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Post by John on Jun 9, 2019 17:19:30 GMT -5
God gave the law because He is a Holy God and expected His people to live a holy lifestyle. People in the flesh cannot correctly apply the law of Moses, they will always develop an ungodly behavior.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law:
justice and mercy and faith.
These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone." - Matthew 23:23
Because the only way to apply the law is through love.
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this:
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself." - Galatians 5:14
"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:10
The same thing with the Ten Commandments, people in the flesh cannot walk in them.
"For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice." - Romans 7:19
"If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good." - Romans 7:16
"Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me." - Romans 7:20
"Jesus answered them,
“Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin...
...Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 8:34&36
Obviously, Jesus did not come to die for us so we could keep on sinning.
"He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." - 1 John 3:8
"Abide in Me, and I in you.
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me." - John 15:4
"Whoever abides in Him does not sin.
Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him." - 1 John 3:6
"But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship
the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him." - John 4:23
Yes, now in Christ we are free to worship God - The Father in spirit and truth.
"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." - Romans 8:9
"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts." - Romans 6:12
"For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use
liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another." - Galatians 5:13
Blessings! I am speaking of all those people who lived from the time of Moses till the cross. God clearly didn't give the law to the children of Israel just to show they can't keep it. He really expected obedience.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jun 9, 2019 17:19:35 GMT -5
Paul didn’t say the law was technically impossible; he said it was demoralizing and it never got easier. There is a difference.
If redemption/perfection under the Torah was impossible, that means Moses, Samuel, Isaiah, and Daniel died lost.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 9, 2019 17:26:45 GMT -5
I am speaking of all those people who lived from the time of Moses till the cross. God clearly didn't give the law to the children of Israel just to show they can't keep it... No, I believe they could not keep it. They were in the flesh and the Holy Spirit was not yet given.
The Old covenant is called The Ministry of Condemnation for a reason.
None of them could keep the law: The Ten Commandments.
The problem with the law of Moses is that it was extremely burdensome to keep.
"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little." - Isaiah 28:10
That is when the hypocrisy of the pharisees were born as they followed the law by the letter and breaking many of them in secret.
Then they judged people in a merciless manner while posing to be righteous, holy, etc.
Blessings!
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Post by John on Jun 9, 2019 17:30:45 GMT -5
I am speaking of all those people who lived from the time of Moses till the cross. God clearly didn't give the law to the children of Israel just to show they can't keep it... No, I believe they could not keep it. They were in the flesh and the Holy Spirit was not yet given.
The Old covenant is called The Ministry of Condemnation for a reason.
None of them could keep the law: The Ten Commandments.
The problem with the law of Moses is that it was extremely burdensome to keep.
"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little." - Isaiah 28:10
That is when the hypocrisy of the pharisees were born as they followed the law by the letter and breaking many of them in secret.
Then they judged people in a merciless manner while posing to be righteous, holy, etc.
Blessings! I don't think they could keep it in the sense of never accidentally doing something wrong, but neither do I think God gave them the law to show they can't keep it. Think about that for a minute. Let's say that God gave the law about keeping the Sabbath Holy just to show they can't keep it. If that was so, why have them stone a man to death for doing something God knew they couldn't do? If God told them not to commit adultery, just to show they couldn't help but commit adultery, why put adulterers to death?
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 9, 2019 17:41:54 GMT -5
I don't think they could keep it in the sense of never accidentally doing something wrong, but neither do I think God gave them the law to show they can't keep it. "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law,
that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." - Romans 3:19
God gave the law to people who were in the flesh, then they obviously couldn't keep it.
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God;
for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." - Romans 8:7
But why God gave them the law...?
"What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions..." - Galatians 3:19
"Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." - Romans 3:20
"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." - Galatians 3:24Think about that for a minute. Let's say that God gave the law about keeping the Sabbath Holy just to show they can't keep it.
If that was so, why have them stone a man to death for doing something God knew they couldn't do? God knew what was in the heart of that man because he said:
I do not care about this God, I will profane His Sabbath and do what is important to me.
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24
"There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?" - James 4:12
Blessings!
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Post by joseph on Jun 10, 2019 10:21:14 GMT -5
Paul didn’t say the law was technically impossible; he said it was demoralizing and it never got easier. There is a difference. If redemption/perfection under the Torah was impossible, that means Moses, Samuel, Isaiah, and Daniel died lost. Yahuweh (the Creator) clearly stated throughout TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and NEW TESTAMENT that no man could be saved by keeping and honoring TORAH - even to start with, we are all enemies of God, as sinners dead in trespasses and sin, and perfectly keeping TORAH could not and can not and would not atone for sins nor save anyone eternally. I don't remember anywhere in Scripture, any of the men of God, claiming the TORAH was demoralizing - JUST THE OPPOSITE ! It is LIGHT ! It is meant to lead us TO CHRIST, as written. "Easier" --- JESUS says plainly ---- MY COMMANDMANTS are NOT burdensome..... And Moses, Samuel, Isaiah and Daniel kept Yahuweh's commandments/ TORAH, and were/are called FAITHFUL by Yahuweh(God) Himself, in His Word and Spirit. They were SAVED / CIRCUMCISED of heart/ by the SAME CREATOR AS Ekklesia in the New Testament ! BY FAITH, as written in God's Word. Those who died lost were /are/ condemned likewise for the same reason: UNbelief. Not for not being perfect by TORAH.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 10, 2019 13:15:38 GMT -5
Those who died lost were /are/ condemned likewise for the same reason: UNbelief. Not for not being perfect by TORAH. What I mean is that the carnal mind cannot understand or apply the law correctly.
The pharisees did not apply the law correctly, they followed the commands by the letter in a merciless manner.
A quick example:
It is written:
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9
The carnal mind thinks:
OK, I am free to sin. As long as I confess it I am forgiven.
That is exactly what happens when following the Law by the letter. It generates no repentance or understanding of the truth.
"But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’
For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”" - Matthew 9:13
Blessings!
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Post by John on Jun 10, 2019 13:26:31 GMT -5
Paul didn’t say the law was technically impossible; he said it was demoralizing and it never got easier. There is a difference. If redemption/perfection under the Torah was impossible, that means Moses, Samuel, Isaiah, and Daniel died lost. Yahuweh (the Creator) clearly stated throughout TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and NEW TESTAMENT that no man could be saved by keeping and honoring TORAH - even to start with, we are all enemies of God, as sinners dead in trespasses and sin, and perfectly keeping TORAH could not and can not and would not atone for sins nor save anyone eternally. I don't remember anywhere in Scripture, any of the men of God, claiming the TORAH was demoralizing - JUST THE OPPOSITE ! It is LIGHT ! It is meant to lead us TO CHRIST, as written. "Easier" --- JESUS says plainly ---- MY COMMANDMANTS are NOT burdensome..... And Moses, Samuel, Isaiah and Daniel kept Yahuweh's commandments/ TORAH, and were/are called FAITHFUL by Yahuweh(God) Himself, in His Word and Spirit. They were SAVED / CIRCUMCISED of heart/ by the SAME CREATOR AS Ekklesia in the New Testament ! BY FAITH, as written in God's Word. Those who died lost were /are/ condemned likewise for the same reason: UNbelief. Not for not being perfect by TORAH. Keeping the law without faith in God would save nobody, but I don't think anyone was saying otherwise. They kept the law by faith, as we do good works because of our faith under the New Covenant.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Jun 10, 2019 14:07:48 GMT -5
Words are being put in my mouth here, and I don’t think an explanation on one or two points will stop it, so I should probably disengage.
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Post by joseph on Jun 10, 2019 14:14:24 GMT -5
Words are being put in my mouth here, and I don’t think an explanation on one or two points will stop it, so I should probably disengage. Before you go, would you point out where in Scripture someone , anyone, said that TORAH (The Law) is demoralizing? Or did you mean something else at the time you posted that ?
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Post by John on Jun 10, 2019 15:13:17 GMT -5
Words are being put in my mouth here, and I don’t think an explanation on one or two points will stop it, so I should probably disengage. There is no question that occurred, because I know nobody claimed we could be saved by keeping the law without faith in God. I know you never said that.
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Post by joseph on Jun 10, 2019 15:20:34 GMT -5
Words are being put in my mouth here, and I don’t think an explanation on one or two points will stop it, so I should probably disengage. There is no question that occurred, because I know nobody claimed we could be saved by keeping the law without faith in God. I know you never said that.
Nobody said she said that.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 10, 2019 18:52:10 GMT -5
how to walk upright: Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. That's right Cletus . Sound it out .
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Jun 10, 2019 19:07:56 GMT -5
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Heb 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
so if we flip this coin over... the inscription reads what?
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Post by frienduff on Jun 10, 2019 19:11:34 GMT -5
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Heb 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
so if we flip this coin over... the inscription reads what?
It reads PRAISE THE HOLY LORD , FOR HE IS TRULY the ONLY HOPE WE HAVE . Onward , Cletus , onward into the trenches .
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