PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Nov 7, 2018 18:15:14 GMT -5
Just for the record, I’ve done my share of trying to help battered women. I know what it’s like to move heaven and earth to help a woman find a place to stay, only to watch her return home two days later. I know what it’s like to have an abused woman stand in my living room and tell me lies about her boyfriend never coming around again. I’ve also personally witnessed a woman admit to fabricating stories in an effort to extort money.
I’ve watched women lie, exaggerate, cry crocodile tears, use children as weapons, and move in a new toxic boyfriend when the child support runs out.
I’ve also seen men with serious mental disorders who came from abusive childhoods, who had the nerve to admit that they made some mistakes, only to be drummed out of church fellowship because they were apparent cowards, dictators, and apostates.
This discussion is far from absurd for me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 6:59:17 GMT -5
I'm not a feminist....to me it is not a matter of competition between the sexes. The Lord began to teach me through real life many years ago before I knew Him, when I became a single mother at the age of 21 in 1979. "Doth not even nature teach you.." It should, and the Lord was gracious to begin teaching me way back then and humbling and preparing my heart for Him seven years later. There's plenty enough of sin and wrong to go around for both sexes. But I had just hoped to highlight a particular problem within the church and point out some wisdom in scripture regarding how we should deal with issues of wife battering as well as child abuse. In the kingdom of darkness the strong prey on the weak, the law of the jungle prevails there, and this ought not to be allowed to flourish in the kingdom of light, but let the light dispel it. "Let this sin not once be named among you as becometh saints." (applied to any sin of an appalling nature) Amen.
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Post by John on Nov 8, 2018 8:43:02 GMT -5
How easily things can become confused, and even devolve into absurdity sometimes, especially on the internet. I came into this conversation talking about women who are habitually abused and suffer physical injuries and who need a place of refuge from their abusive husbands.... and how the church has a dismal track record of dealing with spousal abuse properly and effectively...of dealing with it at all actually, in most cases that I have heard of. It's a serious problem in the church and I believe deserves a serious look, and doesn't deserve to be deflected from and befuddled. Others have brought in all kinds of other situations and grey areas...women abusing husbands, one-time loss of temper situations, emotional abuse etc...to which I say all those situations need to be dealt with accordingly in a range of ways....yes with common sense and wisdom, of course. And if people don't have the sense to know the difference between a woman in a grave situation and a simple domestic spat then we are in trouble, aren't we. Repeated blatant violent crimes committed by a member against their spouse certainly does need to be addressed by the church and help given to the victim of such crimes when needed. A man "spanking" his wife is an assault...he is hitting, hurting and making her afraid of him, plain and simple, not to mention demeaning her. I don't think "I Love Lucy" has anything to teach the follower of Christ, and there is nothing remotely funny about a man hitting his wife. That's all I have to say, thanks for hearing me out. Parts of this conversation unfortunately have only served to prove my point unfortunately.
When it comes to actual cases of domestic violence, I have never had anyone come to me when I was Pastoring a church with a situation like that, however I do know of a woman I suspected was being abused when I was a member of a Church of God. The problem was that the woman never openly admitted to being abused, and her husband wasn't a sincere Christian. If the church had told him to leave and not come back, it wouldn't have made any difference. He would have just left. He only came to church because his wife was attending. The best equipped people to deal with that would be the police, but his wife would have to come forward and be willing to file charges. She wouldn't do it. There is also a case involving a Pastor's wife in an independent church that I believe was being assaulted, but her husband owns the church and has no accountability to anyone, so where does someone like that go? In addition, she would never come forward either. In these cases, I am speaking of serious things like a black eye and broken arm.
You stated that in a church, if an angry and out of control husband came storming in, three or four big men could handle him. What if he has a weapon? That is not uncommon. My brother is a police officer, and some of the most dangerous cases he encounters are domestics. They are extremely personal and people get violent. So we take each issue on a case by case basis. Unless the man who is violent is a dedicated Christian who will pay attention to the church leadership, I don't see how simply turning him over to Satan will help his wife. He has to be locked up, and I fully support efforts to keep a truly battered woman safe. I would never advise a woman in that place to go home and just submit to her husband. Many of these men are violent even without being provoked. Some are drunks. Some will go crazy if dinner is 5 minutes late or something is a little bit burnt. You can't advise a woman to go back into a mess like that. I would advise her to go to the police.
If the husband and wife were seriously wanting to work things out and the husband was open to it, I would certainly meet with them to try to give them Biblical counsel, but the church isn't equipped to stop serious domestic violence, and I don't think most of the churches are enabling abuse. Some may be. There may be some that believe the husband should beat his wife to punish her for disobedience. That is just plain wrong. But there are so many different kinds of situations we could encounter, and what one considers abuse another does not, and we also need to consider how our actions could make things worse and put someone in more danger. This is a very serious subject, and I have no problem discussing it, and trying to find solutions, but from my experience and observations, I don't see this as something you can just easily solve by bringing the husband before the church leadership.
This is different from domestic violence, but concerns church leadership. I encountered a woman who was having a serious issue with her husband where he invited his ex-wife and her lesbian lover to live with them. His wife objects, but he won't make them leave. He is part of a church, and I advised her to take this matter to the church leadership to help resolve it. She told me that even though he likes the church, he refuses to do that, and even if they threatened to put him out, he wouldn't listen to them. He would just stay away from the church and do as he was doing. Most people like that are self-willed. Yes, you showed him. You put him out of the church, but the woman is no better off for it. But if they choose to come to the church for judgment, the church will have to follow Biblical guidelines, consider all sins being committed and do their best to follow what the Bible says. I would be willing to put a man out of the church for domestic abuse if that is the course of action the wife wanted to take, but from a practical standpoint, she would be better off to go to the police. But from my standpoint, I would follow scripture to the letter as best I could after obtaining all the facts, and fully knowing both sides of what was happening.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Nov 8, 2018 8:57:20 GMT -5
I'm not a feminist....to me it is not a matter of competition between the sexes. The Lord began to teach me through real life many years ago before I knew Him, when I became a single mother at the age of 21 in 1979. "Doth not even nature teach you.." It should, and the Lord was gracious to begin teaching me way back then and humbling and preparing my heart for Him seven years later. There's plenty enough of sin and wrong to go around for both sexes. But I had just hoped to highlight a particular problem within the church and point out some wisdom in scripture regarding how we should deal with issues of wife battering as well as child abuse. In the kingdom of darkness the strong prey on the weak, the law of the jungle prevails there, and this ought not to be allowed to flourish in the kingdom of light, but let the light dispel it. "Let this sin not once be named among you as becometh saints." (applied to any sin of an appalling nature) Amen. Watchful sister, I think we seem to be talking past each other. When there is a legitimate case of a spouse whose life is in danger, of course those around are obliged to help. No reasonable person would say otherwise. If you're asking why the church seems to be standoffish, though, we're trying to explain the obstacles. Yes the church has its weaknesses, but there are indeed practical objections and life experiences that many church leaders can't ignore. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 9:42:59 GMT -5
I'm not a feminist....to me it is not a matter of competition between the sexes. The Lord began to teach me through real life many years ago before I knew Him, when I became a single mother at the age of 21 in 1979. "Doth not even nature teach you.." It should, and the Lord was gracious to begin teaching me way back then and humbling and preparing my heart for Him seven years later. There's plenty enough of sin and wrong to go around for both sexes. But I had just hoped to highlight a particular problem within the church and point out some wisdom in scripture regarding how we should deal with issues of wife battering as well as child abuse. In the kingdom of darkness the strong prey on the weak, the law of the jungle prevails there, and this ought not to be allowed to flourish in the kingdom of light, but let the light dispel it. "Let this sin not once be named among you as becometh saints." (applied to any sin of an appalling nature) Amen. Watchful sister, I think we seem to be talking past each other. When there is a legitimate case of a spouse whose life is in danger, of course those around are obliged to help. No reasonable person would say otherwise. If you're asking why the church seems to be standoffish, though, we're trying to explain the obstacles. Yes the church has its weaknesses, but there are indeed practical objections and life experiences that many church leaders can't ignore. Yes we have been talking past each other and that is what I meant when things become absurd.......the thing is we need to understand we are not wrestling with flesh and blood with this issue but spiritual wickedness in high places.....it's a spiritual problem in the church, rather than a logical one. The devil would throw sand up in our eyes to keep us from seeing the simple truth of God's word and instruction. |
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Nov 8, 2018 9:49:43 GMT -5
Watchful sister, I think we seem to be talking past each other. When there is a legitimate case of a spouse whose life is in danger, of course those around are obliged to help. No reasonable person would say otherwise. If you're asking why the church seems to be standoffish, though, we're trying to explain the obstacles. Yes the church has its weaknesses, but there are indeed practical objections and life experiences that many church leaders can't ignore. Yes we have been talking past each other and that is what I meant when things become absurd.......the thing is we need to understand we are not wrestling with flesh and blood with this issue but spiritual wickedness in high places.....it's a spiritual problem in the church, rather than a logical one. The devil would throw sand up in our eyes to keep us from seeing the simple truth of God's word and instruction. You believe the spiritual problem is that the church still treats women like cattle? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 10:03:03 GMT -5
<< Spanking is not an assault, lest it would be an assault when a parent spanks their child. It may be demeaning, but it hardly constitutes domestic violence, which is why I gave that example. >>
That is very troubling Butero, that you wouldn't consider a man perpetrating violence against his wife in this manner to be assault and abuse. It would be a sick situation, and of course it is violence and abuse...a man hitting his wife is abusive and wrong, whether he hits her in the stomach, in the face, in the chest or on the buttocks.
A woman grown up enough to be married is not a child or a donkey.....to be hit by her husband wounds her soul as well as her body. Whereas a child being disciplined (properly and justly) does not either injure them physically or wound their soul. And a man who hits his wife anywhere has just placed the marriage on a footing of fear and intimidation rather than of love and trust....it would then need to be healed through repentance and forgiveness. A couple might do this between themselves of course where there is remorse for the violence. But if the hitting continues then it's time to get help, and the Lord has ordained His Body the church to help. Some might disagree but I would only involve the law in an extreme emergency that went beyond my faith...we are not to put God to the test. Don't we know that we will judge angels....so it is not good when the church lacks Godly wisdom to judge in domestic abuse situations that occur within the body of believers.
A husband is to dwell with his wife according to knowledge and part of that knowledge involves understanding she is the weaker sex and the imbalance of power that exists between a husband and wife generally.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 10:06:46 GMT -5
Yes we have been talking past each other and that is what I meant when things become absurd.......the thing is we need to understand we are not wrestling with flesh and blood with this issue but spiritual wickedness in high places.....it's a spiritual problem in the church, rather than a logical one. The devil would throw sand up in our eyes to keep us from seeing the simple truth of God's word and instruction. You believe the spiritual problem is that the church still treats women like cattle? That's not what I'm saying. The devil comes to steal, kill and destroy. And the heart is deceptively wicked, who can know it. Unredeemed areas of hearts are exploited by the enemy. I think we all are aware that flesh still rules and reigns in most churches today. |
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Post by John on Nov 8, 2018 19:57:34 GMT -5
<< Spanking is not an assault, lest it would be an assault when a parent spanks their child. It may be demeaning, but it hardly constitutes domestic violence, which is why I gave that example. >> That is very troubling Butero, that you wouldn't consider a man perpetrating violence against his wife in this manner to be assault and abuse. It would be a sick situation, and of course it is violence and abuse...a man hitting his wife is abusive and wrong, whether he hits her in the stomach, in the face, in the chest or on the buttocks. A woman grown up enough to be married is not a child or a donkey.....to be hit by her husband wounds her soul as well as her body. Whereas a child being disciplined (properly and justly) does not either injure them physically or wound their soul. And a man who hits his wife anywhere has just placed the marriage on a footing of fear and intimidation rather than of love and trust....it would then need to be healed through repentance and forgiveness. A couple might do this between themselves of course where there is remorse for the violence. But if the hitting continues then it's time to get help, and the Lord has ordained His Body the church to help. Some might disagree but I would only involve the law in an extreme emergency that went beyond my faith...we are not to put God to the test. Don't we know that we will judge angels....so it is not good when the church lacks Godly wisdom to judge in domestic abuse situations that occur within the body of believers. A husband is to dwell with his wife according to knowledge and part of that knowledge involves understanding she is the weaker sex and the imbalance of power that exists between a husband and wife generally.
As I stated before, I am not advocating any physical confrontations between a husband and wife, but your position doesn't make any sense as far as physical harm goes. You are simply saying she is an adult, so you don't believe such actions are right, but that doesn't make it physical abuse, nor does it mean it does her physical harm. You were also making light of a woman slapping her husband because she is weaker and can't do any real harm. You said that sure it was wrong, but you didn't think it was the same as a man slapping his wife.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 3:32:35 GMT -5
I'm going to rest my case at this point brother. I truly don't have the stomach to go into the disturbing details of the difference between a man attacking his wife and a parent disciplining their child. You will have to ask the Lord.
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Post by John on Nov 9, 2018 7:27:32 GMT -5
I'm going to rest my case at this point brother. I truly don't have the stomach to go into the disturbing details of the difference between a man attacking his wife and a parent disciplining their child. You will have to ask the Lord.
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Post by John on Nov 9, 2018 9:32:34 GMT -5
This is a big reason why the church tends to avoid the topic of domestic abuse. It's extremely messy. There are so many variables and possible scenarios, and there is so much disagreement on what is abusive. Is it abuse for a man to toss his dinner plate against the wall and stomp out to buy himself a hamburger? What if he did that because his wife was out socializing all day and then she made him ramen noodles for dinner? What if he stays gone for two hours to get that hamburger? And what if she starts obsessively texting/calling to demand that he come home? And what if he reluctantly goes home, just wanting to go to bed, but she resumes her interrogation? What if he then tells her to mind her own business? What if she grabs his phone and they start wrestling over it? A scenario such as this happens every day among young couples. Two people who are both immature who can't handle conflict. How much abuse is this? How can the church resolve it, short of someone on the ministry team moving in with them?
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Post by John on Nov 15, 2018 10:44:00 GMT -5
I closed this thread because I saw it becoming more emotion based, rather than dealing in facts, which will ultimately lead to personal attacks. Nearly all of us has known someone in an abusive relationship or will be faced with having someone approach us for help. For that reason, I am unlocking this thread with the hope we can come up with practical solutions to assist those who are in danger. No two people seem to fully agree on what constitutes abuse, but we all agree there are people we will come in contact with whose life is threatened by an abusive spouse.
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