two or three witnesses . IF the beater heeds not them , TAKE it before the church . AND if heed not the church , LET him or her be as a pagan unto you . WE DO it with sin . We are not even to be railers , SO why on earth would STRIKING be acceptable . IT AINT . The whipping rod is for children . It seems this would be so easy to see . Let us pray .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 9:54:09 GMT -5
Our society has gotten so far away from Biblical standards that most of the church doesn't even know how to give good counsel. So true sister......the devil is always hard at work, muddying the waters, hardening hearts, confusing the simple, turning living truth into religiosity etc, etc. It's a spiritual battle for sure. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 10:49:05 GMT -5
JESUS even said , IF one smite you on the face , offer the other cheek. IN no way is beating acceptable . We do what we do with any sin . When it is found out get two or three witnesses and go to work . And if the wrong doer does not hear , TAKE it to the church and if the beater does not hear , YOU CAST THEM OUT of the church , TILL repentance is made . We got to keep JESUS PATTERN. IF a spouse is a striker , let the other one counsel , BUT if they heed not the counsling , Take two or three witnesses . IF the beater heeds not them , TAKE it before the church . AND if heed not the church , LET him or her be as a pagan unto you . WE DO it with sin . We are not even to be railers , SO why on earth would STRIKING be acceptable . IT AINT . The whipping rod is for children . It seems this would be so easy to see . Let us pray .
I honestly don't know how seriously to take you on this Butero....the biggest issue with spousal abuse in general is that of safety. And we have to keep in mind the unequal strength and authority with regard to a husband and a wife in most instances. It is more abusive for the one with the greater strength and authority in the household to hit the weaker one.....it's an abuse of power. I think most of us kind of know that on an instinctive level, or should. Especially if a wife is dependent on the husband for food and shelter etc and has the added burden of children to rear and care for....it is not easy for her to escape danger if it lurking in her own nest, women are generally more trapped and vulnerable emotionally and physically than a man is when it comes to domestic abuse. Well that said, these are my thoughts on your scenario......a woman should not hit her husband, of course it is wrong. If she is sorry and it's not likely to be repeated then enough said. If it's a recurring problem then, any sisters in the Lord who are aware of it should bring it up with her and try to help her see it for the wrong that it is, and try to give some sisterly or motherly counsel regarding her temper, etc. Cultural considerations might apply...some cultures seem to be more physically expressive of emotion than others....not saying it's right but it can have a bearing on how it is received...whether the man felt threatened in the situation or not, or whether he was physically injured or not. If the man is in danger and needs the help of the church, then by all means he should be helped and it should be escalated according to scripture...though I personally don't feel it needs to be formal but rather in a familial way. Thinking of church in terms of family rather than a formal organization with court proceedings. |
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Nov 7, 2018 11:01:03 GMT -5
Here is a question regarding something I witnessed as a child. A husband and wife were arguing, and the wife slapped her husband in the face. I saw this twice, but it wasn't habitual to my knowledge. Should he have brought this up before the church, or just taken it? He did not retaliate. What if it was the husband slapping his wife? What if he slapped her back? Does this rise to the level of needing church intervention? Why or why not?
BUTERO asked this .
So lets examine this by the true pattern.
IN this case FIRST IF the one who did the evil REPENTS , Forgive . AND ITS SETTLED . their is NO NEED to bring this to other witnesses
IF the one in error hears and repents . ALREADY SOLVED .
ITS if the wife , did not repent , keeps doing it , He needs to go and get two other witneses , THEN let it be witnessed .
IF she repents and agrees She was in error and repents of her evil , CASE CLOSED , their is no need to bring it to the church .
IF she hears not and remains stubborn , TAKE it before the church , if she hears and repents AMEN , if not , CAST HER OUT .
the same with a husband who does this to his wife .
IF WE KEEP JESUS PATTERN, we will find out , OFTEN IT WORKS ON STEP ONE , if not ON STEP TWO , if not then on three
AND if not and she is cast out , Even then LATER Some repent and are welcome back in when they do .
ITS so simple . LETS JUST KEEP JESUS PATTERN IN ALL THINGS .
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Nov 7, 2018 11:09:49 GMT -5
Here is a question regarding something I witnessed as a child. A husband and wife were arguing, and the wife slapped her husband in the face. I saw this twice, but it wasn't habitual to my knowledge. Should he have brought this up before the church, or just taken it? He did not retaliate. What if it was the husband slapping his wife? What if he slapped her back? Does this rise to the level of needing church intervention? Why or why not?
I honestly don't know how seriously to take you on this Butero....the biggest issue with spousal abuse in general is that of safety. And we have to keep in mind the unequal strength and authority with regard to a husband and a wife in most instances. It is more abusive for the one with the greater strength and authority in the household to hit the weaker one.....it's an abuse of power. I think most of us kind of know that on an instinctive level, or should. Especially if a wife is dependent on the husband for food and shelter etc and has the added burden of children to rear and care for....it is not easy for her to escape danger if it lurking in her own nest, women are generally more trapped and vulnerable emotionally and physically than a man is when it comes to domestic abuse. Well that said, these are my thoughts on your scenario......a woman should not hit her husband, of course it is wrong. If she is sorry and it's not likely to be repeated then enough said. If it's a recurring problem then, any sisters in the Lord who are aware of it should bring it up with her and try to help her see it for the wrong that it is, and try to give some sisterly or motherly counsel regarding her temper, etc. Cultural considerations might apply...some cultures seem to be more physically expressive of emotion than others....not saying it's right but it can have a bearing on how it is received...whether the man felt threatened in the situation or not, or whether he was physically injured or not. If the man is in danger and needs the help of the church, then by all means he should be helped and it should be escalated according to scripture...though I personally don't feel it needs to be formal but rather in a familial way. Thinking of church in terms of family rather than a formal organization with court proceedings.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Nov 7, 2018 11:46:14 GMT -5
This is where the fundamental disagreement emerges. I believe in absolute moral equivalency on the topic of abuse. If a woman drives her husband into alcoholism because she destroyed his self-esteem, she might as well have punched him in the gut. So what if she can't physically hurt him; she can certainly destroy him. I don't see it as an issue of safety so much as an issue of control and domination. Men use physical violence to control a situation. That is almost always the root of abuse.
Some women can get into a slapping match with a man and think nothing of it. To them it's not abuse. I've seen couples have knock-down dragouts that were mostly for fun. This is what makes it incredibly difficult to define domestic abuse.
|
|
|
|
Post by Abby-Joy on Nov 7, 2018 12:26:59 GMT -5
I honestly don't know how seriously to take you on this Butero....the biggest issue with spousal abuse in general is that of safety. And we have to keep in mind the unequal strength and authority with regard to a husband and a wife in most instances. It is more abusive for the one with the greater strength and authority in the household to hit the weaker one.....it's an abuse of power. I think most of us kind of know that on an instinctive level, or should. Especially if a wife is dependent on the husband for food and shelter etc and has the added burden of children to rear and care for....it is not easy for her to escape danger if it lurking in her own nest, women are generally more trapped and vulnerable emotionally and physically than a man is when it comes to domestic abuse. Well that said, these are my thoughts on your scenario......a woman should not hit her husband, of course it is wrong. If she is sorry and it's not likely to be repeated then enough said. If it's a recurring problem then, any sisters in the Lord who are aware of it should bring it up with her and try to help her see it for the wrong that it is, and try to give some sisterly or motherly counsel regarding her temper, etc. Cultural considerations might apply...some cultures seem to be more physically expressive of emotion than others....not saying it's right but it can have a bearing on how it is received...whether the man felt threatened in the situation or not, or whether he was physically injured or not. If the man is in danger and needs the help of the church, then by all means he should be helped and it should be escalated according to scripture...though I personally don't feel it needs to be formal but rather in a familial way. Thinking of church in terms of family rather than a formal organization with court proceedings.
I've seen women belittle their husbands in front of me and other people. And I've heard women tell me things about their husbands they don't like that are just plain silly (which amounts to disrespect) ... it always makes me cringe! |
|
|
|
Post by Abby-Joy on Nov 7, 2018 12:29:23 GMT -5
This is where the fundamental disagreement emerges. I believe in absolute moral equivalency on the topic of abuse. If a woman drives her husband into alcoholism because she destroyed his self-esteem, she might as well have punched him in the gut. So what if she can't physically hurt him; she can certainly destroy him. I don't see it as an issue of safety so much as an issue of control and domination. Men use physical violence to control a situation. That is almost always the root of abuse. Some women can get into a slapping match with a man and think nothing of it. To them it's not abuse. I've seen couples have knock-down dragouts that were mostly for fun. This is what makes it incredibly difficult to define domestic abuse. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 16:38:57 GMT -5
How easily things can become confused, and even devolve into absurdity sometimes, especially on the internet. I came into this conversation talking about women who are habitually abused and suffer physical injuries and who need a place of refuge from their abusive husbands.... and how the church has a dismal track record of dealing with spousal abuse properly and effectively...of dealing with it at all actually, in most cases that I have heard of. It's a serious problem in the church and I believe deserves a serious look, and doesn't deserve to be deflected from and befuddled.
Others have brought in all kinds of other situations and grey areas...women abusing husbands, one-time loss of temper situations, emotional abuse etc...to which I say all those situations need to be dealt with accordingly in a range of ways....yes with common sense and wisdom, of course. And if people don't have the sense to know the difference between a woman in a grave situation and a simple domestic spat then we are in trouble, aren't we. Repeated blatant violent crimes committed by a member against their spouse certainly does need to be addressed by the church and help given to the victim of such crimes when needed. A man "spanking" his wife is an assault...he is hitting, hurting and making her afraid of him, plain and simple, not to mention demeaning her. I don't think "I Love Lucy" has anything to teach the follower of Christ, and there is nothing remotely funny about a man hitting his wife.
That's all I have to say, thanks for hearing me out. Parts of this conversation unfortunately have only served to prove my point unfortunately.
|
|
