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Post by Giller on Feb 28, 2019 12:00:44 GMT -5
I think the main disagreement is more in the sense of what certain words mean, but in the core of things, in what God does, I am glad that at least we are seeing the core things that God actually does.
God bless.
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Post by Giller on Feb 28, 2019 13:36:50 GMT -5
Here I am just explaining more how I see the Thessalonians scripture, so people understand more what I am saying.
If you disagree, and want to explain your view more, that is up to you.
2Th 1:4-10 (4) So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: (5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: (6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; (7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Now verse 10 seems to hint or point to the second coming.
The word token means indicator.
And to me it seems to be saying that persecution and tribulations, is a manifest indicator of the righteous judgment of God, in the sense that if you persecute his children, them that trouble you will also face tribulation, or face the righteous judgment of God.
See Godly persecutions is an indicator that God will avenge his children somewhere down the road.
And what does God call a righteous thing?
He calls him recompensing tribulation to them that trouble you a righteous thing, hence the righteous judgment of God.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 28, 2019 18:05:53 GMT -5
"Someone can be a Christian for 1 year and another for 20 years and get the same reward" is just like the story in the Scriptures, the parable where a man hires laborers in the morning for a denarius, hires some at heat of the day, and still others just before end of the day. But, they all received the same reward. I think in this case, when we repent, and get saved, we receive the same crown of life. There are other rewards of course because Scripture tells us there are different rewards. But like someone else said in this thread, when we go through the fire, we will know what sort of faith we had..... The crown of life is like reserved for a person when they repent and get saved, but it is given to them at the judgement if they endure till the end.
Can what butero just said , be found in scripture . YOU BET IT CAN . We know what paul and others said , BUT LETS ALSO LOOK at what GOD HIMSELF says to a church . LET NO MAN TAKE THY CROWN . Say what , you mean those crowns can be taken . YEP and false prophets are crown takers . for if a man starts out right but ends up under one of them , he wont get no crown on the day of the LORD . instead he will hear , DEPART FROM ME , I NEVER KNEW YOU . Time to get only more engrained n sound bible doctrine . YES , I say , ONLY MORE MORE MORE . Feed on it till thy belly is glowing with joy and more joy and utter peace . And hands up and praise the LORD .
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Post by frienduff on Feb 28, 2019 18:13:43 GMT -5
Here I am just explaining more how I see the Thessalonians scripture, so people understand more what I am saying. If you disagree, and want to explain your view more, that is up to you. 2Th 1:4-10 (4) So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: (5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: (6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; (7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Now verse 10 seems to hint or point to the second coming. The word token means indicator. And to me it seems to be saying that persecution and tribulations, is a manifest indicator of the righteous judgment of God, in the sense that if you persecute his children, them that trouble you will also face tribulation, or face the righteous judgment of God. See Godly persecutions is an indicator that God will avenge his children somewhere down the road. And what does God call a righteous thing? He calls him recompensing tribulation to them that trouble you a righteous thing, hence the righteous judgment of God. Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God
You seeing it wrong giller . part wrong anyway . Just read that one line a hundred times . SO THAT YOU MAY BE COUNTED WORTHY OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD . IT is Gods judgment . And the apostels knew it too . and token and sign are the same thing . so it could read it is the manifest SIGN Which fits with what they all said . ALL who live godly shall suffer persecution . REJOICE when you are persecuted , leap for joy , What is a SIGN or token that ONE is truly of CHRIST . What did paul say about those without chastisement . THEY bastards , not sons . Folks , ITS the righteous judgment of GOD that we MAY be COUNTED WORTHY of the KINGDOM for which we suffer . And the apostels REJOICED that they had been COUNTED WORTHY BY GOD to suffer persecution . Lets dig deep and The SPIRIT shall reveal the pure understanding in time . DIG giller and read no help books , JUST let the SPIRIT reveal what man often messes up . Put those hands up , Giller , PUT THEM UP and Praise the LORD . You are loved giller . Ol frienduff loves you too .
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Post by frienduff on Feb 28, 2019 18:22:10 GMT -5
TO THE LORD be all glory and to the LORD be all praise . OH let the peoples rejoice IN THE LORD . Let all with one voice sing praise unto the LORD . Let all with one mind serve the HOLY LORD . ITS WAR and the DELUSION comes , even now is it in the world and rising fuller and fuller . LET ALL LAMBS praise the LORD . We shall soon enter into what others have before us , I speak concerning real life and death hard core persecutions . He who endures to the end shall be saved . ONWARD in the LORD my friends , ONWARD FOR IN HIM IS THE VICOTRY and our faith in HIM is victory . Victory over the world , over the evils . STAND ON THE SOLID FOUDATION of CHRIST and let no man sway you . For many deceivers roam as waves of the sea roaring out deception upon deception , rebellion unto rebellion ,whose end will swift . Sound out truth to all , Point ONLY to CHRIST and not to man . Point only to TRUTH and not ideals . Strap on all the amour , and let each do a through daily inspection to ensure its ONLY the amour OF GOD and not of men we wear . For the armour of man can withstand nothing . But the AMOUR OF GOD , IS OF GOD and can withstand all that does come against it . HELMETS ON , chin straps tight , breasts plate fastened , loins with truth and the gospel of peace as boots . Its war and satans men and women are taking many captive . WHOM we must resist through our faith , not in men , BUT IN GOD alone .
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Post by Giller on Mar 1, 2019 0:05:57 GMT -5
Here is something to ponder upon.
Could the persecution of the righteous be as a compass, for the righteous judgment of God?
In the sense that if say they persecuted the church in this way, they will suffer this consequence, and if they persecuted the church that way , they will suffer such and such, and tribulation will be recompensed to them???
Something to ponder upon.
And it seems that the 2 views we are mentioning concerning this, are the 2 more popular views.
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Post by Giller on Mar 1, 2019 0:35:36 GMT -5
A little bit more on the lukewarm scriptures.
Rev 3:14-19 (14) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. (16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. (17) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: (18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. (19) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
One thing that is important to give heed to, is the parabolic language used in these verses.
Now concerning the cold, it is referring to unbelievers, which walk in dead works.
But notice that to the cold it does not say that God will spue them out of his mouth, why?
Well something cannot be spewed that is not in someone.
These people who were never in Christ, cannot be spewed out of Christ (metaphorically speaking), for they were never in him.
The cold is comprised of any unbeliever that was never in Christ, whether religious or not, whether drunkard, homosexual etc.
Now the hot, point to born again Christians which are on fire for the Lord, which their works are considered hot, these christians if they continue steadfast in faith until the end will never ever be spewed out of God's mouth (it is a parable of course).
Now concerning the lukewarm, a few things have to be considered, first of all, I want to mention other things, that will bring us back to this subject.
Now in the bible it mentions that in the last days some shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.
Now the only way to depart from the faith, is to first having been in the faith, which shows that these people were Christians at one time.
And then the bible speaks of a falling away (apostasy), which the only way to fall away from the faith, is to first be in the faith, which shows that these people who fell away, were Christians at one time.
So now we get to the lukewarm.
The only way for someone to be spewed out of God's mouth, is if they once were in him at one time.
The lukewarm who get spewed out of God's mouth, were once believers at one time, but will no longer be in Christ, once spewed out.
Being spewed out, represents no longer being in him.
And if they continue in that state until the end they will go to hell.
But God here gives them a warning to repent, and how many of the Laodiceans actually knew the state they were in? Only God knows, but he did give them a chance at repentance, but if they would not heed to this call of repentance, and if they would not allow God to bring them to a place of repentance, then, he would spew them out of his mouth, and they would no longer be in him.
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Post by Giller on Mar 1, 2019 0:46:10 GMT -5
The way I take the words scarcely saved, or saved , but as by fire, is in the sense that they just made it in. And it does not say the words scarcely, and as by fire for nothing. I do not think people realize how intertwined things really are. They do not suffer loss of reward for no reason, and often times one thing leads to another thing. As I said sanctification flows from salvation. And this next statement, I am saying as a side note. See every one grows at a different pace in the Lord, God sees the heart, and knows were a person is at, God does not judge as man judges. Someone can be a Christian for 1 year, and another for 20 years and get the same reward. And there is always a reason why someone may not be bearing much fruit. You can only harden your heart so long against the process of sanctification, to were it can affect your salvation, and can lead you to turn away from God. Things are a lot more intertwined than what we think, things tend to work together with each other, and one thing affects the other. "Someone can be a Christian for 1 year and another for 20 years and get the same reward" is just like the story in the Scriptures, the parable where a man hires laborers in the morning for a denarius, hires some at heat of the day, and still others just before end of the day. But, they all received the same reward. I think in this case, when we repent, and get saved, we receive the same crown of life. There are other rewards of course because Scripture tells us there are different rewards. But like someone else said in this thread, when we go through the fire, we will know what sort of faith we had..... Thanks for sharing your post, I have read of different rewards in the bible before, but have not studied much on it, but I do agree that at the end we will know what sort of faith we had. And other thoughts I had, is in the sense of, I think that God will look more at the quality of the work, rather than the quantity of the work, most likely in most cases. And then there is this to consider: 1Co 3:6-8 (6) I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. (7) So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. (8) Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. It seems to me that God puts he that planteth, and he that watereth on equal plain. And I know that even though someone may finally lead someone to the Lord, the planting of the seed is just as important, for the work started with the planting. And it is God that brings the increase of the seed in the end anyways. I think we will be surprised at the rewards we will receive or the lack thereof, and that God's ways were not our ways. And I think the main focus in this area should be to allow ourselves to be conformed to the image of Christ, so we can be the witness that he wants us to be. God bless.
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Post by frienduff on Mar 1, 2019 8:24:25 GMT -5
Here is something to ponder upon. Could the persecution of the righteous be as a compass, for the righteous judgment of God? In the sense that if say they persecuted the church in this way, they will suffer this consequence, and if they persecuted the church that way , they will suffer such and such, and tribulation will be recompensed to them??? Something to ponder upon. And it seems that the 2 views we are mentioning concerning this, are the 2 more popular views. And give unto her double , pour into her cup double . I think on this you are right as well . the cup which she poured unto the saints , gets double powered poured on her . I do see that connection giller . Also see this connection . It is Gods righteous judgment for us to suffer , but also remember that it is in our sufferings we grow . So it is what is best for us . God is looking out for us . And as Christ suffered the church will suffer too . Praise the LORD we wont taste death , FOR HE did that for us we may die but our soul is saved .
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Post by frienduff on Mar 1, 2019 8:27:04 GMT -5
"Someone can be a Christian for 1 year and another for 20 years and get the same reward" is just like the story in the Scriptures, the parable where a man hires laborers in the morning for a denarius, hires some at heat of the day, and still others just before end of the day. But, they all received the same reward. I think in this case, when we repent, and get saved, we receive the same crown of life. There are other rewards of course because Scripture tells us there are different rewards. But like someone else said in this thread, when we go through the fire, we will know what sort of faith we had..... Thanks for sharing your post, I have read of different rewards in the bible before, but have not studied much on it, but I do agree that at the end we will know what sort of faith we had. And other thoughts I had, is in the sense of, I think that God will look more at the quality of the work, rather than the quantity of the work, most likely in most cases. And then there is this to consider: 1Co 3:6-8 (6) I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. (7) So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. (8) Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. It seems to me that God puts he that planteth, and he that watereth on equal plain. And I know that even though someone may finally lead someone to the Lord, the planting of the seed is just as important, for the work started with the planting. And it is God that brings the increase of the seed in the end anyways. I think we will be surprised at the rewards we will receive or the lack thereof, and that God's ways were not our ways. And I think the main focus in this area should be to allow ourselves to be conformed to the image of Christ, so we can be the witness that he wants us to be. God bless. OH yes , for he that plants and he that waters , IT IS THE LORD . for no matter who plants or waters , ITS REALLY the work of Grace in them , which is The SPIRIT at work and tis the Spirit that can only give the increase . Truly no man can boast in himself , OH BUT HE CAN BOAST AND OUGHT BOAST IN THE LORD . Hands up giller , Hands up and praise the Lord
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Post by frienduff on Mar 1, 2019 8:28:51 GMT -5
OH man , look at the time , Yall what know what time it is , don't look at the clock , the time is speak of IS LORD PRAISING TIME . and that time exists no matter what time the hands of the clock are on . Put those hands up , my friends , raise them unto the LORD and let a flow of praises and rejoicing be unto the LORD .
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Post by Sister on Mar 1, 2019 9:28:12 GMT -5
Here is something to ponder upon. Could the persecution of the righteous be as a compass, for the righteous judgment of God? In the sense that if say they persecuted the church in this way, they will suffer this consequence, and if they persecuted the church that way , they will suffer such and such, and tribulation will be recompensed to them??? Something to ponder upon. And it seems that the 2 views we are mentioning concerning this, are the 2 more popular views. I think of Jesus. He was persecuted by his own people. Imagine that, the Word of God made flesh cast out of the kingdom of God ruled by "men". The church today who claims to be following Christ is persecuting the followers of Christ outside of their establishment. How are they persecuting them? Take a look at Worthy for example. But it's not only there it's everywhere. All it takes is to disagree or question their doctrine or show them something they didn't know. They don't like this. They will call you false and set you up to turn you into an outcast. I have experienced this so many times, and there comes a time when you decide that you don't want to be a part of that establishment, but only stay for the sake of a few. Yes, this does not go unnoticed by the Lord. Chastisement is coming starting with the house of God. It applies to all of us. It doesn't matter what we look like, or who we are. If anyone needs proof that we are serving Christ in truth it should be from our WORDS. We never saw Christ what he looked like, or the apostles, or the prophets, yet we believed ....from what they spoke.
Yes Giller, tribulation is coming to all those who cause trouble on the God fearing. A tribulation is coming, and it can be fiery for some and a breeze for others. We should pray for this mercy that we be not counted worthy of chastisement, but the Lord is fair and we should take our salvation with trembling and fear. This chastisement is to humble us and not take the Lord for granted. It is better to enter the kingdom with an eye missing than not enter at all.
God bless you, and may he have mercy on us all.
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Post by Giller on Mar 1, 2019 9:46:34 GMT -5
This is just to bring clarity, when I said this particular statement: "Someone can be a Christian for 1 year and another for 20 years and get the same reward" , I was not implying that all will get all the same rewards, for obviously some shall suffer loss, and some will have more rewards, but was saying that one can be a Christian for 1 year and another for 20 years and get the same reward, in the sense, were I was thinking in my mind, that in some cases (not all cases) this might be truly so.
But anyhow I am glad people did mention the crown of life, which I was not thinking about when I wrote this, but was truly thinking about rewards in general.
And I truly did not give thought to what the parable of the talents was referring to, I will have to look into it, but guys thanks for sharing, and bringing back to remembrance the crown of life.
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Post by Giller on Mar 1, 2019 12:34:02 GMT -5
1Co 3:13 (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Now I know that down here, that our faith now and again gets tried by the fires of persecution, but man's works being revealed by fire, in this scripture happens at the judgment seat of Christ, which shows that this particular fire cannot be the fires of persecution, for we won't be persecuted during the judgment seat of Christ.
I know that at times many refer the Holy Ghost with the word fire at times.
God uses many things to bring us to were we need to be, and not just persecution, and one thing I think people should look closer at is sanctification.
Right now I am not saying what the fire, in the saying revealed by fire, is meaning, just asking a question, because it gets revealed by fire not down here, but at Christ's judgment seat.
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Mar 1, 2019 13:46:38 GMT -5
1Co 3:13 (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. Now I know that down here, that our faith now and again gets tried by the fires of persecution, but man's works being revealed by fire, in this scripture happens at the judgment seat of Christ, which shows that this particular fire cannot be the fires of persecution, for we won't be persecuted during the judgment seat of Christ. I know that at times many refer the Holy Ghost with the word fire at times. God uses many things to bring us to were we need to be, and not just persecution, and one thing I think people should look closer at is sanctification. Right now I am not saying what the fire, in the saying revealed by fire, is meaning, just asking a question, because it gets revealed by fire not down here, but at Christ's judgment seat. there is also the refining fire. silver smith. purifying the silver... removing the dross. (sanctification)
the day however in that passage is hemera so my words may not be a good fit for that scripture.
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