PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 27, 2019 13:10:08 GMT -5
(2) But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. (3) And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? (4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? (5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; The revelation of the righteous judgment of God is at Jesus’ appearing. When the day comes that Jesus revisits earth to judge everyone for their works, all will be known, and justice will be served. This is what the “day of wrath” will be for the wicked. God’s wrath for false teachers is “stored up” to be measured out at this time. Judgment begins first — and at a higher standard — for those in the kingdom. Those who squandered their little will have it taken away. Those who increased their profit will be given more. Some will be made rulers of cities. Personally I don’t believe profitable servants are increasing only in souls saved. That would imply that evangelists are treated better than the rest of us. As I see it, a teacher must be profitable in growing fruits of teaching that expound on Scripture like never before to put to shame those who question us. A prophet must be profitable in showing us the signs and seasons so the church may meet every challenge. Those who have the gift of faith must grow fruit of more and more faith so they can minister to the lost and the hurting. Our modern church is great at evangelism and basically useless at everything else. The body doesn’t serve itself. No great measures of faith, no heights of agape love, no equipping saints to give an answer to the world. Just counting the tally of people who prayed for salvation, and then lots of razzle-dazzle to see how many sick people are healed. We talk about how we don’t want to rely on works, but then we make Christian success to be all about numbers and performance. How much better could we do if our evangelists were well taught, well covered in prayer, well treated with hospitality, and well guided through prophecy? That’s what the body is supposed to be doing. We endure persecution as a manifest token of God’s righteous judgment because our kingdom is supposed to be silencing, shaming, and exposing our opponents. We’re supposed to silence every accusation against us, answer every question against us, and appear blameless before a wicked world. When we endure and overcome persecution, we are exposing the lies against us in much the same way that Job silenced Satan. We are thus destroying our accusers and exposing Satan as a powerless liar. That’s what our kingdom is in the business of doing, so we’re either worthy because we take the hits, or we’re unworthy. Enduring persecution is implicit to the Christian life. The gates of hell are railing against us. Satan would have the unbelieving world know that our faith is flimsy, conditional, and built on lazy thinking. Fiery trials prove otherwise. Our faith is tested as gold and proven to be pure. Then our accuser has no answer. This faith, the pure kind with no fleshly contaminants, opens the door for teaching, prophecy, service, and miracles to advance our kingdom. Anyway. I could pilfer through dozens of Bible verses to show all this, but either it makes sense or it doesn’t. I will have to leave it at that. You’re free to believe me or not. I really don’t want to go in circles over Greek vocabulary all day. That’s about all I can say on this topic for now. Be blessed everyone.
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Post by John on Feb 27, 2019 13:28:53 GMT -5
(2) But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. (3) And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? (4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? (5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; The revelation of the righteous judgment of God is at Jesus’ appearing. When the day comes that Jesus revisits earth to judge everyone for their works, all will be known, and justice will be served. This is what the “day of wrath” will be for the wicked. God’s wrath for false teachers is “stored up” to be measured out at this time. Judgment begins first — and at a higher standard — for those in the kingdom. Those who squandered their little will have it taken away. Those who increased their profit will be given more. Some will be made rulers of cities. Personally I don’t believe profitable servants are increasing only in souls saved. That would imply that evangelists are treated better than the rest of us. As I see it, a teacher must be profitable in growing fruits of teaching that expound on Scripture like never before to put to shame those who question us. A prophet must be profitable in showing us the signs and seasons so the church may meet every challenge. Those who have the gift of faith must grow fruit of more and more faith so they can minister to the lost and the hurting. Our modern church is great at evangelism and basically useless at everything else. The body doesn’t serve itself. No great measures of faith, no heights of agape love, no equipping saints to give an answer to the world. Just counting the tally of people who prayed for salvation, and then lots of razzle-dazzle to see how many sick people are healed. We talk about how we don’t want to rely on works, but then we make Christian success to be all about numbers and performance. How much better could we do if our evangelists were well taught, well covered in prayer, well treated with hospitality, and well guided through prophecy? That’s what the body is supposed to be doing. We endure persecution as a manifest token of God’s righteous judgment because our kingdom is supposed to be silencing, shaming, and exposing our opponents. We’re supposed to silence every accusation against us, answer every question against us, and appear blameless before a wicked world. When we endure and overcome persecution, we are exposing the lies against us in much the same way that Job silenced Satan. We are thus destroying our accusers and exposing Satan as a powerless liar. That’s what our kingdom is in the business of doing, so we’re either worthy because we take the hits, or we’re unworthy. Enduring persecution is implicit to the Christian life. The gates of hell are railing against us. Satan would have the unbelieving world know that our faith is flimsy, conditional, and built on lazy thinking. Fiery trials prove otherwise. Our faith is tested as gold and proven to be pure. Then our accuser has no answer. This faith, the pure kind with no fleshly contaminants, opens the door for teaching, prophecy, service, and miracles to advance our kingdom. Anyway. I could pilfer through dozens of Bible verses to show all this, but either it makes sense or it doesn’t. I will have to leave it at that. You’re free to believe me or not. I really don’t want to go in circles over Greek vocabulary all day. That’s about all I can say on this topic for now. Be blessed everyone. For what it is worth, it makes sense to me.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 27, 2019 13:28:58 GMT -5
The opposite to this higher plane is the world, that lower plane. The material land in which we were called to come out of. Many are building their foundation on this. All those other foundations mentioned in verse 12 are clearly material. This is what I was speaking previously about to Butero, ....this is that Babylon, the land of the material that many Christians cannot depart from - and if we don't understand what it is, then how can we depart from something so detrimental to our souls. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss. This means all that he thought he did for the Lord with good intentions means nothing. There was no gain. It's a loss for the Lord, ....no interest gained, no interest paid....bad investment. But only by fire (chastisement) can he be saved. Have to prove ourselves now. Make corrections because we didn't "overcome". That soul doesn't lose his reward in the end, just his works which were built on the wrong foundation....the world's foundation, and material things represent the world. We need to not depend on the world, or be joined to her, but Christ only who is the Word of God. Many Christians don't realise that they are still in the world, but the scriptures warn, warn, warn. We need to check what we are doing for entertainment and where we are getting our information from. These thorns can sometimes seem like beautiful flowers but are there to deceive. Y’all this is some truth right here, and I mean some TRUTH we ought to take great heed to. The huge of majority of what most modern Christians do is based on wordly/humanistic thinking. Even what’s being done “for the kingdom” is usually in the flesh. This isn’t something I’ve mastered myself by any means, but God has been working in me heavily on this topic. Wordliness abounds in so many levels people can’t see. I’m not even talking about the way people dress or anything like. I’m talking about foundational humanistic thinking. Not throwing stones at others. Not trying to get on a high horse. I’m just feeling like a person who noticed there’s a contagious epidemic making the whole town sick. I’m no better than anyone else, no more immune to the sickness. But I’m starting to see it.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Feb 27, 2019 14:08:14 GMT -5
we are judged by our words and everything we do. we either speak life or death, and the power of life and death is in the tongue. we either do works that show our faith or not. works are evidence of our faith, and faith without works is dead. if our words and our actions do not line up we have a deficiency of faith... or we are just lazy at putting our faith into action.
I do not think we can earn salvation, but i do believe there is more to the gospel than believe and receive and just blessed beyond stress. or words and or works are evidence of what we believe, and as a believer we are judged on this. our works do not pay for our sins or offer atonement for sins, and when we endure or suffer it shows our faith. we believe God and we remain faithful. we abide. there is also the aspect of the servant not being greater than the master. if persecution comes and we say oh it done got to deep for me and i left my waders at the house... is that not putting our hand to the plow and looking back?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 27, 2019 14:15:59 GMT -5
Unfortunately the OSAS crowd has paralyzed most of the church. Between them and the prosperity crowd, hundreds of Christian teaching books are being pumped out every year that completely drown out calls for holiness.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Feb 27, 2019 14:39:26 GMT -5
HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD!!!
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Post by 4hizglory37 on Feb 27, 2019 23:33:25 GMT -5
The way I take the words scarcely saved, or saved , but as by fire, is in the sense that they just made it in. And it does not say the words scarcely, and as by fire for nothing. I do not think people realize how intertwined things really are. They do not suffer loss of reward for no reason, and often times one thing leads to another thing. As I said sanctification flows from salvation. And this next statement, I am saying as a side note. See every one grows at a different pace in the Lord, God sees the heart, and knows were a person is at, God does not judge as man judges. Someone can be a Christian for 1 year, and another for 20 years and get the same reward. And there is always a reason why someone may not be bearing much fruit. You can only harden your heart so long against the process of sanctification, to were it can affect your salvation, and can lead you to turn away from God. Things are a lot more intertwined than what we think, things tend to work together with each other, and one thing affects the other. "Someone can be a Christian for 1 year and another for 20 years and get the same reward" is just like the story in the Scriptures, the parable where a man hires laborers in the morning for a denarius, hires some at heat of the day, and still others just before end of the day. But, they all received the same reward. I think in this case, when we repent, and get saved, we receive the same crown of life. There are other rewards of course because Scripture tells us there are different rewards. But like someone else said in this thread, when we go through the fire, we will know what sort of faith we had.....
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Post by John on Feb 28, 2019 8:04:44 GMT -5
The way I take the words scarcely saved, or saved , but as by fire, is in the sense that they just made it in. And it does not say the words scarcely, and as by fire for nothing. I do not think people realize how intertwined things really are. They do not suffer loss of reward for no reason, and often times one thing leads to another thing. As I said sanctification flows from salvation. And this next statement, I am saying as a side note. See every one grows at a different pace in the Lord, God sees the heart, and knows were a person is at, God does not judge as man judges. Someone can be a Christian for 1 year, and another for 20 years and get the same reward. And there is always a reason why someone may not be bearing much fruit. You can only harden your heart so long against the process of sanctification, to were it can affect your salvation, and can lead you to turn away from God. Things are a lot more intertwined than what we think, things tend to work together with each other, and one thing affects the other. "Someone can be a Christian for 1 year and another for 20 years and get the same reward" is just like the story in the Scriptures, the parable where a man hires laborers in the morning for a denarius, hires some at heat of the day, and still others just before end of the day. But, they all received the same reward. I think in this case, when we repent, and get saved, we receive the same crown of life. There are other rewards of course because Scripture tells us there are different rewards. But like someone else said in this thread, when we go through the fire, we will know what sort of faith we had..... The crown of life is like reserved for a person when they repent and get saved, but it is given to them at the judgement if they endure till the end.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 28, 2019 8:27:17 GMT -5
Conversion makes us eligible to win a crown if we don’t fall away.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Feb 28, 2019 10:11:02 GMT -5
Conversion makes us eligible to win a crown if we don’t fall away. Conversion is not enough.
"...Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:3
It is what the OSAS doctrine is doing (and encouraging), making converts... that walk not as little children (pure).
As it is written, not all who say Lord, Lord shall enter.
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Post by Giller on Feb 28, 2019 11:14:16 GMT -5
Well I am glad that things have gotten back on track.
Now for myself, i do not see any scripture that associates being persecuted for righteousness sake with the righteous judgment of God, but at the same time I do believe that a Christian's faith does get tried and tested in persecution.
Satan's purpose in persecution is to destroy Christians by either getting them to renounce Christ, and if he can't get them to do that, well to have them killed, but God's purpose is to try our faith, and yes there seems to be some verses (not all verses) that does associate persecution to a fire.
And our faith gets purified through the means of persecution in some aspect.
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Post by Giller on Feb 28, 2019 11:17:05 GMT -5
And yes there is a certain verse that was mentioned that does point to the second coming of Christ.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 28, 2019 11:24:11 GMT -5
its not talking about sinful behavior... when we read the whole passage the whole premise of the apostle is ... on the foundation of Christ. therefore this passage is to someone in Christ.
if the conversation veers into the lane of pastors preaching false teachings and leading others astray... we have changed subjects.
Of course it is talking about Christians, never said it was not. And it is good to go to a few verses before as well, here is the scripture: 1Co 3:9-15 (9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. (10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. (11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. There is no doubt that there is an aspect of sanctification here, for it is talking about building on the word. And of course as you build upon the word, it will build fruit in your life. But it also says to take heed how you build thereupon. Whether you are a minister or just an individual believer, you have to be careful how you build, which can determine how much fruit or lack of fruit will be in your life, and with fruit, it will result in works. And of course man's work being burned but yet suffering loss, refers to loss of rewards, not loss of salvation, but the next part speaks of yet he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire, which shows that it will not touch his salvation. And I still feel many are twisting what I am saying and are not understanding, or maybe in some cases do not want to, i do not know, but anyhow I want to believe the whole council of the word, nothing added or taken away. And remember that it says saved as by fire, at the end. And I can see that people are saying that I am saying that this whole chapter is on sin, that is baloney. And one thing we have to remember is that sanctification flows from salvation. I do not know why the judgment of God part is being ignored in 1 Peter, which we get chastised of the Lord for our sins, not for being persecuted for doing well. Yes our faith gets tried and tested in persecution, but that is not the judgment of God. Why not discuss this part as well, instead of just saying I am right and you are wrong. Yes our faith gets tried and tested in persecution, but that is not the judgment of God
OH but according to the Words of truth , my friend , IT IS THE JUDGMENT of GOD . in both cases , when some err God will bring sickness just as paul said . AND also our tribulations which we are appointed unto . Go read second thess first chapter . Tis the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT of GOD that we suffer such things to be counted worthy of the KINGDOM for which we suffer . Read corinthains too , I think second Corinthians , for this cause many of you are sick and some sleep . OH YES . Let us feast on the scriptures , REJOICE GILLER , REJOICE , its good for us to learn the truth . You just leap up and rejoice and go read those passages .
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Post by Giller on Feb 28, 2019 11:40:08 GMT -5
Rev 3:14-19
(14) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
(15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
(16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
(17) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
(18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
(19) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Someone who is cold as i see it, is an unbeliever.
Someone who is hot, is in Christ, he is on fire for the Lord.
Someone who is lukewarm, is trying to mix Christ wit the ways of this world, which cannot be done.
It mentions how they say i am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing, which reminds me of the prosperity gospel, but I think it even surpasses just it referring to the faith movement prosperity gospel, because there are many who may not subscibe to the faith movement doctrine, but are as much into thinking that riches itself is a form of godliness.
There are people in every denomination who are materialistic minded, who covet riches and so on.
These lukewarm people need to repent, or else God will spue them out of his mouth, which will lead to hell.
Now God gives them a chance at repentance, but ultimately they need to repent.
I believe there are some people still saved in these prosperity gospel churches, but ultimately they need to be warned of this gospel and need to come out, because it is a very, very, very dangerous gospel.
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Post by Giller on Feb 28, 2019 11:49:32 GMT -5
Well there are times we go through things as a result of our sins, and other times we go through things as a result of us standing on the ways of righteousness.
Now the Corinthians verse I do agree, is talking about chastisement, and a type of judgment.
1Co 11:27-32 (27) Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. (28) But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. (29) For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (30) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (31) For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (32) But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
But the Thessalonians scripture has to be carefully read, with what the word token means, and the following train of thought, about how it is a righteous thing for God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you, and to also read what it says afterwards.
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