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Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 14:53:21 GMT -5
Really? Who then (ever) COULD keep it ? (TORAH) "Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:10 "Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love..." - Ephesians 5:1-2 "For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”" - Romans 13:9 "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." - 1 John 4:8 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." - Matthew 7:12People hurt one another daily. They do not imitate God. They commit adultery , often for years without ever repenting, They murder and steal daily, often for years, for decades even, without ever repenting. They bear false witness, and covet daily, with no remorse nor shame nor guilt, often for decades without repenting. They also, while sinning daily, without ever repenting, SAY THEY LOVE OTHERS...... and of course, THEY THINK GOD APPROVES of their lifetime of sins! Yes, Finally, they do not truthfully love (they do not even know what love is, that God requires.) Thus, they do not know God. And they daily condemn and put to death the true children of God, the true followers of Jesus, as they did to the prophets of old who God sent; even as they also did /do to Jesus.
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Post by John on May 29, 2019 15:14:49 GMT -5
Look carefully at what I said. Did Jesus say they couldn't keep it or didn't keep it?
Don't have to look carefully. They both couldn't keep it, AND didn't keep it. Thus the question - WHO COULD (EVER) KEEP IT ? It does matter, because unless you can show scripture where Jesus told the Pharisees that they couldn't keep the law, I am correct in what I said.
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Post by joseph on May 30, 2019 14:51:31 GMT -5
Galatians 4:4 but when the appointed time arrived, God sent forth his Son. He was born from a woman, born into a culture in which legalistic perversion of the Torah was the norm,
Romans 8:7 For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God’s Torah — indeed, it cannot.
Romans 3:27 So what room is left for boasting? None at all! What kind of Torah excludes it? One that has to do with legalistic observance of rules? No, rather, a Torah that has to do with trusting.
Romans 3:20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are.
i.e. not only the Pharisees, but no one could keep TORAH.
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Post by John on May 30, 2019 16:30:17 GMT -5
Galatians 4:4 but when the appointed time arrived, God sent forth his Son. He was born from a woman, born into a culture in which legalistic perversion of the Torah was the norm, Romans 8:7 For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God’s Torah — indeed, it cannot. Romans 3:27 So what room is left for boasting? None at all! What kind of Torah excludes it? One that has to do with legalistic observance of rules? No, rather, a Torah that has to do with trusting. Romans 3:20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are. i.e. not only the Pharisees, but no one could keep TORAH. I said that Jesus never said that it wasn't possible to keep the law. You are free to use it, but that is one awful translation. That looks like some kind of terrible paraphrase! I wouldn't go by anything in that version. I don't trust it at all.
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Post by joseph on May 30, 2019 16:33:16 GMT -5
Galatians 4:4 but when the appointed time arrived, God sent forth his Son. He was born from a woman, born into a culture in which legalistic perversion of the Torah was the norm, Romans 8:7 For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God’s Torah — indeed, it cannot. Romans 3:27 So what room is left for boasting? None at all! What kind of Torah excludes it? One that has to do with legalistic observance of rules? No, rather, a Torah that has to do with trusting. Romans 3:20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are. i.e. not only the Pharisees, but no one could keep TORAH. I said that Jesus never said that it wasn't possible to keep the law. You are free to use it, but that is one awful translation. That looks like some kind of terrible paraphrase! I wouldn't go by anything in that version. I don't trust it at all.
Actually, it is one of the closest to the original - The Complete Jewish Bible. Complements (quotes from) Biblegateway. Much less so-called paraphrasing than in most English versions, and much closer in many ways to the original meaning (not even always available in most English translations). In most 'normal' English Bibles, it is not even obvious where TORAH is plainly stated. (more often in New Testament, btw, than in the Old Testament) As mankind moves further and further from TORAH, fewer people know the truth of and from God's Word.
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Post by John on May 30, 2019 16:36:53 GMT -5
I said that Jesus never said that it wasn't possible to keep the law. You are free to use it, but that is one awful translation. That looks like some kind of terrible paraphrase! I wouldn't go by anything in that version. I don't trust it at all.
Actually, it is one of the closest to the original - The Complete Jewish Bible. Complements (quotes from) Biblegateway. Much less so-called paraphrasing than in most English versions, and much closer in many ways to the original meaning (not even always available in most English translations). To each his own, but I will stick with my KJV Bible.
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Post by joseph on May 30, 2019 16:42:42 GMT -5
Actually, it is one of the closest to the original - The Complete Jewish Bible. Complements (quotes from) Biblegateway. Much less so-called paraphrasing than in most English versions, and much closer in many ways to the original meaning (not even always available in most English translations). To each his own, but I will stick with my KJV Bible.
I prefer better accuracy myself. Can you show anything inaccurate in the post /verses / you quoted ? Can you show any of those verses with better accuracy in your KJV ? (or any other Bible/ word study) ?
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Post by John on May 30, 2019 16:46:07 GMT -5
To each his own, but I will stick with my KJV Bible.
I prefer better accuracy myself. Can you show anything inaccurate in the post /verses / you quoted ? Can you show any of those verses with better accuracy in your KJV ? (or any other Bible/ word study) ? I am KJV only. That is the standard by which I measure all translations. I have a 1611 Edition and an Authorized KJV Bible and that is all I use.
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Post by joseph on Jun 4, 2019 17:05:00 GMT -5
Galatians 4:4 but when the appointed time arrived, God sent forth his Son. He was born from a woman, born into a culture in which legalistic perversion of the Torah was the norm, Romans 8:7 For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God’s Torah — indeed, it cannot. Romans 3:27 So what room is left for boasting? None at all! What kind of Torah excludes it? One that has to do with legalistic observance of rules? No, rather, a Torah that has to do with trusting. Romans 3:20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are. i.e. not only the Pharisees, but no one could keep TORAH. I said that Jesus never said that it wasn't possible to keep the law. You are free to use it, but that is one awful translation. That looks like some kind of terrible paraphrase! I wouldn't go by anything in that version. I don't trust it at all.Here's a note/verse from the KJV: John 7:19a King James Version (KJV) 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? ...
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Post by John on Jun 4, 2019 17:19:22 GMT -5
I said that Jesus never said that it wasn't possible to keep the law. You are free to use it, but that is one awful translation. That looks like some kind of terrible paraphrase! I wouldn't go by anything in that version. I don't trust it at all. Here's a note/verse from the KJV: John 7:19a King James Version (KJV) 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? ... He said don't keep it, not can't keep it.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Jun 9, 2019 7:42:32 GMT -5
I looked up John 7:19 in Greek and in multiple translations. Nowhere is “cannot” even slightly implied. Jesus simply said they do not.
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Jun 9, 2019 15:23:24 GMT -5
how to walk upright:
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
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Post by John on Jun 9, 2019 16:50:04 GMT -5
"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:10 "Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love..." - Ephesians 5:1-2 "For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”" - Romans 13:9 "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." - 1 John 4:8 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." - Matthew 7:12 People hurt one another daily. They do not imitate God. They commit adultery , often for years without ever repenting, They murder and steal daily, often for years, for decades even, without ever repenting. They bear false witness, and covet daily, with no remorse nor shame nor guilt, often for decades without repenting. They also, while sinning daily, without ever repenting, SAY THEY LOVE OTHERS...... and of course, THEY THINK GOD APPROVES of their lifetime of sins! Yes, Finally, they do not truthfully love (they do not even know what love is, that God requires.) Thus, they do not know God. And they daily condemn and put to death the true children of God, the true followers of Jesus, as they did to the prophets of old who God sent; even as they also did /do to Jesus. Yes, that is true, and does happen all the time. That is considered normal behavior for Christians by the "faith plus nothing" movement. These false teachers will turn it around and claim they are on the straight and narrow path, and that those who teach we must stop sinning are on the broad path because they are supposedly trusting in self. The faith plus nothing heretics are fulfilling what the Word says they will, calling good evil and evil good. They are the children of the flesh, and they have and always will persecute the children of promise.
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Post by John on Jun 9, 2019 16:56:35 GMT -5
I looked up John 7:19 in Greek and in multiple translations. Nowhere is “cannot” even slightly implied. Jesus simply said they do not. I agree. This is an example of how people will make minor changes to the plain meaning of the text that will give it a completely different meaning. Why would God give us a law nobody could keep and he doesn't expect us to keep? Why would he play those kind of games with his people? I recognize that there are so many ordinances in the law of Moses, people would break minor things by mistake all the time, but God gave them the Levitical Priesthood, so that when they failed to do everything just right, an animal sacrifice would allow them to remain in right standing with God. This idea that God only gave the law so men and women would see how hopeless it was to even try to follow it and understand we can only be saved by grace is preposterous. It is a man-made doctrine. God gave the law because He is a Holy God and expected His people to live a holy lifestyle.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 9, 2019 17:17:28 GMT -5
God gave the law because He is a Holy God and expected His people to live a holy lifestyle. People in the flesh cannot correctly apply the law of Moses, they will always develop an ungodly behavior.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law:
justice and mercy and faith.
These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone." - Matthew 23:23
Because the only way to apply the law is through love.
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this:
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself." - Galatians 5:14
"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:10
The same thing with the Ten Commandments, people in the flesh cannot walk in them.
"For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice." - Romans 7:19
"If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good." - Romans 7:16
"Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me." - Romans 7:20
"Jesus answered them,
“Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin...
...Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 8:34&36
Obviously, Jesus did not come to die for us so we could keep on sinning.
"He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." - 1 John 3:8
"Abide in Me, and I in you.
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me." - John 15:4
"Whoever abides in Him does not sin.
Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him." - 1 John 3:6
"But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship
the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him." - John 4:23
Yes, now in Christ we are free to worship God - The Father in spirit and truth.
"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." - Romans 8:9
"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts." - Romans 6:12
"For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use
liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another." - Galatians 5:13
Blessings!
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