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Post by justinadams on Nov 24, 2018 6:21:07 GMT -5
John 1:3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the heavenly host worships You. Aramaic Bible in Plain English By him was everything created which is in Heaven and in The Earth: everything that is seen and everything that is unseen, whether Thrones or Dominions or Principalities or Rulers; everything has been created by his hand and in him.
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Post by John on Nov 24, 2018 9:07:59 GMT -5
As far as I am concerned, any scientific model that pulls you away from spiritual knowledge is not biblical. Science conforms to God’s word, not the other way around. When I examined any possible model, I strongly consider whether it will lead me further down the path of secular physics or further down the path of spiritual principles. We must examine fruit. Something may sound like a good idea at the time but ultimately be a mistake. There are some things we won’t know in this life, but at the same time we should seek to know as much as we can to protect ourselves from bad theories and foolish models. One reason I consider the gap theory to be a possibility is Genesis 1:28, and the fact it says to replenish the earth, as though something had been here before and destroyed. Even if the gap theory were true, it doesn't mean God plans to destroy everything and start over again with an entirely new creation in the future. I used to hold a strong belief in the gap theory, but now it is more like something I haven't ruled out.
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28
To me, this is one of those things where we have some clues the gap theory might have weight to it, but there is no concrete proof.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Nov 24, 2018 9:23:23 GMT -5
The critical comments I posted here were all aimed at gap theory. Even assuming God did cycle through various subhuman forms, they would have been obliterated when He reset the universe in Genesis. There’s no possible way, as far as I can tell, to go from no light in our solar system to cavemen hidden in the soil. Genesis takes us back to no planet, no light, no solar system, which means no artifacts. Either God completely wiped them out and started over, or He didn’t. It’s possible that He’s been cycling through completely new versions of our known universe — that would actually corroborate the string theory model put forth in the videos I posted on page 1.
We thus arrive at a deeper spiritual question. I don’t ask this to be contrary, but to ask a serious question. Is the human condition empty and fallow because God made us that way, or because we fell into sin due to traitorous forces in this universe? We know the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world — but does that mean the foundation of the universe itself? Did God create this whole universe structure with the intention of having something to judge as void? If that was the case, why did He bother putting Adam in the garden? Why was Adam sinless before the fall?
In other words, was that “barren woman gives birth” theme the very premise of the universe itself or simply our relationship with God?
Please let me re-iterate, I’m not asking to be antagonistic, but because I’m trying to understand. I did go back and look at the scriptural references in context. Are we the first run at this human thing, and the reset will be the new heaven/earth promised in Revelation — or are we just one in a series?
The spiritual prison model put forth by some Christians basically goes like this: Satan’s minions fell into a metaphysical abyss which God created as a holding cell. This whole creation experience as we know it is Satan’s trial, and we humans are the jury. God has perpetually invaded Satan’s kingdom in a series of insurrections. First came light, then came order and purpose, then a human race to rule in God’s stead, then the moral law, then Israel, then Jesus’ ultimate victory and the installing of His kingdom. Satan had a counter-attack at every turn. The trial goes back and forth until Armageddon, at which point Satan is convicted and vanquished. That marks the end of one era and the start of another.
So as you can see, we have two different models that are equally compelling. There’s a biblical case to be made for each.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Nov 24, 2018 9:27:00 GMT -5
As far as I am concerned, any scientific model that pulls you away from spiritual knowledge is not biblical. Science conforms to God’s word, not the other way around. When I examined any possible model, I strongly consider whether it will lead me further down the path of secular physics or further down the path of spiritual principles. We must examine fruit. Something may sound like a good idea at the time but ultimately be a mistake. There are some things we won’t know in this life, but at the same time we should seek to know as much as we can to protect ourselves from bad theories and foolish models. One reason I consider the gap theory to be a possibility is Genesis 1:28, and the fact it says to replenish the earth, as though something had been here before and destroyed. Even if the gap theory were true, it doesn't mean God plans to destroy everything and start over again with an entirely new creation in the future. I used to hold a strong belief in the gap theory, but now it is more like something I haven't ruled out.
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28
To me, this is one of those things where we have some clues the gap theory might have weight to it, but there is no concrete proof.
Ahhh so this is based on what God meant by replenish. I never saw that word as a reference to a planetary reset. Interesting.
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Post by frienduff on Nov 24, 2018 11:01:45 GMT -5
One reason I consider the gap theory to be a possibility is Genesis 1:28, and the fact it says to replenish the earth, as though something had been here before and destroyed. Even if the gap theory were true, it doesn't mean God plans to destroy everything and start over again with an entirely new creation in the future. I used to hold a strong belief in the gap theory, but now it is more like something I haven't ruled out.
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28
To me, this is one of those things where we have some clues the gap theory might have weight to it, but there is no concrete proof.
Ahhh so this is based on what God meant by replenish. I never saw that word as a reference to a planetary reset. Interesting. Is the human condition empty and fallow because God made us that way, or because we fell into sin due to traitorous forces in this universe? Its simple . Man and the world fell under the curse when man and woman did what GOD said not to do . God never left man to his own destruction . God let adam have all that was necessary and he left them with one simple instruction . Of the trees of the garden you may eat freely Just not from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil . OH every word of the LORD is life and every disobedience is death and destruction . It is not as though GOD put them in the garden and gave them no knowledge . HE specifically warned , IN the day you eat of it , you will surely die . They ate , and here we are now . Oh their was a traitorous force , the serpent . but mankind chose to obey the wrong one . and adam chose , sadly , his wife over what GOD said . But not a one man or woman can make the claim , if they had been in the garden they would not have disobeyed God , for all have disobeyed GOD. Well, ALL BUT THE LAST ADAM . That one did ALL things pleasing unto the Father and now those who are His walk in His light and have all hope . We must as children understand , When GOD says IN the beginning , it meant beginning . Thus their were no cave men before adam and eve . Adam was the first man , even the first women and as children let us not entertain thoughts which can add or bring confusion . The life I have in Christ is simple . IF its in the bible I believe it and receive it and for me I need to know only that . But knowing that is great peace as Knowing CHRIST brings peace .
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Post by frienduff on Nov 24, 2018 11:05:42 GMT -5
I thought our sister Candace would LIKE that . I did sister .
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Nov 24, 2018 16:32:01 GMT -5
Ahhh so this is based on what God meant by replenish. I never saw that word as a reference to a planetary reset. Interesting. Is the human condition empty and fallow because God made us that way, or because we fell into sin due to traitorous forces in this universe? Its simple . Man and the world fell under the curse when man and woman did what GOD said not to do . God never left man to his own destruction . God let adam have all that was necessary and he left them with one simple instruction . Of the trees of the garden you may eat freely Just not from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil . OH every word of the LORD is life and every disobedience is death and destruction . It is not as though GOD put them in the garden and gave them no knowledge . HE specifically warned , IN the day you eat of it , you will surely die . They ate , and here we are now . Oh their was a traitorous force , the serpent . but mankind chose to obey the wrong one . and adam chose , sadly , his wife over what GOD said . But not a one man or woman can make the claim , if they had been in the garden they would not have disobeyed God , for all have disobeyed GOD. Well, ALL BUT THE LAST ADAM . That one did ALL things pleasing unto the Father and now those who are His walk in His light and have all hope . We must as children understand , When GOD says IN the beginning , it meant beginning . Thus their were no cave men before adam and eve . Adam was the first man , even the first women and as children let us not entertain thoughts which can add or bring confusion . The life I have in Christ is simple . IF its in the bible I believe it and receive it and for me I need to know only that . But knowing that is great peace as Knowing CHRIST brings peace .
we have to also take into consideration before the fall mankind did not have the knowledge of good and evil... that we have now.
if we look up the words in hebrew for the names of the trees, the tree of life means to give firmness to the spine... the hebrew word for tree of knowledge means to close or fasten the eyes.... so then the lie the serpent told was like this... by eating the fruit that closes or fastens your eyes your eyes will be opened and ye shall become as God.
adam and eve didnt get that 2 plus 2 is not 6 on this.
they didnt consider what God said... dont do it. they looked and saw it was good for food, and pleasing to the eye, and good for knowledge... lust of flesh/eyes and pride of life.
Also to keep in line with the topic of science, i once saw a video on how mans bones on the skull in certain places never stop growing... above the eyes is one... and if man lived 900 years those bones would have grown way more. now i am not a scientist, but the guys that said this were.
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Post by Abby-Joy on Nov 24, 2018 17:48:09 GMT -5
As far as I am concerned, any scientific model that pulls you away from spiritual knowledge is not biblical. Science conforms to God’s word, not the other way around. When I examined any possible model, I strongly consider whether it will lead me further down the path of secular physics or further down the path of spiritual principles. We must examine fruit. Something may sound like a good idea at the time but ultimately be a mistake. There are some things we won’t know in this life, but at the same time we should seek to know as much as we can to protect ourselves from bad theories and foolish models. One reason I consider the gap theory to be a possibility is Genesis 1:28, and the fact it says to replenish the earth, as though something had been here before and destroyed. Even if the gap theory were true, it doesn't mean God plans to destroy everything and start over again with an entirely new creation in the future. I used to hold a strong belief in the gap theory, but now it is more like something I haven't ruled out.
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28
To me, this is one of those things where we have some clues the gap theory might have weight to it, but there is no concrete proof.
Also, the word "was" in Genesis 1:2 could have been translated "became" so that it would have read, "And the earth became without form and void." We know that the rebellion of lucifer happened before the fall of man. So it could be that this event brought about the chaotic state of the earth.
Luke 10:18 "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Nov 24, 2018 18:19:19 GMT -5
As far as the word replenish goes i have done a lot of research on this. and basically it goes one of two ways. one side says there was indeed life on earth before... the other side says when we look up the word in hebrew it means to fill. scholars have come together in agreement that the word replenish was just a scholarly word of those days and it was used. but when we consider that some words in strongs have a weak definition it kind of leaves the mind to wonder. one of the words strongs defines weakly is repentance... to change your mind. do I really need to go into explanation for this audience? I do not think so. so we can conclude Strongs does not always have strong definitions.
and it gets even deeper than the questions PG4Him has presented when we consider these scriptures: Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
obviously nothing happened "by chance" and when we consider this timeline i think it shows a series number one. I have a hard time coming to terms with this is Gods plan B. Gods wisdom and greatness far exceeds failure. My theory is that by God doing it this way it eliminated the possibility of man falling away later by sin entering, and also for me God is very thorough in the lessons He teaches me. How He showed me that name it and claim it is false took years before it sunk in, but I will never forget it. He told/invited me even with His hands stretched out to me to go to a church that preaches faith doctrine and prosperity... and now I hate those teachings worse than anything I can think of. God raises us up in a way that defies a finite minds logic. this is why i think he dont tell us everything because it will only confuse us, that is how wise God is, that is how deep His purpose and will for our lives is. Gods victory on Calvary i believe, is deeper and more complete than we can perceive. anyway, God is so good that he has to completely defeat sin and death and the curse and the enemy. He wont just kick out an angel/s and leave it.
As far as the barren woman giving birth, i have understood this as God not having a people and bringing about His nation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2018 6:46:05 GMT -5
Good observation by Butero and worth looking at in my opinion:
Gen 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 9:1
And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
It appears to me that we are seeing an example of a repeating pattern with Noah's flood, and not something new under the sun. Or at least God wants to give us the sense of a repeating pattern.
Those two verses are the only two places where that Hebrew word is translated as replenish that I could find on blueletterbible. However, everywhere else in the bible that Hebrew word is translated as fill, fulfill, or consecrate.
In Merriam Webster Dictionary these are the definitions for the English word replenish....it doesn't seem that it necessarily has to mean to restore or fill something again.
replenish verb
re·plen·ish | \ri-ˈple-nish \
replenished; replenishing; replenishes
Definition of replenish
transitive verb
1a : to fill with persons or animals : STOCK
b archaic : to supply fully : PERFECT
c : to fill with inspiration or power : NOURISH
2a : to fill or build up again
replenished his glass
b : to make good : REPLACE
intransitive verb
: to become full : fill up again
As a side note, looking at those definitions, and when we think of Adam and Eve and how they were to take dominion over the earth.......in addition to physically reproducing, that word replenish/fill could also be implying in a spiritual sense that Adam and Noah were both charged with the task of consecrating the earth to the Lord so to speak, ie, winning spiritual battles and bringing about God's kingdom on earth. (thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2018 7:12:20 GMT -5
This is a bold possibility here, if we look at this passage without any preconceived assumptions and just let it speak to us:
2Pe 3:4-7 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (alluding to the creation account in Genesis) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
I used to assume this passage was alluding specifically to Noah’s flood, but I believe it can very possibly be taken back further as well…..since Noah’s flood didn’t necessitate a new heavens afterward, or a re-creation of the earth. The strength of Peter’s warning here could be that since God made the earth void and desolate before, He will not hesitate to do it again. We could even get the sense from this passage that this knowledge was taken for granted, no big deal....and people who didn't know this was only due to willing ignorance. (Things only seem like a big deal when it comes against whatever the traditions of man are at any particular time.) Peter began by talking about the beginning of creation and to be consistent this even seems like the most reasonable way of looking at the passage.
Anyway, I believe it's worth considering and looking at in light of other scriptures.
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Post by justinadams on Nov 25, 2018 7:14:41 GMT -5
Replenish in old English means to fill.
When the Lord was through with His Creation He looked upon it all as very good. If Lucifer had fallen before this time, it would not have been 'very good'.
The angels were given charge over His Creation's nations. Lucifer did not want to 'serve' mankind so He rebelled. Check out psalm 82 to see that the High Council were not pleasing to the Lord High God.
Job says that the Lord did not trust His Council.
We see the accounts of the fallen ones and the terrible things they did to mankind.
Common sense often gives us a clearer picture of the Creation account.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Nov 25, 2018 9:33:23 GMT -5
Noah’s flood actually did cause fundamental changes to our atmosphere and the planet. Paul says in Romans 8 that creation groans in childbirth to await redemption, which is a far cry from the “He saw it was good” account in Genesis. The first change happened when Adam was cursed and the ground started growing thorns. The soil depletion countdown began then. Mankind’s further rebellion led to more drastic changes in the flood. I don’t want to post a bunch of science links here, but the fact is that the appearance of the polar ice caps changed our axis, and that’s just one of many differences. This planet has changed a lot since Genesis. We truly don’t know what God’s original design was. Please believe I’m not trying to use materalism to dismiss a spiritual idea. At the same time, I want to keep a sober view of all the facts.
I need to further pursue this replenish thing.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Nov 25, 2018 10:02:35 GMT -5
Well, I’ve just had a fun little trip down the rabbit hole of replenish etymology. Does the re- prefix appear at the start of that word as a repetitive prefix or an intensive prefix? There’s evidence of the word being used in that era to mean intensely fill, not fill again. When we see re- at the start of a word we can’t assume it always means repeat.
To intensely fill the earth would indeed convey over-population that commandeered every square mile of livable land. That’s a pretty strong visual of God’s mandate for us to have dominion.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Nov 25, 2018 14:49:39 GMT -5
Alaska is called... the last frontier.
But to Pg4Him and others who wish to go down this rabbit hole lets also take into account other verses that use the same Hebrew word, such as:
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
notice the word fill? its the same Hebrew word for replenish in 1:28.
H4390 מָלָא מָלֵא mâlê' mâlâ' maw-lay', maw-law' A primitive root, to fill or (intransitively) be full of, in a wide application (literally and figuratively): - accomplish, confirm, + consecrate, be at an end, be expired, be fenced, fill, fulfil, (be, become, X draw, give in, go) fully (-ly, -ly set, tale), [over-] flow, fulness, furnish, gather (selves, together), presume, replenish, satisfy, set, space, take a [hand-] full, + have wholly. Total KJV occurrences: 251
Two-Hunnit-fiddy-one is a lot. (a lot a lot)
now I have read many commentaries on this... some say the english word is different because a beast would not understand the command but i have hard time believing God has a problem communicating to any of His creation... I mean even light appears at His Word. other commentaries say its proof the word replenish is only meaning to fill or subdue. and many more do not even make a connection between the verses/english words.
When i studied this out before i found nothing solid i could stand on, nothing i could say, oh there is a pearl.
I cant find anything out about the prefix "re" part, which makes me wonder... All i can find however is that it is an intransitive verb. (in the Hebrew)
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