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Post by John on Dec 5, 2018 9:45:03 GMT -5
Is it possible to believe in the OSAS doctrine and be a Christian? Yes. Do some people that believe in OSAS live a life of sanctification and holiness? Yes. Do some people that reject OSAS live like the devil? Yes. What is the big deal then? It sounds all spiritual to say we obey the Lord out of love and not fear and nice to say that all we fear losing are crowns, and not salvation, but what does this amount to in practical terms when you are only concerned about loss of rewards, like you might lose an Oscar or a prize symbolizing achievements? It means when you are faced with serious threats, you will choose the way of disobedience over a crown to cast at Jesus' feet. It is like when you turn hell into only separation from God, rather than a place of eternal torment. The pleasures of sin for a season might seem reasonable.
Back to OSAS. If I have a business that requires that I sin by destroying others and telling lies, but it might cost me a crown or two, what do I do? With big bucks at stake, I might opt to lose the crowns. Let's suppose that rather than rewards, we are losing our soul. Money now verses eternal punishment is a much different choice. Imagine an OSAS believer facing a choice of losing their head for not taking the mark of the beast or losing a crown they will toss at Jesus' feet anyway. They may choose the mark. Now imagine them facing eternal damnation if they take the mark. Much more serious matter.
One reason I believe this issue is so important, especially in these days, is because we will be facing serious choices that will determine heaven or eternity in hell, and if the fear of hell is taken away, many times the sin choice may seem the most logical. I know the OSAS crowd likes to tell people we should do things out of love and not fear, but Jesus himself gave us many warnings about hell so we would fear. The Bible states that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. OSAS is a lie, and we must stand against it.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Dec 5, 2018 10:12:02 GMT -5
Some people who believe in OSAS do genuinely follow the Lord and love Him.
The problem is that a new comer will see in OSAS an opportunity to sin whenever they want to.
This is presumption and not faith. And whatever is not from faith is sin, as it is written:
"...for whatever is not from faith is sin." - Romans 14:23
In other words, they are not encouraged to seek truth and be made free.
They feel more encouraged to stay how they are (and this is dangerous, very, very dangerous).
"Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God..." - Hebrews 12:14-15
Such thoughts that encourages disobedience to the Lord and say they will not go to hell if they commit an adultery or steal something here and there is not good.
"who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them." - Romans 1:32
"...Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." - 2 Timothy 2:19
New comers are heavily enticed to sin by spiritual adversaries by thinking the above.
And not encourage them to progress in their spiritual walk is very, very harmful and can make them fall away.
"He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad." - Matthew 12:30
And sin is dangerous because it can make someone to depart from the presence of God and never come back (as they were told they are already saved).
"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:23
Those who follow OSAS doctrine and are living in sin and do not care if they sin here and there are in need of spiritual healing.
Because they usually cannot receive exhortations commanding them to seek a holy life and to please God in truth.
"...the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God..." - 1 Corinthians 2:14
And it is a negative sign because no one can walk holy (in truth) except by the Holy Spirit.
"...I am the Lord who sanctifies you." - Leviticus 20:8
Then, if people have the Holy Spirit then such exhortations wouldn't offend them.
But if they are offended by the truth and love of our Lord Jesus Christ then it is a strong sign that they need to know Him, in truth.
"...Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 8:34-36
"...If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." - John 14:23
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Dec 5, 2018 11:09:24 GMT -5
there is a multitude of scripture that says we can fall away, become reprobate, abandon the faith, walk away, become an apostate.
but here is why i detest the false teaching. I went to this church and one day they handed me some papers. the first page was boldly titled CALVANISIM. the next page said TULIP. My spirit drew back, and i had just recently been baptized in The Holy Spirit, hands laid on. I wondered at this... what is this and who is calvin? why is the heading not JESUSISM? they explained it. they even used the scripture saying we are to be one mind in Christ. they were indoctrinating me. I did the polite thing and smiled, nodded. uh huh, i see. thats interesting. and later dismissed it. in the following meetings many of the scriptures were gone over. eventually i believed this OSAS. I was a babe in Christ. I knew God... but at that time had not learned of His ways yet. you see, there is a learning curve here. and when someone believes OSAS they have not learned yet of Gods ways. not truly. not in depth. In time, I did sin, as we all do. a little here, a little there. and God was pursuing me to stop. but that OSAS teaching had become my foundation and i did not put the correct emphasis on Holiness unto The LORD as I should have... because of this false teaching. more time passed. my walk with God suffered. eventually i didnt hear from Him. Even more time passed and my peace was GONE. the whole time i was falling back on OSAS... right? and you see this is one of the ways the devil operates. gets you into a little sin, and nothing because Gods grace and mercy are abundant. but once you have strayed so far from The Good Shepherd, whamo! the enemy has you. your no longer abiding in Christ, and your ability to resist is gone, and then the temptation is relentless. no fruit on the vine. Gods Spirit in us is what gives us the ability to not fulfill the lust of the flesh. If the flesh and Spirit are at war with each other and you remove The Spirit from the equation all you have left is flesh, and there is no good thing in the flesh. none. This is the problem with OSAS. it is better to warn people about what the bible mater in factly does say about falling away, about God casting us off forever, about how sin seperates us from God. And OSAS does not take this part into consideration. its just a message of ladi da rainbows and lolipops. belief on Jesus is good. but sin separates us from God... and OSAS does not support this basic part of the bibles teachings. I have been told by OSAS peple I was still saved the whole time i strayed from God and He was just bringing me back. that He was chastising me. I have a hard time believing that when for several years i lay prostrate weeping and crying out to Him everyday and my breath blowing up dust mixing into mud in my tears on my face... and the Heavens were as brass. nothing. Its Gods choice to allow you back on the path to life again or not. OSAS is right ... to a point. but we do not have the luxury of cherry picking scripture if we want to arrive on the shores of biblical truth... we must take it ALL into account. we must read it all and see how it all fits together.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
notice in the verses above it dont mention sin? thats because sin separates us from God. the wages of sin is death. and OSAS-ers love to quote this scripture. I challenge you, examine any scripture a OSAS-er promotes. some where in there there will be a conditional IF or some scripture that shows you can fall away. If they quote from 1 Corinthians then study it out in that chapter and all around it... even study 2 Corinthians. You will find something telling you to continue in The LORD or abide, endure, press on, continue, stand, ... and there will be warnings too.
the underlying subject here.... we are talking about your eternal soul here.. invest the time to study and pray for God to show you the truth... because He Is the Truth.
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PG4Him
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Essay Moderator
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 5, 2018 11:19:34 GMT -5
The problem I have is that it blatantly ignores a dozen paragraphs in the Bible. The only way to believe it is to essentially pretend that entire passages either don’t exist or don’t say what they say. That is a dangerous habit to have. It usually begins to manifest elsewhere.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Dec 5, 2018 11:38:24 GMT -5
I thought about this as a good example to apply to how we live and what doctrine we practice in life and believe.
And i am going to use you as an example Butero... I hope you dont mind.
I do not believe everything Butero says. like say the timing of the rapture. He will not convince me he is right, and i seriously doubt i will convince Him I am right... but this does not concern salvation. What Butero says concerning salvation there are a couple points i do not agree 100 percent maybe 98 or 99 percent. HOWEVER... if i applied what he does say to my life and lived that way my feet wouldnt be on shifting sand... they would be on The Rock, on solid ground, a firm foundation, and i would have success in my walk with God. THis kind of teaching should be our focus. it should be what we preach to those who are unlearned in knowing God and His ways. we should not preach things that COULD cause one to stumble who does not know any better yet. And if we do... and we know better... what will God do to us?
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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Post by John on Dec 5, 2018 12:16:49 GMT -5
When you were speaking of your experience with falling into sin, and placing your faith in OSAS, that is exactly what Satan wanted. Trust OSAS rather than God and the Bible. There is no reason to stop sinning if you feel nothing you do has any real consequences. After all, we are all filthy sinners and one sin is the same as the next. That is one reason many promoting OSAS can slander and destroy those who get in their way. They literally can do nothing to lose salvation, even renouncing the Lord and speaking against the Spirit. Why would people that believe that way care to stop sinning?
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Post by 2fw8212a on Dec 5, 2018 12:40:59 GMT -5
Why would people that believe that way care to stop sinning?
"And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." - Matthew 3:10
Another question is:
Why do some of them do not believe sin can be overcome?!
"...With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." - Matthew 19:26
"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." - 1 John 4:8
"Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love..." - Ephesians 5:1-2
"...Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." - Galatians 5:16
"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:8
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." - Philippians 4:13
Overcoming sin should be a joyful moment for any Christian.
But what I have seen in some places that instead of rejoicing with people who have overcome they accuse and suspect.
"Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep." - Romans 12:15
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Post by 4hizglory37 on Dec 27, 2018 1:04:00 GMT -5
I believe the parable of the 10 virgins is a perfect example that goes against OSAS. Obviously all ten virgins were believers, but because they had not bought oil for their lamps and were unprepared, they were not allowed into the marriage feast. Jesus said to depart from Him, He never knew them and the door was shut.
The OSAS is a very dangerous doctrine. Many believe that it is a license to sin. And like Cletus said, for the wages of sin is death. Jesus repeatedly said throughout His ministry, Repent, For the Kingdom of God is at hand. Also, Jesus gave us a great example in the Lord's prayer, we are to continually ask for forgiveness of our tresspasses.
I also believe that one might give up their salvation by renouncing the Name of Jesus because they did not trust God to see them through in the great tribulation. I too believe in the post-trib. This will be the testing of the whole world. That would be another way to lose their salvation by giving it up out of fear.
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Post by John on Dec 27, 2018 6:02:38 GMT -5
I believe the parable of the 10 virgins is a perfect example that goes against OSAS. Obviously all ten virgins were believers, but because they had not bought oil for their lamps and were unprepared, they were not allowed into the marriage feast. Jesus said to depart from Him, He never knew them and the door was shut. The OSAS is a very dangerous doctrine. Many believe that it is a license to sin. And like Cletus said, for the wages of sin is death. Jesus repeatedly said throughout His ministry, Repent, For the Kingdom of God is at hand. Also, Jesus gave us a great example in the Lord's prayer, we are to continually ask for forgiveness of our tresspasses. I also believe that one might give up their salvation by renouncing the Name of Jesus because they did not trust God to see them through in the great tribulation. I too believe in the post-trib. This will be the testing of the whole world. That would be another way to lose their salvation by giving it up out of fear. I still believe there will be a pre-tribulation rapture for some, but those taken out will be small in number. We are told by Jesus to watch and pray always that we will be accounted worthy to escape all these things to come. That tells me there must be a way of escape for at least a handful of people.
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Cletus
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Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Dec 27, 2018 7:45:59 GMT -5
one sin can cost you your anointing. one sin cost adam and eve constant fellowship with God and brought all of the created world under curse. one bowl of soup cost Esau his birthright. One lie from Ananias and Sapphira and they dropped dead.
Just like that video i posted the other day... when you are staring at temptation... JUDGE IT! call it what it is. and get rid of it. the enemy knows something good is coming your way or that someone needs to hear a Word... and you got out of step... you just cost yourself or you just stopped someone from receiving that word potentially. its possible and this has eternal weight, this isnt just a here and now thing. its not worth it!
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Post by frienduff on Dec 27, 2018 14:57:54 GMT -5
IF a man continues not in Christ till the end , HE is cast out . no ifs , no ands , no buts , no waits , no nada . THEY cast out .
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Post by John on Dec 27, 2018 16:05:23 GMT -5
IF a man continues not in Christ till the end , HE is cast out . no ifs , no ands , no buts , no waits , no nada . THEY cast out . That is right. Entering is not enough. We must finish the race.
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Post by frienduff on Dec 28, 2018 10:53:50 GMT -5
one sin can cost you your anointing. one sin cost adam and eve constant fellowship with God and brought all of the created world under curse. one bowl of soup cost Esau his birthright. One lie from Ananias and Sapphira and they dropped dead. Just like that video i posted the other day... when you are staring at temptation... JUDGE IT! call it what it is. and get rid of it. the enemy knows something good is coming your way or that someone needs to hear a Word... and you got out of step... you just cost yourself or you just stopped someone from receiving that word potentially. its possible and this has eternal weight, this isnt just a here and now thing. its not worth it! The truth will always be , that we are HIS servants to whom we OBEY . Whether of sin unto death , or of OBEDIANCE unto RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jesus set the model prayer and the pattern for all things . For edification . For correction for all things . We must keep and follow that pattern faithfully . Folks would look at that last line and say , oh you preaching works . NO I am stating REMINDERS by the SPIRIT . For the Holy Ghost that reminds me be faithful to HIm daily , also bids me to remind others , be faithful unto He who has called us . Folks forget , that the letters were inspired by the SPIRIT , by men who had the Spirit . And paul said this , or words to this effect more than once ... And I would that you Affirm these things CONSTANTLY . he told titus to do it , remind CONSTANTLY . Even told timothy the same thing . Peter even said it . paul said it many times . James exhorted constantly . Johns letter , correction exhortation , reminding . And they said , we say this not because you know not the truth , but basically it was safe for them to keep hearing these things . And to be on guard against those who would try and seduce . Honestly , if we would read daily those letters , those letters would sharpen our conscious as a sword . We would get a whole other pattern engrained in us , THAN WHAT we hear today . SO for me to keep warning and exhorting is not tedious to me in the least , it is safe for all. We all NEED those daily reminders . WE ALL DO . Look at what paul even tells timothy . KEEP in sound doctrine , in doing so you shall both SAVE yourself and those that HEAR you . THAT was the SPIRIT at work within paul to shed grace to timothy by REMINDER . IF we have the SPIRIT , I honestly cannot see why we would not be unctioned to continuously exhort on the wholesome words of Christ and the apostles who wrote and spoke by the Same SPIRIT. So a call is being made . Let us only INCREASE our reading of the bible . THE MORE we do it , BY GRACE the sharper we get and sharp we remain . Its when one takes off from reading the bible , that edges start becoming dull . The fact is also , that if men truly taught TRUTH , this too would be a great sharpening . the Problem is , WHERE on earth are those who do so . Most talk of a mixture now . Thus let us all increase BIBLE reading . Just watch how much pure zeal would return . OH let the lambs PRAISE the LORD .
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Dec 28, 2018 17:10:48 GMT -5
one sin can cost you your anointing. one sin cost adam and eve constant fellowship with God and brought all of the created world under curse. one bowl of soup cost Esau his birthright. One lie from Ananias and Sapphira and they dropped dead. Just like that video i posted the other day... when you are staring at temptation... JUDGE IT! call it what it is. and get rid of it. the enemy knows something good is coming your way or that someone needs to hear a Word... and you got out of step... you just cost yourself or you just stopped someone from receiving that word potentially. its possible and this has eternal weight, this isnt just a here and now thing. its not worth it! The truth will always be , that we are HIS servants to whom we OBEY . Whether of sin unto death , or of OBEDIANCE unto RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jesus set the model prayer and the pattern for all things . For edification . For correction for all things . We must keep and follow that pattern faithfully . Folks would look at that last line and say , oh you preaching works . NO I am stating REMINDERS by the SPIRIT . For the Holy Ghost that reminds me be faithful to HIm daily , also bids me to remind others , be faithful unto He who has called us . Folks forget , that the letters were inspired by the SPIRIT , by men who had the Spirit . And paul said this , or words to this effect more than once ... And I would that you Affirm these things CONSTANTLY . he told titus to do it , remind CONSTANTLY . Even told timothy the same thing . Peter even said it . paul said it many times . James exhorted constantly . Johns letter , correction exhortation , reminding . And they said , we say this not because you know not the truth , but basically it was safe for them to keep hearing these things . And to be on guard against those who would try and seduce . Honestly , if we would read daily those letters , those letters would sharpen our conscious as a sword . We would get a whole other pattern engrained in us , THAN WHAT we hear today . SO for me to keep warning and exhorting is not tedious to me in the least , it is safe for all. We all NEED those daily reminders . WE ALL DO . Look at what paul even tells timothy . KEEP in sound doctrine , in doing so you shall both SAVE yourself and those that HEAR you . THAT was the SPIRIT at work within paul to shed grace to timothy by REMINDER . IF we have the SPIRIT , I honestly cannot see why we would not be unctioned to continuously exhort on the wholesome words of Christ and the apostles who wrote and spoke by the Same SPIRIT. So a call is being made . Let us only INCREASE our reading of the bible . THE MORE we do it , BY GRACE the sharper we get and sharp we remain . Its when one takes off from reading the bible , that edges start becoming dull . The fact is also , that if men truly taught TRUTH , this too would be a great sharpening . the Problem is , WHERE on earth are those who do so . Most talk of a mixture now . Thus let us all increase BIBLE reading . Just watch how much pure zeal would return . OH let the lambs PRAISE the LORD .
they could say i am preaching works... but i am simply stating the truth and giving a big part of how to Walk. If someone were to claim that it would show they are not very knowledgeable about how a relationship with God works. you dont go around sinning and expect God to bless you or use you. we will sin, no doubt about that and God isnt going to be waiting to pounce like a lion laying in wait when we do... but when we become comfortable with our sin, and practice sin thats when our light grows dim. someone that does not understand this elementary fact of having a relationship with God does not know Gods ways very well. they may know Him, and they may even rest in Him... but they do not know. something occured to me the other day. when i believed in osas you would not have told me any different and had me believe you, so I have been where the osas crowd is. They have simply not walked where I have, and they have believed a false teaching. the argument against the false teaching is to just claim its works based. this teaching has progressed to the point repentance is no longer considered, by some, to be apart of the gospel. even when you show them your claim of 1 Cor 15 is false because of Acts 20 showing clearly Paul did preach repentance... they wont even give rebuttal. Now if they could disprove scripture as false interpretation they would respond because truth would be on their side, and the bible speaks for itself and scripture interprets scripture. instead they defer to respond... they remain silent, because to speak would be to argue with not me... But The King. it would be to their own detriment to say to God what the covenant says He made, to tell God they know better than Him, to try and dispute Gods own words. instead they wish to not talk about it. And God does not resist them whether they be pretenders or legit Holy Ghost filled saints. God does not debate His word. He will however while correcting you tell you... "And thats NOT what that means!" as he has said to me... and then in my heart He showed me what that scripture meant and then I felt it rise to my brain... and without being able to speak freely of my own will He brought forth the words from my heart... I understand... and then went to the next scripture. and the whole time, lol, my eyes were the size of golf balls and i was rocking back in forth in awe of how great He Is.
God aint playing games. the message in the OT and the NT is the same... STOP SINNING! Be ye HOLY as HE is HOLY. Holiness unto The LORD. Go and sin no more. even the whole book of romans says this message... either you are killing sin... or sin is killing you. How can you mix salt water and fresh water and it be good to drink? either the vessel holds good drinking water or bitter.
The thing we must consider is that God is faithful and His word does not return to Him void. we just tell them. if they fall in sin and walk away from God ... and they turn back to Him... then God will restore them. We cant stop this false teaching. it has been birthed and has spread like wildfire. its in so many churches now because it tickles the ear and makes people have a false security. they want to be told God is going to bless you no matter what. people will say what we preach is false... but when the rubber hits the road and someones heart is desperately searching because they have believed a lie and peace and blessing are absent from their life, they will discover what we preach is indeed the truth. you cant earn it... but you must live it. otherwise you are not a vessel fit to be used.
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Post by frienduff on Dec 29, 2018 10:27:13 GMT -5
To the Lord be all glory . Raise those hands and let all praise the Lord .
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