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Post by John on Feb 27, 2019 6:27:49 GMT -5
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
This is a passage we should take a close look at. Judgment must first begin with us, who are in the house of God, not those in the world. We need to all take a close look at ourselves in the mirror of God's Word, not in comparison to others. We need to count the cost and choose who we will serve, God or the devil. The half in and half out approach will not do. We are told in Revelation that the lukewarm will be spewed out of God's mouth.
It goes on to ask the question that if judgment first begins with us, what will the end be of those "that obey not the gospel of God?" It is assumed that those in the church are trying to be obedient children, but what will be the end of those who are not? From the way this is worded, it is obvious their end will not be a good one.
This next verse I find to be very interesting. It tells us that the righteous are scarcely saved. How are you "scarcely saved?" It comes across like those who are fully serving God are barely pulled out of the fire and allowed entrance into heaven. That is because next to God's standard of holiness, our righteousness is as filthy rags. If not for the blood of Jesus washing our sins away, we would be spending eternity in hell. Then it asks a similar question as before. If we, the blood washed, sold out Christians are scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinners appear? It is obvious that they will not make it into heaven and they won't partake in the joys of the Lord. Since there is no purgatory, that only leaves one option, hell, which will later be cast into the lake of fire.
The final verse in that passage is also sobering. It is God's will that we sometimes suffer for our faith. We are sometimes tried in the fire for a reason. If we are suffering according to the will of God, we must commit the keeping of our souls to God, and how do we do that? "In well doing." Our creator is faithful. He won't let us go through more than we can handle.
This was the OP to this thread, and I was focusing on 3 verses. I wasn't ignoring anything from 1 Peter. I was addressing this particular section of text. I was discussing what I believe it is saying.
As far as Jimmy Swaggart, David Wilkerson or anyone else goes, I hardly pay any attention to televangelists anymore. Just because they are well known and have a large following doesn't make their interpretations right. Even when I used to be a supporter of Jimmy Swaggart, I didn't agree with everything he said. I have a book of things David Wilkerson prophesied in the 70s, and there are things that failed to come to pass, so even though I respect the good he has done, I do not take him as the authority on everything. A long time ago, I made up my mind to know the Bible without using commentaries or putting my trust in men. We have the Holy Spirit to be our instructor, so pointing to Jimmy Swaggart and David Wilkerson doesn't impress me any. I did give my view of what these verses are saying in the OP, which I brought up again. If you disagree with what I wrote, all or part of it, and want to address specific issues of where you think I got it wrong, I will be happy to look at it again. The only thing I can see here that is up for debate is who are the ones not obeying the gospel of God, those in the church or outside, but I believe this is speaking of anyone who doesn't obey it.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 27, 2019 9:19:08 GMT -5
I’m sitting over here confused myself because I’ve never heard Giller’s interpretation. I actually don’t read much teaching from modern preachers. I didn’t even know who David Wilkerson was until about five years ago. Jimmy Swaggart I remember from TV, but I don’t think I could tell you one specific thing I heard him teach.
Born-again Christians must appear for judgment:
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. — Romans 14:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. — 2 Corinthians 5:10-11
Jesus told us to endure suffering if we wish to get a crown:
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. — Revelation 2:10-11
Not those who say a prayer of salvation, but those who overcome whatever measure of suffering is assigned to them — these are the ones who escape the second death.
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. — James 1:12
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. — 1 Corinthians 4:2-5
Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. — Matthew 25:16-19
Suffering, persecution, and faithful service in our duty are all connected to a day of reckoning for the saints.
Now let’s return to 1 Peter 4:
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. — 5-7
As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. — 10
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. — 12-13
The saints are tested, tried, and given stewardship to account for, all of which is reckoned when we appear at the judgment throne. Each person is reckoned in accordance with the measure of faith and assignment they were given. Then we receive the crown of life as our reward.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 27, 2019 9:56:33 GMT -5
I do not know why the judgment of God part is being ignored in 1 Peter, which we get chastised of the Lord for our sins, not for being persecuted for doing well. Yes our faith gets tried and tested in persecution, but that is not the judgment of God. Why not discuss this part as well, instead of just saying I am right and you are wrong. Okay this seems to be the source of confusion. Judgment isn’t always for chastisement of sins.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 27, 2019 10:13:24 GMT -5
I didn’t think to explain the judgment of the saints because I thought it was common knowledge.
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Post by John on Feb 27, 2019 10:20:45 GMT -5
I didn’t think to explain the judgment of the saints because I thought it was common knowledge. You can't assume stuff like that. I once did a message at the Christmas season about Jesus' sacrifice of leaving heaven, and I thought everyone knew he existed eternally, till someone came up to me later and said they never knew that.
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Post by Giller on Feb 27, 2019 11:28:30 GMT -5
I do not know why the judgment of God part is being ignored in 1 Peter, which we get chastised of the Lord for our sins, not for being persecuted for doing well. Yes our faith gets tried and tested in persecution, but that is not the judgment of God. Why not discuss this part as well, instead of just saying I am right and you are wrong. Okay this seems to be the source of confusion. Judgment isn’t always for chastisement of sins. Now I do agree that there is the judgment seat of Christ, which we believers are to appear before him, but concerning persecution for righteousness sake', it is not mentioned as a judgment of God. Now the tribulation period is known as the judgment or wrath of God, but it is the wrath of God upon the world, but within this time period, Satan through the Antichrist will unleash his wrath upon the saints, but this is not God's judgment upon the church, but rather Satan's wrath. And the 1 Peter scripture is the judgment of God happening down here in the church of God, not in Heaven. And I totally agree with what you said in general about persecution, and obtaining a crown. And I too Butero disagree with things with Jimmy and David Wilkerson, but do agree on a lot of things they say though. In the Corinthians scripture, it does say this: 1Co 3:16-18 (16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (18) Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. And this tells me that he wants our temples to be holy, fit for the master's use, and I believe that building on the foundation, which is Christ Jesus does require us to build ourselves up in this, so we can walk in Christ's ministry and be a witness to others, and as you said in another post, to make disciples, to lead souls to Christ. 1Co 3:9 (9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. We are to labour for souls, as it shows in our next scripture: 1Co 3:7-8 (7) So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. (8) Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Feb 27, 2019 11:31:32 GMT -5
its not talking about sinful behavior... when we read the whole passage the whole premise of the apostle is ... on the foundation of Christ. therefore this passage is to someone in Christ.
if the conversation veers into the lane of pastors preaching false teachings and leading others astray... we have changed subjects.
Of course it is talking about Christians, never said it was not. And it is good to go to a few verses before as well, here is the scripture: 1Co 3:9-15 (9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. (10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. (11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. There is no doubt that there is an aspect of sanctification here, for it is talking about building on the word. And of course as you build upon the word, it will build fruit in your life. But it also says to take heed how you build thereupon. Whether you are a minister or just an individual believer, you have to be careful how you build, which can determine how much fruit or lack of fruit will be in your life, and with fruit, it will result in works. And of course man's work being burned but yet suffering loss, refers to loss of rewards, not loss of salvation, but the next part speaks of yet he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire, which shows that it will not touch his salvation. And I still feel many are twisting what I am saying and are not understanding, or maybe in some cases do not want to, i do not know, but anyhow I want to believe the whole council of the word, nothing added or taken away. And remember that it says saved as by fire, at the end. And I can see that people are saying that I am saying that this whole chapter is on sin, that is baloney. And one thing we have to remember is that sanctification flows from salvation. I do not know why the judgment of God part is being ignored in 1 Peter, which we get chastised of the Lord for our sins, not for being persecuted for doing well. Yes our faith gets tried and tested in persecution, but that is not the judgment of God. Why not discuss this part as well, instead of just saying I am right and you are wrong. to me how i see it is those works depend on the teachings. i think prosperity would be a good example. i am believing God will bless me because i am sowing seeds. I hear people say this all the time... even in baptist churches. if you believe in a teaching and your faith pushes you to action/works of that teaching, but that teaching is not really Truth... you wont get the reward you thought. name it and claim it is one of the first things God showed me about this on. and really what i see it boils down to is what is our faith in/on... in Jesus... or in the teaching or stuff. some say i am of paul, others say i am of apollos and even more say i am of calvin or that Armenian thing.
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Post by Giller on Feb 27, 2019 11:33:18 GMT -5
But it requires a sanctified life in order to be a true witness to the lost.
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Post by Giller on Feb 27, 2019 11:35:14 GMT -5
Of course it is talking about Christians, never said it was not. And it is good to go to a few verses before as well, here is the scripture: 1Co 3:9-15 (9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. (10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. (11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. There is no doubt that there is an aspect of sanctification here, for it is talking about building on the word. And of course as you build upon the word, it will build fruit in your life. But it also says to take heed how you build thereupon. Whether you are a minister or just an individual believer, you have to be careful how you build, which can determine how much fruit or lack of fruit will be in your life, and with fruit, it will result in works. And of course man's work being burned but yet suffering loss, refers to loss of rewards, not loss of salvation, but the next part speaks of yet he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire, which shows that it will not touch his salvation. And I still feel many are twisting what I am saying and are not understanding, or maybe in some cases do not want to, i do not know, but anyhow I want to believe the whole council of the word, nothing added or taken away. And remember that it says saved as by fire, at the end. And I can see that people are saying that I am saying that this whole chapter is on sin, that is baloney. And one thing we have to remember is that sanctification flows from salvation. I do not know why the judgment of God part is being ignored in 1 Peter, which we get chastised of the Lord for our sins, not for being persecuted for doing well. Yes our faith gets tried and tested in persecution, but that is not the judgment of God. Why not discuss this part as well, instead of just saying I am right and you are wrong. to me how i see it is those works depend on the teachings. i think prosperity would be a good example. i am believing God will bless me because i am sowing seeds. I hear people say this all the time... even in baptist churches. if you believe in a teaching and your faith pushes you to action/works of that teaching, but that teaching is not really Truth... you wont get the reward you thought. name it and claim it is one of the first things God showed me about this on. and really what i see it boils down to is what is our faith in/on... in Jesus... or in the teaching or stuff. some say i am of paul, others say i am of apollos and even more say i am of calvin or that Armenian thing. And what you say here is right on Cletus.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 27, 2019 11:42:54 GMT -5
I don’t know how much simpler I can make this.
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer — 2 Thessalonians 1:4-5
We are made worthy of the kingdom through our suffering, and this is the righteous judgment of God.
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. — Matthew 24:9-13
Scripture makes it expressly clear that enduring persecution qualifies us to be counted worthy and thus to be saved.
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Post by John on Feb 27, 2019 11:58:10 GMT -5
I don’t know how much simpler I can make this. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer — 2 Thessalonians 1:4-5We are made worthy of the kingdom through our suffering, and this is the righteous judgment of God. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. — Matthew 24:9-13Scripture makes it expressly clear that enduring persecution qualifies us to be counted worthy and thus to be saved. That is what those scriptures say, but admittedly, I have never looked at them like that. I have never heard that taught before, but then again, anything to do with a need to overcome or endure is generally ignored, and said to be a works based message, as though works mean nothing.
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Post by Giller on Feb 27, 2019 12:18:59 GMT -5
I must admit what you just wrote is thought provoking, and i find there was good stuff said.
Here are other scriptures to consider:
Rom 1:32 (32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
That is they know God's judgments or ways.
But then we get to our next scritpure:
Rom 2:2-5 (2) But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. (3) And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? (4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? (5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Now here is a specific judgment of God, it is called the righteous judgment of God, but it is against people with a hard and impenitent heart.
So now we go to our next scripture:
2Th 1:4-6 (4) So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: (5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: (6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
Is God saying that our persecutions themselves are a righteous judgment of God? Or that it is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God? which will result in verse 6, which says "seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you."
The word token means this:
(Strong's concordance)
(G1730
ἔνδειγμα endeigma en'-dighe-mah
From G1731; an indication (concretely): - manifest token. Total KJV occurrences: 1)
Is persecution just simply an indicator that God will pour out his righteous judgment upon them that trouble them?
Because remember that Romans scripture shows an example of what his righteous judgment is.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 27, 2019 12:24:42 GMT -5
Christians are afraid of being called self-righteous if they even sniff at the topic of being judged for their work in the kingdom. False teachers and unprofitable servants are judged to a harsher degree than we like to imagine. It’s better to be a lost sinner who leaves the church alone than to ransack the church with bad doctrine that kills sheep.
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Post by Giller on Feb 27, 2019 12:40:05 GMT -5
And of course God says to judge ourselves, God does chastise us, we will go before Christ, to be judged for our works' sake, at his judgment seat, and not for our sins.
We will be judged according to what we did with this salvation of ours.
But on earth we do get chastised for our sins.
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Post by Sister on Feb 27, 2019 12:42:15 GMT -5
Hi Giller, I havn't read the whole thread but started just a page back or so.
You mentioned some good things here! I so agree with the importance of what you are trying to convey, but I will just talk about this part for now.
From what I have learned, many of us still have spots on our garments. Something is lacking in our walk. When we are washed clean it mean's we have put on righteousness as a garment by already going through the fire and overcoming these obstacles. If we do this, we are following Christ's instructions. We know the devil will try all that he can to tempt us into either not knowing, or to disobey God's will....therefore he will send many temptations to distract and take us off that path.....but because Christ knows how powerful and cunning the enemy is, there is still mercy there. So before we can enter into the resurrection of the saints, we have to be made aware or our sins, because somehow, some of us are still partly blinded. Whatever we sow, we will reap. This law applies to all, ...Christians included.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
This is the fire that was mentioned, ....chastisement, persecution.....not because we were good students but the opposite. Now a big test and a second chance to put those dirty robes through the wash for purifying. If we endure this chastisement, we will be saved. It is the Lord that purifies us through what he allows us to be put through as a form of correction and to make some of us who are proud, humble and to put some of us that were wrong, right.
Now I know there were many others who went through persecution, not because they were bad and being punished, but were holy. If we suffer for righteousness sake and not as an evil doer during our walk, then that is different. These different types of fire that we go through are to exercise our faith and self control. They are lessons in making us stronger and wiser....but there comes a time when the student is given ample grace and time to grow, ...and when the door is shut at a certain point, just before the great tribulation begins ..if we are not standing where we ought to be, then a great heavy trial awaits us. This is what I have been trying to convey for many years. Judgement starts at the house of God. There will be a dividing line between Christians. Those wearing white robes on this side, and those with spots on that side. The two different sides will go through two different scenario's and I am not speaking of an early rapture for one side, but a saving grace moment for that side by not being put through a fiery tribulation, but delivered from it.
There's one thing I noticed here in the verse you quoted;
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
The foundation of Christ is not just knowing his name, but what he stands for ....the way, the light,....the truth.
Now what do you see written in the very next verse, ...v12?
What do all those things have in common?
Now the following verses
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Fire burns the flesh, but this fire is from God, therefore it is different and is a spiritual fire. The spirit tests the spirit, and the spirit reveals the spirit inside of man. The spirit of God does everything.
To build our foundation on Christ is to build it upon ....the spirit. The spirit of God. The spirit of truth. This is what Christ instructed, ...to get away from the flesh and all it desires and get into that heavenly spiritual realm where there is truth to no end. Go to that higher plane.
The opposite to this higher plane is the world, that lower plane. The material land in which we were called to come out of. Many are building their foundation on this. All those other foundations mentioned in verse 12 are clearly material. This is what I was speaking previously about to Butero, ....this is that Babylon, the land of the material that many Christians cannot depart from - and if we don't understand what it is, then how can we depart from something so detrimental to our souls.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss. This means all that he thought he did for the Lord with good intentions means nothing. There was no gain. It's a loss for the Lord, ....no interest gained, no interest paid....bad investment. But only by fire (chastisement) can he be saved. Have to prove ourselves now. Make corrections because we didn't "overcome". That soul doesn't lose his reward in the end, just his works which were built on the wrong foundation....the world's foundation, and material things represent the world. We need to not depend on the world, or be joined to her, but Christ only who is the Word of God.
Many Christians don't realise that they are still in the world, but the scriptures warn, warn, warn. We need to check what we are doing for entertainment and where we are getting our information from. These thorns can sometimes seem like beautiful flowers but are there to deceive.
So I liked all that you said, and I'm not disputing you in any way but just wanted to share my thoughts for anyone that wants to have a good ponder on this.
God bless.
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