PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 8, 2018 12:26:38 GMT -5
Since my question was ignored by the geniuses at you-know-where I figured I might have better luck asking about it here...
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues — Mark 16:17
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. — John 9:31-33
Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them. — John 9:16
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. — John 14:10-12
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. — 1 Corinthians 2:4-5
...
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. — Matthew 7:22-23
————
How can these things be?
I don’t have the “right answer” waiting in my back pocket. I’m honestly curious to see what you all think.
|
|
Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
|
Post by Cletus on Dec 8, 2018 13:30:50 GMT -5
I am not understanding what it is you are not understanding. could you explain a little more?
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 8, 2018 13:37:13 GMT -5
How are these people doing miracles if Jesus never knew them? The other verses all suggest that miracles are proof of God’s blessing.
|
|
|
Post by Abby-Joy on Dec 8, 2018 13:45:25 GMT -5
Great question! Maybe these verses are another piece of the puzzle...
John 6:26-29 26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
And what about this?
Ezekiel 33:11-18 11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his [righteousness] in the day that he sinneth. 13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15 [If] the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. 18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
If we look at Matthew 7:21 in context, Jesus is talking about good fruit and evil fruit.
Matthew 7:18-23 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
So maybe, it's in their fruit. So believing and using the name of Jesus isn't enough. As the verses in Ezekiel explain, we could start out well and do all these works in His name, and then begin to place our trust in those works... and become spiritually lazy and begin to commit sin. I know He said, "I never knew you" .... but when you look at other scriptures, it says that our righteousness that we committed will not be remembered if we turn back to our sin. So it would be as if He never knew us. I'm beginning to see the word "remember" in a whole different light, I think.
|
|
Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
|
Post by Cletus on Dec 8, 2018 15:28:49 GMT -5
How are these people doing miracles if Jesus never knew them? The other verses all suggest that miracles are proof of God’s blessing. I think a good place to consider in the bible would be the church at corinth. they had the gifts moving... but look at what was reported as going on in the church as far as sin. they were getting a lot of things upside down at corinth. There are lots of scriptures that tell us if we love God we will keep His commands. and in the scripture you mentioned it says i never knew you, depart from me, ye who work iniquity. I think the last part about iniquity is a big clue. I have seen christians in ministry, even preachers who preached a good sermon on sundays, but they struggled with porn/lust. our sin does not always immediately cut us off from God. some times He lets us go a ways off the path before it shuts down spiritually for us. What i believe God is saying here is I never knew you= I never approved of your conduct. there are many christians today that believe they are going to be saved forever no matter what. this is why i detest OSAS. the end of that teaching says i dont really have to be saved from my sin to be saved, when God saved us from our sin... our sin is what brings death and separates us from God.
1Co 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
and if the bible tells us there was five wise virgins and five foolish, the five wise trimmed their lamps... trimmed holds very significant meaning in the greek. cosmeo... it means to adorn, embellish beautify... and set in order. this part is speaking to our spiritual house. or hearts condition towards God.
Jesus told us if we do not abide in him... those branches are cast into the fire.
those who are spiritually content, those who are riding the fence... God will spew them out because they are luke warm. no one likes room temperature drinks... either cold or hot is whats refreshing. and we are to be that refreshing drink to others.
not everyone who professes Christ will make it in those pearly gates. many today are hearers only, not doers.
The NT tells us many are chosen but few are called... Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. but in revelation it says those who are with Him are also faithful.
we need to take the whole fear and trembling thing very serious. Jesus said go and sin no more. Many today want to be friends with the world, but we are supposed to stand out like a candle in the center of a room.
the gift of God is eternal life... and what is life, just existing? we are known by our fruits. Life is about HOW you live.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 8, 2018 18:22:37 GMT -5
Everyone is welcome to continue adding feedback here! I’m no expert. But, I do have a few theories on what this could mean.
Option 1: The people in Matthew 7 said “we” in the collective sense of a social class/denomonation/clique which was presumed to be favored by God. This is possible but not what I consider likely.
Option 2: (more likely in my opinion) Not every lost person is a viciously wicked psychopath. People can be morally good, God-fearing, perhaps even praying sometimes, but not have the actual experience of spiritual regeneration.
Please consider these examples...
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. — Acts 17:23
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. — Acts 10:1-6
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. — Acts 16:14
King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest. Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. —Acts 26:27-28
A God-fearing person who attends a powerful church service might be able to feel the Holy Spirit moving, and evil spirits confronted in this service might choose to flee, and a seeker who prays hard enough for healing might get healed because God is trying to get their attention, and then that person can go home without doing any serious repenting. In other words, an unregenerate person in a strong spiritual service might be able to participate simply because of the atmosphere. However, they would not be able to initiate ministry if they were alone. But the excitement of that service might convince them they are in good standing with God.
The gospels are full of stories of Roman officials, Samaritans, etc, who were essentially pagans, who had enough sense to ask Jesus for healing. If we honor Jesus, we can get a response from Him, but not necessarily be born again.
Anyway, this would be my best attempt at an explanation.
|
|
Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
|
Post by Cletus on Dec 8, 2018 19:16:19 GMT -5
just because someone is saved dont mean they know God. The Fear of The Lord is the beginning of knowledge. I was saved for awhile before I knew what The fear of The LORD is. there are a whole lot of christians out there who have never experienced this. many people think they have experienced all there is once they have the born again experience. we can have as much of God as we want... but we must seek Him, pursue Him. I prayed for two years constantly just to hear God speak... even just one word. Once He did speak, it was way more than i was expecting.
even many pastors these days think once you are born again thats all there is to it. the preaching they do reflects this also.
|
|
|
Post by Abdicate on Dec 8, 2018 19:18:02 GMT -5
Since my question was ignored by the geniuses at you-know-where I figured I might have better luck asking about it here... And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues — Mark 16:17
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. — John 9:31-33
Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them. — John 9:16
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. — John 14:10-12
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. — 1 Corinthians 2:4-5
...
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. — Matthew 7:22-23
———— How can these things be? I don’t have the “right answer” waiting in my back pocket. I’m honestly curious to see what you all think.
What better way but to keep your potential enemy thinking they're in the war?
They don't know the truth so the play truth. The devil is more than capable of providing lying wonders. If one says to a possessed person, the demon in that person can play dead like a possum until the coast is clear. Mediums get thing correct sometimes just by the law of averages, but then those with a real demon and are used by the devil to provide a "prophecy" and then the devil "fulfills" the prophecy. All smoke and mirrors. Remember, it is those lost playing Christian that asks, "But we did..." but it wasn't of the Lord. There are a lot more of them than real Christians and we can thank Billy Graham for that. There is a lot of cause and effect that is frequently ignored. Just my thoughts. I'll post a thread with some cause and effect that'll keep you watching the news differently.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 8, 2018 19:27:16 GMT -5
just because someone is saved dont mean they know God. The Fear of The Lord is the beginning of knowledge. I was saved for awhile before I knew what The fear of The LORD is. there are a whole lot of christians out there who have never experienced this. many people think they have experienced all there is once they have the born again experience. we can have as much of God as we want... but we must seek Him, pursue Him. I prayed for two years constantly just to hear God speak... even just one word. Once He did speak, it was way more than i was expecting. even many pastors these days think once you are born again thats all there is to it. the preaching they do reflects this also. I would agree. Just like you can learn much about theology without being born again, you can likewise repent of your sins and have that spiritual experience without knowing any good doctrine. One does not automatically lead to the other. What you describe is a problem that drove my hubby away from church for years. All I need to do is get saved... okay, I did that, what next... how do I get delivered from bondage... how do I stand up to temptation... how do I get along with my parents... oh, you have no answers?... you’re back on the topic of getting people saved?... but I’m drowning over here... He gave up on church after a while. He loved God the whole time but couldn’t figure out how to connect with Him.
|
|
Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
|
Post by Cletus on Dec 8, 2018 19:44:04 GMT -5
just because someone is saved dont mean they know God. The Fear of The Lord is the beginning of knowledge. I was saved for awhile before I knew what The fear of The LORD is. there are a whole lot of christians out there who have never experienced this. many people think they have experienced all there is once they have the born again experience. we can have as much of God as we want... but we must seek Him, pursue Him. I prayed for two years constantly just to hear God speak... even just one word. Once He did speak, it was way more than i was expecting. even many pastors these days think once you are born again thats all there is to it. the preaching they do reflects this also. I would agree. Just like you can learn much about theology without being born again, you can likewise repent of your sins and have that spiritual experience without knowing any good doctrine. One does not automatically lead to the other. What you describe is a problem that drove my hubby away from church for years. All I need to do is get saved... okay, I did that, what next... how do I get delivered from bondage... how do I stand up to temptation... how do I get along with my parents... oh, you have no answers?... you’re back on the topic of getting people saved?... but I’m drowning over here... He gave up on church after a while. He loved God the whole time but couldn’t figure out how to connect with Him. and this is why we have such a high turn over, why people leave the church, why people are not as successful walking with God... ministers are concerned with adding souls to the kingdom but we dont here much about making disciples or christian living. the most instructions i got for how to live is when i got hands laid on me... i was told go home throw away all your secular music, and just pray and praise. I was told get rid of all the posters on my walls of bands, and to throw away anything thats worldly. but even then nothing about repentance and living holy. this is also why we have so many false teachings. I read this day by a mod on "you know where" we are not saved from our sins.... what? then what are we saved from? the whole reason Jesus died was to pay the penalty for our sin that we cant possibly pay. I didnt even bother to comment because its obvious people are content to just accept Jesus and believe on Him. a two year old can eat meat, ya know.
|
|
|
Post by Sister on Dec 8, 2018 20:03:45 GMT -5
The only thing I can think of is that they "thought" they were prophesying in Christ's name, but in actual fact unaware they were prophesying according to a different spirit.
Same thing with casting out devils. It "appeared" that they were cast out, but in actual fact they remained. The devils have had a fun time with them "pretending" these people had power over them. They are playing a game (Satan's host),...keeping them in false security so that they stay there in that church or belief system. Those wonderful works were not really done through the holy spirit, it was just a copycat scenario. A delusion,...trickery. Satan can copy anything, but one thing he cannot copy is the truth.
The truth is known through the doctrine we received from the holy scriptures and not from men. Observing their doctrine is the best and only way to test if we are not sure. If we have received a tainted doctrine will shall not know, but the Lord knows who belongs to him, and who has his word abiding in them. He knows his sheep, whether they care for truth first and foremost or desire all these other things to appear holy in front of men.
|
|
|
Post by 2fw8212a on Dec 8, 2018 20:16:37 GMT -5
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. — Matthew 7:22-23
———— How can these things be? I don’t have the “right answer” waiting in my back pocket. I’m honestly curious to see what you all think. I believe a good example to explain of what Jesus meant in that verse is Judas (the betrayer).
Remember, Judas was "following" Jesus for the whole time but his words (truth) never found a place in his heart.
"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." - Matthew 7:26-27
"I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you." - John 8:37
"He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God." - John 8:47
Christians who are following the same path are those who say: Lord, Lord and are living in sin (deception).
"Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame." - 1 Corinthians 15:34
"...Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me..." - Isaiah 29:13
"...unless you repent you will all likewise perish." - Luke 13:3
|
|
|
Post by Giller on Dec 9, 2018 0:28:40 GMT -5
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. — Matthew 7:22-23
God never knew these specific men at any time, and it was these men proclaiming to do these works and not God.
Any one can use the name of Jesus, but what Jesus are they talking about?
2Co 11:4 (4) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
And then there is the sons of Sceva:
Act 19:13-16 (13) Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. (14) And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. (15) And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? (16) And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
But concerning the people who claimed to do things in the name of Jesus, whom God never knew, I think that Sister gave a very good answer.
They are made to believe they are used of God, but are being tricked.
Today I think of people like Todd Bentley who use the name of Jesus, but all kinds of false miracles happen through men like him.
And God knows who he never knew at any time, and who he once knew, but no longer knows.
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 12, 2018 7:26:26 GMT -5
Since my question was ignored by the geniuses at you-know-where I figured I might have better luck asking about it here... And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues — Mark 16:17
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. — John 9:31-33
Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them. — John 9:16
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. — John 14:10-12
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. — 1 Corinthians 2:4-5
...
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. — Matthew 7:22-23
———— How can these things be? I don’t have the “right answer” waiting in my back pocket. I’m honestly curious to see what you all think. A couple of those verses are simply telling you things people were arguing over using man's wisdom. They were really said, but were not divine truth. If you throw them out and don't look at them as doctrinal truth, but only an account of what was said, it makes sense.
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 12, 2018 7:31:20 GMT -5
How are these people doing miracles if Jesus never knew them? The other verses all suggest that miracles are proof of God’s blessing. Thanks for clarifying that, because I missed that point. Those were the words people were saying to God. Were they legitimate miracles? I have no idea. I don't know if they believed they had performed miracles or if they only had an appearance of doing miracles. We have a lot of people going around supposedly doing miracles that are not real. The anti-Christ will do things that appear to be genuine heaven sent miracles. That may be where the answer lies, but I am not certain.
|
|