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Post by Sister on Dec 12, 2018 7:46:51 GMT -5
Paul calls them "lying wonders".
There's a good chance he may use technology to deceive.
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
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Post by John on Dec 12, 2018 8:23:29 GMT -5
Paul calls them "lying wonders". There's a good chance he may use technology to deceive. 2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
I believe the government was testing this type of technology years ago, making it appear a massive UFO was hovering over Phoenix, Arizona. Many saw it. It was reported in the newspaper, but no radar detected it's presence.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 8:58:38 GMT -5
Okay I’m not trying to disagree with you all. I’m definitely aware of the enemy’s ability to perform deceptive miracles. But it does raise a few more questions.
1) If these people confessed Jesus, called Him Lord, and prophesied in His name, why would Jesus allow demonic miracles to continue to deceive them?
2) They asked Jesus “have we not” which was a challenge to say if they hadn’t. Why did He not say the miracles were fake?
3) How can anyone have assurance of salvation of you can call Him Lord and prophesy in His name but it’s all an illusion?
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Post by John on Dec 12, 2018 9:24:44 GMT -5
Okay I’m not trying to disagree with you all. I’m definitely aware of the enemy’s ability to perform deceptive miracles. But it does raise a few more questions. 1) If these people confessed Jesus, called Him Lord, and prophesied in His name, why would Jesus allow demonic miracles to continue to deceive them? 2) They asked Jesus “have we not” which was a challenge to say if they hadn’t. Why did He not say the miracles were fake? 3) How can anyone have assurance of salvation of you can call Him Lord and prophesy in His name but it’s all an illusion? The 7 sons of Sceva used Jesus' name, but didn't know him. That is a good question, and something we should probably explore further. I just came across your question this morning while trying to catch up on posts I missed. Cletus made a good point about people who had been saved, but went back into sin. You could have people that prayed a sinner's prayer, had an OSAS view, and possessed spiritual gifts. The gifts and callings are without repentance, so you could conceivably do miracles in Jesus' name and become a castaway.
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 10:12:46 GMT -5
The sons of Sceva tried to use the name of Jesus as a magic wand, and it didn’t go very well. Evil spirits don’t automatically relent in order to keep a fraud in deception.
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Post by Giller on Dec 12, 2018 10:44:01 GMT -5
Okay I’m not trying to disagree with you all. I’m definitely aware of the enemy’s ability to perform deceptive miracles. But it does raise a few more questions. 1) If these people confessed Jesus, called Him Lord, and prophesied in His name, why would Jesus allow demonic miracles to continue to deceive them? 2) They asked Jesus “have we not” which was a challenge to say if they hadn’t. Why did He not say the miracles were fake? 3) How can anyone have assurance of salvation of you can call Him Lord and prophesy in His name but it’s all an illusion? Mat 7:21-23 (21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 1.Verse 21 tells us that someone can say unto Jesus Lord, Lord, and not enter into the kingdom of God. 2.And these people were saying that they were doing such and such, in Christ's name, and not Jesus. 3.Verse 23 shows that they were never known at any time by God. It had to have been deceitful miracles, and the bible shows demons can do miracles, such as Pharaoh's men making a snake appear.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 10:50:36 GMT -5
Right, but again, the problem is that Pharoah’s men were not confessing to be Christians. Does the Bible show us an example of a prophecy/healing/deliverance that was done in Jesus name by someone who called Him Lord, was apparently a success, yet turned out to be a demonic magic trick?
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 10:56:34 GMT -5
And if a professing Christian minister is capable of performing demonic magic tricks, then why did Paul rely on his demonstrations of power to build the church in Corinth? And why did Jesus tell the discples to believe Him on account of miracles? If we can’t trust a demonstration of power from a Christian preacher, then what was the faith of the Corinthians built on? They didn’t know anything about doctrine or theology to judge Paul by another means. So were they just lucky enough to encounter a real Christian?
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Post by John on Dec 12, 2018 11:03:40 GMT -5
Right, but again, the problem is that Pharoah’s men were not confessing to be Christians. Does the Bible show us an example of a prophecy/healing/deliverance that was done in Jesus name by someone who called Him Lord, was apparently a success, yet turned out to be a demonic magic trick? Not that I am aware of, but I would have to assume Judas Iscariot performed miracles in Jesus' name but didn't get to heaven. I see your point about no scripture to support frauds doing fake miracles in Jesus' name, yet we know people do that today. I was thinking along the lines of a faith healer praying over the sick and declaring them well, when maybe they weren't, or perhaps they were really healed by their own faith. The minister may have been as corrupt and fake as Elmer Gantry.
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Post by John on Dec 12, 2018 11:10:37 GMT -5
And if a professing Christian minister is capable of performing demonic magic tricks, then why did Paul rely on his demonstrations of power to build the church in Corinth? And why did Jesus tell the discples to believe Him on account of miracles? If we can’t trust a demonstration of power from a Christian preacher, then what was the faith of the Corinthians built on? They didn’t know anything about doctrine or theology to judge Paul by another means. So were they just lucky enough to encounter a real Christian? It is like the difference between the magicians in Egypt and Moses or Simon the sorcerer and Paul. Frauds can only do so much. David Copperfield does amazing tricks, and if a fake preacher knew magic, he could fool some people. I think the answer lies among all the answers you got. What do you think is the answer, or are you genuinely perplexed?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 11:30:05 GMT -5
These are my personal thoughts on this issue. I’m not exalting this as a perfect answer, but it makes the most sense to me...
— It’s possible to be a God-fearing person who shows reverence to Jesus, and thus gain access to do things that glorify Him, yet not be spiritually regenerated. Kind of like the Roman officials whose children Jesus healed because they had enough sense to honor Him.
— A seeker or “worldly Christian” may get a prayer answered because God is trying to speak to them.
— A Christian who attends a miracle service in childlike faith might get their miracle because they were honestly contending for it, and the preacher involved may indeed have been irrelevant.
Therefore it’s possible for these signs to follow anyone who “believes” but is not necessarily a new spiritual creature.
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 11:40:13 GMT -5
Also, given the thing we see about the unpardonable sin, I’m extremely reluctant to label things as witchcraft just because I don’t like the preacher doing it. I don’t think it’s wise to say anyone beyond our doctrinal scope must be using magic to deceive people. I think it’s far more likely a case of Jesus using flawed people to help those in torment while trying to reveal Himself.
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Post by frienduff on Dec 12, 2018 11:56:32 GMT -5
How are these people doing miracles if Jesus never knew them? The other verses all suggest that miracles are proof of God’s blessing. Thanks for clarifying that, because I missed that point. Those were the words people were saying to God. Were they legitimate miracles? I have no idea. I don't know if they believed they had performed miracles or if they only had an appearance of doing miracles. We have a lot of people going around supposedly doing miracles that are not real. The anti-Christ will do things that appear to be genuine heaven sent miracles. That may be where the answer lies, but I am not certain.
Cletus got it spot on. Even paul who spoke withtongues more than them all and had even preached the gospel more than them all, SAID if I keep not my body under sujection . TO CHRIST . Then he could too be cast out . Also remember God allows miracles and wonders to deceive . In fact simeon had some kinds of miracles . And also this , who deceived THEM by the means of those miracles he had power to do n the sight of the beast . IT all boils down to what JESUS said . Marvel not that you have power over the scorpions and etc , REJOICE RATHER that your names are wrote above. JESUS had SEEN satan fall from heaven. Satan had been given many gifts, ONLY HIS PRIDE Caused himself to be exalted IN HEART . We got an all out war coming and their will be many false ones doing many miracles , and folks will be fallng for it , as they always have . ITS ALL ABOUT TWO THINGS . LOVE THE LORD thy GOD with all thy heart , mind , soul, AND IF A MAN loves GOD HE LOVES CHRIST and if a man LOVES CHRIST , HE LOVES ALL HIS SAYINGS . THIS is the true love that comes from GOD and from that love we THEN see how to love our neighbor as ourself . Now how bout everyone just leap up and praise the LORD .
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Post by frienduff on Dec 12, 2018 12:04:08 GMT -5
Also, given the thing we see about the unpardonable sin, I’m extremely reluctant to label things as witchcraft just because I don’t lile the preacher doing it. I don’t think it’s wise to say anyone beyond our doctrinal scope must be using magic to deceive people. I think it’s far more likely a case of Jesus using flawed people to help those in torment while trying to reveal Himself. This is why I say , EXAMINE THIER DOCTRINE . I don't accuse by their miracles , I ATTACK their FALSE DOCTRINE . FOR that is what will surely show WHO THEY FOLLOW . I mean the false men brought in the Toronto dog barking miracles . We know the SPIRIT don't behave like that . BUT AGAIN who broght this in , THE ALREADY MEGA FALSE ONES DID . Examine their doctrine and this will show you . ALWAYS examine the DOCTRINE a man brings . IT will show you , coupled with his actions , WHO HE REALLY FOLLOWS . Miracles can be done by the evil and the good . BUT If a man comes denying JESUS , twisting doctrine , omitting or changing JESUS sayings , REST assured you got a dangerous man of belial in those pulpits . YE may not know them by their miracles < BUT BY THIER FRUITS YE SHALL SURELY KNOW THEM . OH YES .
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 12:09:29 GMT -5
Please allow me to submit Exhibit A: I Corinthians 13. Paul said a person may speak the tongues of men and angels, have “all knowledge” and be able to move mountains, yet having nothing to show for it because there’s no love. He didn’t say those who lack love can’t really speak in tongues; he actually said you can speak in tongues while doing no good. You can understand all knowledge and mysteries — apparently for real — yet be useless. That chapter doesn’t say they were all fake signs.
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